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How knowledgeable should directors be in cinematography?

Cinematographers - how knowledgeable/proficient should directors be in cinematography?

What about at the professional level, when larger budgets are involved? How about the indie level, when directors are making films on micro budgets (and probably won't be able to afford an experienced/well equipped cinematographer anyways)?

Are there any specific areas of cinematography that directors should focus on becoming proficient in, and others that can (and should) be left up to the cinematographer? Or should directors try to have a decent grasp of everything.

How much do you think a project suffers if a director is not well versed in cinematography? (once again, this can be different for projects with micro budgets and larger budgets). Generally speaking, do you prefer to work with directors who are heavily involved in cinematography, or directors who primarily focus on directing actors?
 
At the least you should be able to visualise the film in your head as a complete movie and yes, that means composition, camera moves, lighting, props, set design, costumes, FX and how it'll all cut together. The people you work with take their cues from you - they're waiting to do whatever you direct them to do and if you can't communicate your vision to them either verbally or through storyboards then they can't recreate it.

As a director you're bombarded with questions and choices that need to be made - and you have to be ready with answers for all of them because there's no time to waste when you're on set.
 
A new question: for directors who are just starting out in the true independent bracket, how feasible is it to hire a decent cinematographer, sound technician, and editor? Those three positions seem to be the most specialized skill-sets when making a film. Is this a realistic goal, or is it simply too expensive?

You get what you pay for, right? And sometimes, you pay, and you still don't get what you think you paid for.

If you're in school, and are surrounded by people who are also in school, and have time to lend you, you can form a team of people who have interests in the different aspects of filmmaking. Or you have to hire these people. But nobody is going to give you their expertise for free. Or very few will. It's unrealistic to believe you'll get people with skills of any significance, to work with you for little to no money. It could happen, but probably not.

If directors who try to hybridize and become a "jack of all trades" suffer by becoming a master at none, should they try to find DP's, sound techs, and editors to work with? Or at the low/no-budget stage, is it better for them to just take on those roles themselves and use it as a learning tool? Is the level of quality added to a film by hiring a no/low-budget/beginning DP worth the cost, when money is tight in the first place?

This relates to your original question. I'll give you my opinion only, and it will contradict what some others have said. I think as a director, you absolutely have to be a jack of all trades, and you don't have to be a master of anything at all. It's only my opinion, and an unprofessional opinion, so I'm probably wrong, but at my skill level (not very high), it works for me.

I don't want to be an expert on anything at the moment, but I want to know enough to figure out why we're doing things a certain way. For instance, let's say three people are talking in the next room, and I'm eavesdropping. How should I record the audio for this scene? Should the microphone be outside the room or inside the room. In the past, in a similar scenario, I kept the microphone outside the room. In my most recent shoot, I was told that I should record the audio near the subject, and play with the EQ in post to make the sound seem like it's coming from the room. So the sound guy gives me this advice, but he's not going to be with me in post, so how do I make this decision? Where do I put the microphone? You don't have to be an expert on sound/audio, but you have to have an idea of how sound waves travel, and why sound from another room, sounds different from sound that happens right next to you. So if you record right next to the subject, what sound waves need to be affected to make the recording sound distant in post?

As a director you have to make choices, and decisions all the time. That's your job. Do you want another take or not? Cut? Action? What do you want? You have to know if you want to use a 35mm or an 80mm. You dont' have to shoot it yourself, but you have to know why you want to use a certain lens, and at what aperture, and what the lighting needs to be given your camera, etc. You don't have to be an expert, but you have to know enough to understand why you want your audio or video guys to do things a certain way.

But the technical part is actually easy. You do it a few times. You make a few bad shorts, and it'll come to you, and the information will begin to stick. The hardest part of directing is organizing all these people to behave the way you want them to. If you want to use an 80mm lens and want a close-up of your actor, and your DP says, "we should do a closeup with the 35mm" you need to know which lens to go with. Neither of the decisions are wrong, but each will give you a different look, and it's really not up to the DP to decide the look. It's up to you to decide the look, and for your DP to help you get the look you want. The hard part is not knowing that you want the 80mm lens, but to know how to tell her that you want to go with the 80mm lens and not her idea of the 35mm lens, without offending her. Because, frankly speaking, everybody is offended all the time, by absolutely everything. (Edit: Chances are high that it's actually just me, who's offending everybody all the time, by almost everything I do.)

