Audio for 8 people indoors

jrusso said:

Thus, you didn't really read. You just commented on my post, out of context. ...
I told him that the "step better" option of using a boom operator was a worse scenario than planting one mic in the middle of the room.

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You are the one not reading properly and not getting the context! The context is simple: Yes, you're right to point out that a single boomed mic is very unlikely to produce usable results but your suggestion is NOT a "step better", it's a step sideways! The end result will still almost certainly be unusable audio as well!

jrusso said:

Once again, I was merely giving advice to improve the situation.

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That's the point you don't seem to be reading/getting. Your advice reduces the audio post nightmare of trying to deal with the issue of a boomed mic not being positioned fast/accurately enough on the speaking gamer, with the audio post nightmare of a shitty SNR. In other words, your suggestion will change the situation in audio post but it will NOT "improve the situation"!

Sweetie's analogy was an apt one: "It'd be akin to, "I need to project this in Imax but I must use this VHS cam from the 80's to shoot with, how do I do it?" The answer is: Don't." ... Exactly, that would be my answer too, but your advice is effectively; "get a different 80's VHS cam and position it further away".

jrusso said:

Also, you mention an "untreated" room. I gave advice for that in an earlier post.

1. Carpet on the floors
2. Black Blankets hanging in and off frame. (The black is for appearance only)

Don't need to cover 100% of the walls. The rule of thumb is 70%.

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Will this advice improve the situation? By reducing sound reflections, yes, it will. Will your advice improve the SNR enough to overcome the issue of having a single cardioid mic a considerable distance from the subjects and therefore result in usable sound? Nope, not even close! ... BTW, there is no 70% "rule of thumb" for blankets, carpets or even purpose designed acoustic treatments.

jrusso said:

...with all ambient noises reduced by turning off all computers, AC, refrigerator, etc.

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Again, you're not reading what I wrote! You CANNOT turn off all the ambient noises necessary to make your suggestion work. You cannot turn off room tone, you cannot stop 9+ people from moving or breathing, you cannot turn off the camera, you cannot stop the traffic, weather or other external noise, etc.! And, you cannot turn off the mic or pre-amp internal self-noise, both of which are also going to be many times higher than normal because of the very significantly higher gain which would be required to overcome the distance between mic and subjects!

OP: The cheapest solution which is likely to result in usable sound is Alcove's suggestion of using gamer headsets, although there might be a problem trying to record 8 independent USB streams. There is no one mic solution in this scenario, either because of the difficulty of moving/positioning a boom or of SNR distance issues with a plant mic! Something which hasn't been mentioned is stereo mic'ing. I'd usually suggest avoiding stereo mic'ing for recording dialogue but stereo mic'ing would allow the mic's to be closer to the subjects than a single plant mic and therefore reduce it's main issue of distance induced poor SNR. Stereo mic'ing certainly won't get you good sound but *might* get you good enough. You would need to use a near-coincident (XY pair with maybe a slightly greater than 90deg angle of incidence or maybe an ORTF pair) stereo mic'ing pattern, very carefully positioned (through testing) and as much acoustic room absorption (sound blankets) as you can fit into the room! It's still a fairly small chance of success but a better chance than a single mic and therefore might be worth the time to test it out.

G

AudioPostExpert... Your username is a big, "pffft... as if!"

70% Wall coverage... Not blankets... I'm too exhausted to keep up with explaining myself to someone who clearly doesn't know what they're doing. Geesh

Watch this video, https://vimeo.com/122176443, and at 02:45, when my daughter turns around, the mic is over me, nearly 20 ft away from her position, however, I got usable audio from her. If you're a "Post Expert" as your name suggests, you'd know how to tame transients and remove background noise using inexpensive Noise Reduction software such as Izotope RX. The mic is a Rode M3 with the gain boosted by +20db, captured on a Tascam HDP2.

Next fallacy please.

