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The problem with over analyzing movies

pedramyz

pedramyz

I've always been a big fan of John truby's teachings but recently I went to his web site and gave a read to some of his movie breakdowns. The stuff I read shocked me! He stomps on movies that are overaly considered masterpieces like "Departed", " Beautiful mind" , "Prestige" ... and he stomps on many of my personal favorites too, like "Scott pilgrim vs the world" , " Dazed and confused" , "Everybody wants some",... .

The fact that he stomped on my favorites didn't bother me. what bothered me was that he clearly didn't understand these movies story-wise! and that's weird, cause you see in many cases he is on point about why a certain movie or tv show has been so successful. If anyone has the time to read his analysis of movies, check his website and you will see what I mean. I think the problem comes from the fact that this guy has focused all his man power into deconstructing a story that he's psyched himself out , therefore he misses so many obvious great stuffs and potentials of a movie. I get that americans want a great story more than anything (at least from Truby's point of view), but in all fairness that's not what movies are all about. If all people wanted was a great story they wouldn't have bothered with movies, they'd just read novels.

That's why I've always had a problem trusting teachers like him wholeheartedly. You can follow all their organized neatly crafted techniques and you can still end up having a crap script. Cause let's be honest, if people like him have realized everything there is about a good story, why aren't they themselves coming up with blockbuster movies? The answer is obvious, Creativity and criticism are two completely different things. They aren't even in the same ball park. and creativity is obviously harder than criticism. A creative person is usually a good judge of a good movie, but a good judge of a movie isn't necessarily a creative one.

Bottom line I think the best leads an aspiring creator in any field can have are first his own personal experiences and conceptions, and second the successful creative ones in that particular field, and not the critics or teachers ( unless that teacher had a great artistic track record himself).

I'd like to hear what others think about this.
 
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You can't criticize an old movie using the detailed knowledge, about how emotions are created, that we have today. Marlon Brando said about James Dean: "he gave us our freedom". Can you accuse the actors, before James Dean, for not being as "free" as they are today? No, because they didn't know, no one showed them the way. Can you accuse old directors for not having extreme close ups? No, they didn't know that an extreme close up is good when it is needed, or maybe the cameras back then wasn't proper, I don't know.

Or could you accuse Galileo for being idiot, because he knew that if you throw a rock from a mountain, with extreme force, it will start doing circles around the earth, but he couldn't suspect the force of gravity? Or can you accuse Newton that was completely unable to think why while you fall down, gravity stops, and therefore conclude that gravity is not really a force? No, they couldn't know at their time.
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There you go. So you agree that these previous knowledges were flawed right? Galileo didn't get everything right, neither did newton... but that doesn't make them lesser human beings, they were actually geniuses who realized things that ordinary people didn't. Now the fact that they were geniuses, makes everything they said flawless?! No. That's all I'm saying. you nailed my point of view by this example. Now, is it so hard to apply the same principle to movies?

You can't criticize old movies using later knowledge. You actually can't criticize nothing, using later knowledge. A black and white masterpiece is, by analogy, equal to a modern masterpiece. Einstein is, by analogy, equal to Aristotle and a 2118 movie masterpiece will be by analogy equal to Requiem For a Dream.
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you are contradicting yourself again by saying this. refer to your previous examples. Newton is not a lesser scientist than Einstein, the fact that Einstein refuted some of Newtons's principles by his relativity theory, doesn't make Einstein a superior scientist.Without newton maybe there wouldn't be any Einstein. both of them are geniuses and there is no comparison. but by studying Einstein's relativity (Later Knowledge) we learn that many physical rules that newton came up with ( earlier Knowledge ) were wrong.
 
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pedramyz said:
"I'm saying because a certain movie changed things in an era and was considered a masterpiece, that doesn't implicate that this movie is still a masterpiece by current standards."
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You said the above phrase. It is like saying because Newton was once genius, that doesn't mean that he is still genius.

pedramyz said:
"If the actings were really bad in a classic one or a new one it just catches my eye. Regardless of the era of the movie, a mistake ( even a small one ) is a mistake."
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No this is what I'm telling you. It is not a mistake regardless of the era of the movie. If today you don't zoom in when someone does the major revealing in the movie it is a mistake, back then it wasn't a mistake for them. You can't say "oh, here Hitchcock made a mistake, why people consider him big director?"