So I would suggest being a PA on other people's sets, to try to pick up as many skills as possible by watching other people, and figuring out why they do the things they do. You don't have to agree with their decisions. You can decide that you don't want to do things that way, but at least you get to understand why they're doing something. So before you make your movie, and hire people, help other people make their movies. It's the cheapest way to learn.
Cheers :)
 
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By Definition, a cinematographer is the director of the dop's. Becuae prior to the 80's dp's were camera operators and then they started shooting with multiple cameras... so Director should not know more than a cinematographer - by semantics.
 
I think as a director, you absolutely have to be a jack of all trades, and you don't have to be a master of anything at all.

Really? You don't think that as a director/aspiring director you ultimately have to be a master of Directing itself? I appreciate that at the no/lo budget level resource limitations means there maybe little/no practical alternative to being a "jack of all trades" but regardless of whether the decision is forced on you or just personal choice, being/becoming a "jack of all trades" precludes you from being a master of Directing!

I don't want to be an expert on anything at the moment, but I want to know enough to figure out why we're doing things a certain way. For instance, let's say three people are talking in the next room, and I'm eavesdropping. How should I record the audio for this scene? Should the microphone be outside the room or inside the room. In the past, in a similar scenario, I kept the microphone outside the room. In my most recent shoot, I was told that I should record the audio near the subject, and play with the EQ in post to make the sound seem like it's coming from the room. So the sound guy gives me this advice, but he's not going to be with me in post, so how do I make this decision? Where do I put the microphone? You don't have to be an expert on sound/audio, but you have to have an idea of how sound waves travel, and why sound from another room, sounds different from sound that happens right next to you. So if you record right next to the subject, what sound waves need to be affected to make the recording sound distant in post?

I'm sorry but I see this as a complete contradiction! On the one hand, you say that you don't "want to be an expert on anything at the moment" and then in the very next breath you're asking how to make specific expert decisions (mic placement). Then you've done exactly the same again, by stating that you don't need to be an expert on sound/audio and then stating that not only do you need a basic understanding of acoustics (the physics of how sound waves behave), which is a specialised field within the field of audio but that you need enough expertise to actually manipulate acoustics artificially in audio post?! I'm sure you're not deliberately trying to contradict yourself. I think you probably just don't realise you are making statements and asking questions which are "expert". For instance, the example you cited would not specifically be covered in the vast majority of audio production degree courses, so in a real sense you are talking about a level of expertise beyond degree level! There are very few professional/commercial directors who have more than a basic understanding of the audio issues you've raised and probably none at all who would actually know how to practically address them! This leads back to what I've said previously; gaining mastery of the art/skill of directing takes years, decades even. So why divert time/energy from gaining "directing" mastery by instead trying to gain a level of expertise in a field which at some point in your progression you are going to have to hand over to an actual expert in that field anyway?

BTW, if you actually want answers to the audio questions/example you posed, start another thread and I'll do my best to give you some useful pointers ... without going too far into PhD level acoustics/audio production! :)

As a director you have to make choices, and decisions all the time. That's your job. [1] Do you want another take or not? Cut? Action? What do you want? [2] You have to know if you want to use a 35mm or an 80mm.

I disagree:
1. No one person can concentrate on every aspect of the "shot" simultaneously. The director cannot therefore make a definitive decision on whether to do another take, Cut or Action! A good director will let their HODs monitor their departments and provide them with a feedback mechanism to participate in the decision, thereby leaving the director free to concentrate on the actors' performances and the overall aesthetic. Even then, it's still necessary to double check all the individual aspects and the overall aesthetic before moving on definitively, which is why dailes/rushes exist and are reviewed at the end of the shooting day.
2. As director you really don't need to know exactly what lens, aperture or mic placement is needed or why. What you do need is; a clear vision of the style, feel and meaning of the scene/shot you want to achieve and the ability to communicate that effectively to your HODs, as they are the only ones with enough expertise to present you with the most efficient/effective options of achieving your desired style/feel/meaning!