So let me get this straight, you've recorded and processed one scripted SHOUTED line from a child alone in a room from about 20ft away and you're comparing that to 8 people engaged in unscripted normal level conversations in a room with at least one computer. Have you even heard of SNR? And you accuse me of fallacy? Please, stick to being a cowboy and leave audio advice to those who actually know something about audio!

G

AudioPostExpert said:

So let me get this straight, you've recorded and processed one scripted SHOUTED line from a child alone in a room from about 20ft away and you're comparing that to 8 people engaged in unscripted normal level conversations in a room with at least one computer. Have you even heard of SNR? And you accuse me of fallacy? Please, stick to being a cowboy and leave audio advice to those who actually know something about audio!

G

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It's usable audio. She wasn't shouting. The mic was in a hall, not even in the same room. I accomplished what sFoster can also accomplish with just one mic, and he won't have to keep the mic as far away as mine was.

Yes, I know what Signal to Noise Ratio is. That's why the audio of my daughter was clean in Post.

Clearly, by your attitude with me in this thread, you must be an EXPERT of such high quality that you wouldn't have to fight with someone on IndieTalk... Doh!!!

Audio Post Expert? Pfffft!!!

sfoster...

Is there any reason why they cannot sit close together in a semi-circle of sorts? If you do that, you can bring the one mic closer to the subjects and they will sound even better.

Anyway, if you have access to 4 mics and 4 tracks, then you can drastically improve your overall sound. I highly suggest that route.

More importantly, for your best Post Production quality, I'd focus on making sure your captures are done in 24bit, and not on your camera. This way when you apply Noise Reduction, compressor, and any other effects, your final dither back to 16bit is able to capture any rounding errors and use the excess data to fill those holes created by the rounding errors. This final step of post audio is even MORE important than what room, capture device, microphone config, etc... was used.

jrusso said:

Is there any reason why they cannot sit close together in a semi-circle of sorts? If you do that, you can bring the one mic closer to the subjects and they will sound even better.

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No, they will sound even more off axis!

Your daughter's main line was not "clean in post" and the first un-shouted line was barely audible, another sad reflection of your audio knowledge. What's even more sad is that by continuing to give poor advice and arguing with those who know something about audio, you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself and at the same time doing the opposite of helping the OP. Do us all a favour, including yourself (!) and give it a rest.

G

AudioPostExpert said:

No, they will sound even more off axis!

Your daughter's main line was not "clean in post" and the first un-shouted line was barely audible, another sad reflection of your audio knowledge. What's even more sad is that by continuing to give poor advice and arguing with those who know something about audio, you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself and at the same time doing the opposite of helping the OP. Do us all a favour, including yourself (!) and give it a rest.

G

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Lol, that's why everyone laughs when they see her deliver her line. Because it's inaudible. Lol

Post Audio Expert? Pfffft.

Let's see your credentials. Imdb? Soundcloud? Website? Anything that proves you are the expert you claim to be?

FYI - Greg (AudioPostExpert) is highly experienced professional who owns his own mix facility and who also teaches sound-for-picture and other audio courses. I'll leave it to him to supply the specific credits.

And just because someone has an IMDB credit these days doesn't mean anything, since every short with a budget of 69¢ has an IMDB page.

Having minimal IMDB credits doesn't mean anything at all either. I have literally many dozens of "credits" for which I was never credited; that's part and parcel to the freelancer game. Whomever contracts me to do the work gets the credit - I get paid. And there are many others who just never bother updating their IMDB page once they start shooting.

My personal personal niche is low/no/mini/micro budget projects, so I hear LOTS of crappy production sound; I've spent thousands upon thousands of hours attempting to make production tracks that are clean, intelligible and cohesive. And I agree with Greg; your "advice" does not come from a professional or even experienced amateur perspective. Your "trick" with one line does not an experienced audio professional make. Once you have a few dozen successful shorts and a couple of features that got into (even minor) festivals under your belt then maybe you can argue with us.