1. A new question: for directors who are just starting out in the true independent bracket, how feasible is it to hire a decent cinematographer, sound technician, and editor? Those three positions seem to be the most specialized skill-sets when making a film. Is this a realistic goal, or is it simply too expensive?

2. If directors who try to hybridize and become a "jack of all trades" suffer by becoming a master at none, should they try to find DP's, sound techs, and editors to work with? Or at the low/no-budget stage, is it better for them to just take on those roles themselves and use it as a learning tool? Is the level of quality added to a film by hiring a no/low-budget/beginning DP worth the cost, when money is tight in the first place?

1. In general it would just not be practical. Not only would it be expensive but to fulfil those roles well requires other supporting/collaborating specialists. For example, what is the point of hiring a good Production Sound Mixer (PSM, who is in charge of recording all your dialogue during filming)? Sure, you would get very good production sound but if you've then got an amateur: Dialogue Editor, Re-recording Mixer, Sound Designer, etc., then you're still going to end up with a relatively poor audio audio mix and in effect you'd have wasted some of the money you'd spent hiring a good PSM. Additionally, it would be more difficult to find a good PSM in the first place as they would be less inclined to work on a production knowing there was not going to be an equally high level of competence in audio post production, because it would reflect on their work/reputation. The same is true of the other two roles you mentioned.

2. There's no "right" answer to this question. It depends on where you want to get to, how you want to get there and your available resources. Some want to be talented amateur filmmakers, some want to be professional directors, some just want to make the best films they can and some want to achieve all three! ... For example, I've disagreed with Trueindie above but that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong! If his goal is to make the best film/s he can with his current resources, then his approach is most likely the best for him. The reason I disagree with him is because if he wants to be a professional director and/or his available resources change significantly then his approach will lead to less efficient and therefore worse filmmaking than could have been the case, because he has spent considerable time/effort acquiring skills/knowledge which would be useless, rather than dedicating his time/effort to the acquisition of specific directorial skills/knowledge. ... I would say that if you can find people to fulfil those roles with as much dedication and aptitude as you have, it would definitely be my advice to go that route. It seems to be extremely difficult in practise to find such people for all the required roles though. Many may appear to be dedicated and/or potentially talented but a while down the road they may focus on other areas of their life, find a new interest or otherwise leave you in a situation where it would be much easier and better to just do it yourself.

In other words, you could get 50 different answers to your question and they could all be right for their goals and circumstances but wrong (or right) for yours!

G
 
Really? You don't think that as a director/aspiring director you ultimately have to be a master of Directing itself? I appreciate that at the no/lo budget level resource limitations means there maybe little/no practical alternative to being a "jack of all trades" but regardless of whether the decision is forced on you or just personal choice, being/becoming a "jack of all trades" precludes you from being a master of Directing!

That's what I really am trying to say. That at the no/lo budget, things are different, you're doing everything. I write, I direct, I advertise to let people know that I'm making a movie, then I choose the people to work with, I audition, I cast, etc., etc. Not because I want to, but because I don't have an organization to do all this. So at the no/lo budget I have to be the Jack of all trades. If you guys remember, when hiring the audio guy, I came to this forum, asking for advice on how to hire a sound guy. And you guys gave me advice on what certain gear or certain things they wrote, imply about the sound guy. So before I decided which sound guy to hire, I had to spend time on figuring out which of these people I had never met was at a basic level, telling me the truth about their gear and expertise. I had to pull that trigger on who to work with.

I remember telling an audio guy at an interview that I wanted 1 boom and at least two lavs, and that person telling me that he had a recorder with four inputs. And I came to this forum to check, and you guys told me that only two of those four inputs on that particular recorder had pre-amps. In other words his recorder would not fulfill my needs of 1 boom and two lavs, as I would need a recorder with at least 3 pre-amps. I didn't know that. So now I have to know about pre-amps and recorders and all this other stuff I have no interest in.

That's what I mean by being a Jack of all Trades. It's a longer story, and I'm really expressing my particular experience. At a professional level, my experience no longer applies, and I don't think it's necessary to be a Jack of all trades. But at the no/lo budget, I have to spend time thinking about Sound Devices 402 Recorder or whatever the hell it was.

I'm sorry but I see this as a complete contradiction! On the one hand, you say that you don't "want to be an expert on anything at the moment" and then in the very next breath you're asking how to make specific expert decisions (mic placement). Then you've done exactly the same again, by stating that you don't need to be an expert on sound/audio and then stating that not only do you need a basic understanding of acoustics (the physics of how sound waves behave), which is a specialised field within the field of audio but that you need enough expertise to actually manipulate acoustics artificially in audio post?! I'm sure you're not deliberately trying to contradict yourself. I think you probably just don't realise you are making statements and asking questions which are "expert". For instance, the example you cited would not specifically be covered in the vast majority of audio production degree courses, so in a real sense you are talking about a level of expertise beyond degree level! There are very few professional/commercial directors who have more than a basic understanding of the audio issues you've raised and probably none at all who would actually know how to practically address them! This leads back to what I've said previously; gaining mastery of the art/skill of directing takes years, decades even. So why divert time/energy from gaining "directing" mastery by instead trying to gain a level of expertise in a field which at some point in your progression you are going to have to hand over to an actual expert in that field anyway?

I wasn't trying to contradict myself, no, but I can see how it looks. I was just applying what I remembered about Sound Waves from my O' Level (British 10th grade Exams) Physics. So I didn't think I was in expert territory. But what happened was that in the past I had placed the mic away from the action. I didn't know anything about audio post or what was possible in post. In my last shoot, I told the audio guy to record the dialog away from the action, and he advised me against it. So I had the discussion with him about how the further you are from the action there is a greater prevalence of lower frequencies, and he told me that I could manipulate the frequencies in post. I had no idea that it could be done. But we went ahead with his advice. So now I'm going to be handling that audio in the next couple of weeks in post.

So in my experience as a no/lo director, I do end up knowing a little bit about everything. Although I don't think that I'm an expert on anything. But I just try to have enough knowledge about various things so that I can make an intelligent decision, after talking to the experts. In this instance, I changed my decision after the discussion. I'll find out in a couple of weeks how smart that decision was.

BTW, if you actually want answers to the audio questions/example you posed, start another thread and I'll do my best to give you some useful pointers ... without going too far into PhD level acoustics/audio production! :)

I think I will do that. Thanks APE :)

I disagree:
1. No one person can concentrate on every aspect of the "shot" simultaneously. The director cannot therefore make a definitive decision on whether to do another take, Cut or Action! A good director will let their HODs monitor their departments and provide them with a feedback mechanism to participate in the decision, thereby leaving the director free to concentrate on the actors' performances and the overall aesthetic. Even then, it's still necessary to double check all the individual aspects and the overall aesthetic before moving on definitively, which is why dailes/rushes exist and are reviewed at the end of the shooting day.
2. As director you really don't need to know exactly what lens, aperture or mic placement is needed or why. What you do need is; a clear vision of the style, feel and meaning of the scene/shot you want to achieve and the ability to communicate that effectively to your HODs, as they are the only ones with enough expertise to present you with the most efficient/effective options of achieving your desired style/feel/meaning!

I completely understand why you feel this way. It's actually the correct way to feel in any professional environment. For instance if I told you "Can you make this scream sound like an echo in a cave?" and you said "Yes." I would have no reason to doubt you. This is your career. I saw the picture of your work environment. But at our no/lo budget, everybody (including myself) says they're this or that or the other thing. Not knowing anything about their field, and hiring them without asking a couple of questions to find out if they actually know what they're talking about, and not having enough knowledge about their field to decipher whether what they're saying is nonsense or not,... could be a killer for all your plans about your movie. Actually it most definitely will be.

At the professional level, this will not apply. Everybody has a track record. At our level, there is no track record, or the track records are not great. So I don't see how I can do my job at the low budget level without knowing something about everything. The work environments of the no/lo budget and the professional work environments and how much faith you can have on what the other person is saying in these two environments, is not the same. You can decide to have an expectation of professionalism at the no/lo budget, but my experience says that you do so at some peril. The idea of HODs at our level, if you haven't worked with the HODs in the past, and have no idea about their expertise or commitment levels, sounds like a disaster at the pay levels at which I operate. But I'm just talking from my own experience, and not the experience of the broader no/lo budget movies that are shot everyday of course. :)

I've disagreed with Trueindie above but that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong! If his goal is to make the best film/s he can with his current resources, then his approach is most likely the best for him. The reason I disagree with him is because if he wants to be a professional director and/or his available resources change significantly then his approach will lead to less efficient and therefore worse filmmaking than could have been the case

Yes, this is basically my approach. I have limited resources, and so I discard or apply filmmaking rules and techniques based on my particular situation. That's my approach in the simplest form. I learn what I think I have to know, and disregard things other people are telling me if I think it doesn't help my situation.
 