Oh, and just to keep you happy here's a few of the credits I actually received:

Johnny Montana (2006) Feature - Directed by John Gavin
Sound Design, ReRecording Mixer
Honoree of Soundpost Award, Best Production Award, Best Feature Award
2006 Moondance International Film Festival

Silver Spotlight Award, Best Debut Feature, 2006 Australian International Film Festival

2006 San Francisco International, 2006 Newport Beach International, 2006 Palm Beach International,
2006 Queens International and 2006 Bahamas International Film Festivals



Magical Do-Re-Mi (UnCredited) (2005) Aired Saturdays on FOX Saturdays
Network Cartoon - 4Kids
Sound FX Editor



Moonshine (2005) Feature - Directed by Roger Ingraham
Audio Post
2006 Sundance Film Festival



Creating Karma (2005) Feature - Directed by Jill Wisoff
Audio Post, ReRecording Mixer
Best Feature Award 2008 Broad Humor Film Festival

2006 Coney Island Film Festival
2007 Portobello Film Festival, London, UK
2007 Gem City Film Festival
2008 Tomi Film Festival
2008 Broad Humor Film Festival, Los Angeles



ShadowGlade (2014) Series Pilot - Directed Ezra Peace
Sound Design, ReRecording Mixer



11 (Eleven) (2006) Feature - Directed by Neil McCay
Pre-Production Consultant, Sound Design, Associate Editor, ReRecording Mixer

Alcove Audio said:

My personal personal niche is low/no/mini/micro budget projects, so I hear LOTS of crappy production sound; I've spent thousands upon thousands of hours attempting to make production tracks that are clean, intelligible and cohesive.

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Great, I've never said a word against you, that I can think of.

Alcove Audio said:

And I agree with Greg; your "advice" does not come from a professional or even experienced amateur perspective. Your "trick" with one line does not an experienced audio professional make.

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Never said it did. Watch the whole video. I ran sound, without a boom op for every scene in the house, and I also captured all of the v.o. stuff in my studio. (The stuff on the "western" set was captured by a boom op) And even then, I'm not saying that this makes me an expert.

https://vimeo.com/122176443

Alcove Audio said:

Once you have a few dozen successful shorts and a couple of features that got into (even minor) festivals under your belt then maybe you can argue with us.

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I do have credits for sound mixing / mastering which have ended up in festivals. Check out my IMDB profile. http://www.imdb.me/justinrusso

I merely asked, "PostAudioExpert" for his credentials. From what I've read here, I've been unimpressed. So it's only fair to ask for something more than a username.

Alcove Audio said:

Oh, and just to keep you happy here's a few of the credits I actually received

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I never took issue with you, now or in previous posts, let's remain friends. Cool?

Alcove Audio said:

FYI - Greg (AudioPostExpert) is highly experienced professional who owns his own mix facility and who also teaches sound-for-picture and other audio courses. I'll leave it to him to supply the specific credits.

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...and I've worked with guys with much greater credentials than you and Greg, so please forgive me for not jumping to agreement when I'm being bashed for my opinions by you guys. I'm not the aggressor here, so I suggest a modicum of humility on everyone's part. It would make things much smoother for all of us.

AudioPostExpert said:

So let me get this straight, you've recorded and processed one scripted SHOUTED line from a child alone in a room from about 20ft away and you're comparing that to 8 people engaged in unscripted normal level conversations in a room with at least one computer.

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Sweetie already gave the solution to the "computer" argument earlier. Place the actual working computer in a separate room, and if there needs to be a PC on camera, you merely use a prop.

This is why I'm failing to believe in the "Expert" claim by you. It's a simple solution. Maybe you're just too set in your ways to think outside the box, but this is just a frustrating conversation really.

Question: On some 'group' gamer vids I've seen, there is little need to have more than 2 people talking at the same time. Depends on the game.

How many need to be talking at the same time and how much notice will you have of the switch?

gorillaonabike said:

Question: On some 'group' gamer vids I've seen, there is little need to have more than 2 people talking at the same time. Depends on the game.

How many need to be talking at the same time and how much notice will you have of the switch?

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No notice, it's all improv.