I have limited resources, and so I discard or apply filmmaking rules and techniques based on my particular situation. That's my approach in the simplest form. I learn what I think I have to know, and disregard things other people are telling me if I think it doesn't help my situation.

I believe I understand your position/situation, or at least understand it well enough to make some judgements about it. :) I'm not disputing at all that your approach is the best for you in your current situation. I'm not saying there's anything at all wrong with filmmaking being a hobby but I'm presuming, maybe incorrectly, that at some stage you wish to move beyond no budget amateur filmmaking? If not then your best route is most likely to just keep refining/developing your current approach. If you do want to move on, then at some stage you're going to have to completely change your approach. If this is the case, then much/most of the knowledge, skills and experience you've gained so far will have been wasted, you will lack much of what you will need and worst still, you may not even realise until it's too late what what skills/knowledge you need. In fact, it's possible that your experience to date will make it more difficult to transition to the new approach than a novice filmmaker who doesn't yet have an old approach to overcome. Let me explain using your example:

I completely understand why you feel this way. It's actually the correct way to feel in any professional environment. For instance if I told you "Can you make this scream sound like an echo in a cave?" and you said "Yes." I would have no reason to doubt you.

Ahh, the rabbit hole goes much deeper than that! My response below goes to the heart of the original poster's question (and my response to it), as although we're now talking about sound design, the basic principles/approach are just as applicable to cinematography or indeed to any other creative film craft.

No, I probably wouldn't say "Yes" in the first place! Assuming that the scream in question was not actually occurring in a scene set in a cave and you just wanted that cave echo effect to signify a flashback, premonition or some other "inside the character's head" POV scenario, my response would be along the lines of; "what are you trying to achieve, what is the background to character's emotional state and motivation, how do you want the audience to respond/feel?". The answers to all my questions would not exist in the script (or would be ambiguous) because I obviously wouldn't need to ask questions which my reading of the script had already answered. Based on your answers, my understanding of the story/script, the footage/edit and whatever else might be going on (music for example), I would present you with a couple of options which are more inventive and effective than the old cliche'd big chamber/cave echo effect. All this raises a few points:

1. By telling me what effect you want (a cave echo), you are not employing me to design the sound, you are effectively employing me to just to come up with a good implementation of a sound design you have already designed (decided upon). You would be wasting my creativity/experience/skills and the money you are spending to hire them! I would expect any student/rookie to be able to just dial in a cave echo effect in 30 secs or so, to do it particularly well would need a good Re-recording Mixer but in your example you are in effect the sound designer. Again, at the no budget/amateur level you acting as sound designer (as well as director, etc.) maybe the best solution but at the budgeted/commercial level, where you need a professional sound designer, I can't think of anything less efficient than hiring a pro sound designer and then the design of the sound actually being done by a part-time amateur (you, the director)!

2. As the director, you need to have a far deeper knowledge, understanding and vision of the story than just what's in the script, otherwise you won't be able to provide answers (or will provide poorly considered answers) to my questions. Most amateur filmmakers are forced by their circumstances into considering what will work but at the commercial/professional level you have to think in terms of what will work best! What will work best for say sound design is not a director who creates a vision for the sound design themselves but a director with a story vision which provides sound design opportunities and facilitates the sound designer in doing the best job possible.

3. In TV dramas and micro budget films sound design tends to be a reactive art. By this I mean that during post production the Sound Editor is presented with a script, a final picture edit and the production sound and then designs and edits sound in reaction to these effectively unalterable materials. Provided the director and video editor have a decent understanding of how to use sound as part of their story telling, reasonably good results can be achieved. The top directors all use a Sound Designer rather than just a sound editor/s, a Sound Designer is collaborative role rather than a reactive one! With nothing but an editable script, the director and other HODs, the Sound Designer is able to collaborate and help the director develop a vision during development/pre-production with a more precise and detailed plan of the use of sound (together with the other crafts) to tell the story. The options presented by the Sound Designer may include a range of areas not possible when sound design is purely reactive, such as changes or additions to: the script, the story itself and any component of scenes, shots or locations which impact sound design or which sound design could impact. This approach is more effective than the director just providing sound design "opportunities", although both approaches require skill and vision on the part of the director.

The point I'm trying to make with all of this is that as far as your future is concerned you are thinking about the issues you will face in terms of the issues you currently face. Your problem at the moment is getting someone who can create the sonic effects you're after, or learning to do it yourself. You look at the professional/budgeted filmmaking world and imagine that this issue will disappear .. and you're right, in a sense it will, as I'd expect an intern/apprentice to be able to easily accomplish what you're after. However, in reality it won't, because "what you're after" will have to change, how you arrive at "what you're after" and then how it's implemented will all have to change and these changes require a whole lot deeper and more specific "directing" knowledge/skills/talents than your current situation allows you to develop or even potentially allows you to realise exists! Likewise, the advice you are giving is all based on your current issues, which may well be the exact same issues as many other no budget filmmakers have to face and may therefore be very good advice for a novice no budget filmmaker but, does the OP ultimately want to be a no budget filmmaker? If not, then IMHO, your advice is maybe not so good.

G
 
(Which by the way Cinematographer is a loose term that I hate. Mostly it's thought that person is the Camera Op, but on industry standards they are just the DP.)
My intent is not to change your mind.

You believe the industry standard is DP but the Academy of Motion
Picture Arts and Sciences award to the DP is called the “Academy
Award for Best Cinematography”. The professional membership
organization that honors the cinematographers is called "The
American Society of Cinematographers." The guild that represents
the camera (and VFX) department in the US and Canada is called
"The International Cinematographers Guild"

You hate the term but I think an argument could be made that the
industry standard is cinematographer.
 
To APE:

Thanks for the elaboration. Much appreciated. It's definitely a different perspective on some things at least, that I hadn't considered before, and I'll keep it in mind, in case I ever get lucky enough to get out of the "hobby" zone :)
 
Thanks for the elaboration. Much appreciated. It's definitely a different perspective on some things at least, that I hadn't considered before, and I'll keep it in mind, in case I ever get lucky enough to get out of the "hobby" zone :)

Glad it was helpful. I just want to make it clear that although it's entirely possible and not uncommon for a professional to use the words "hobby", "hobbyist" and "amateur" derogatively, that's not how I'm intending it! The dedicated, experienced hobbyists/amateurs are often very skilled/talented at what they do. Put a top professional director in the shoes of these "hobbyist filmmakers" (no budget and no professional/commercial contacts, equipment or resources) and they would struggle to compete, many of them just simply wouldn't know how to make a film under these circumstances!

G
 
Glad it was helpful. I just want to make it clear that although it's entirely possible and not uncommon for a professional to use the words "hobby", "hobbyist" and "amateur" derogatively, that's not how I'm intending it! The dedicated, experienced hobbyists/amateurs are often very skilled/talented at what they do. Put a top professional director in the shoes of these "hobbyist filmmakers" (no budget and no professional/commercial contacts, equipment or resources) and they would struggle to compete, many of them just simply wouldn't know how to make a film under these circumstances!

G

Absolutely!! I don't take anything you say personally, and I absolutely don't believe you intended to be derogatory in any way. I love arguing with you, because I love a good argument, and you definitely back your claims up. So arguing with you is always fun :D

I definitely see where you're coming from and hadn't really considered that perspective, so in a way, I'm glad that I'm thinking about it now. But at a broader level, I don't completely agree with the idea, that I can't change my behavior if my circumstances change, or even that my behavior with HODs has to mimic traditional behavior of other directors. I can have my own kind of relationship with the Sound Designer.

But I'll pick up the argument with you another time for sure. I'm trying to complete my video portion of my edit in the next few days. Fingers crossed.

Cheers APE :)
Aveek
 
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