You change your view and your point in every post you do just to justify... your opinion? I don't really understand what is after all your opinion... I think just to show that you are right. I never contradict my self, you just keep shifting your view. First you attached importance to the fact that old masterpieces are not still masterpieces because they have mistakes, then you attached importance only to the fact that old movies have mistakes and forgot that you said that because of that they are not still masterpieces... and you did some more point shiftings like that.

Clear your thoughts and we could talk again. :yes:
 
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You said the above phrase. It is like saying because Newton was once genius, that doesn't mean that he is still genius.
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You are changing my words. please read the last post I wrote and give me your opinion. I'm not doing an ego contest with you I promise you. The answer to this sentence is mentioned in my 2 last posts.


No this is what I'm telling you. It is not a mistake regardless of the era of the movie. If today you don't zoom in when someone does the major revealing in the movie it is a mistake, back then it wasn't a mistake for them. You can't say "oh, here Hitchcock made a mistake, why people consider him big director?
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"

Again the answer to this one has been explained in the past 2 posts. You just keep repeating yourself without trying to understand what I'm saying. No it's not the director's fault for that mistake. That mistake wasn't discovered back in those days. But now that we have learnt that there is such a mistake, there can be no turning a blind eye to it. we can't ignore it anymore. Hitchcock was a genius, he didn't have any mistakes in his time okay? but NOW, certain mistakes are revealed and discovered, and only NOW we can see those mistakes in his movies. This doesn't devalue Hitchcock's works considering the TIME, but it hurts the PERFECT status of his movies. It was perfect back then, It isn't perfect anymore. By perfect here I mean flawless. These are of course from an objective point of view. But if you say in my opinion Hitchcock's movies are masterpieces and I connect with them in a way that I can't connect with any other movie ever, I won't have anything to say to that, you are absolutely entitled to have your personal taste and expectations from a movie, and who am I to argue with that?

You change your view and your point in every post you do just to justify... your opinion? I don't really understand what is after all your opinion... I think just to show that you are right. I never contradict my self, you just keep shifting your view. First you attached importance to the fact that old masterpieces are not still masterpieces because they have mistakes, then you attached importance only to the fact that old movies have mistakes and forgot that you said that because of that they are not still masterpieces... and you did some more point shiftings like that.
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It is obvious where I'm going with all this had you made an effort to understand my point of view in previous posts. to sum it up, it goes like this : From an objective point of view, no movie can remain a masterpiece forever. From a personal point of view ( personal preferences and tastes) a movie can remain a masterpiece forever.
 
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pedramyz said:
It is obvious where I'm going with all this had you made an effort to understand my point of view in previous posts. to sum it up, it goes like this : From an objective point of view, no movie can remain a masterpiece forever. From a personal point of view ( personal preferences and tastes) a movie can remain a masterpiece forever.
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Ok so what? Why you say that? What is your deeper point?
I can say that my opinion is the opposite of yours. I believe that from an objective point of view, a movie can remain a masterpiece forever. Everything else is personal opinion.
So?
 
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Ok so what? Why you say that? What is your deeper point?
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There is no deeper point. That's it.
I can say that my opinion is the opposite of yours. I believe that from an objective point of view,
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there is nothing wrong with personal opinions as long as they don't contradict common sense. You can't say objectively a movie can remain a masterpiece forever, that just isn't realistic. It's like saying you say 2+2 =4 but my personal opinion differs from you, so I say 2+2=5! you can say personally a movie can remain a masterpiece forever, and there is nothing wrong with that.
 
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I say:
I can say that my opinion is the opposite of yours. I believe that from an objective point of view, a movie can remain a masterpiece forever. Everything else is personal opinion.

And then you say:
Nothing wrong with that, your personal opinion differs from mine.It's ok. But that's it. You can't say objectively a movie can remain a masterpiece forever, that just isn't realistic. It's like saying you say 2+2 =4 but my personal opinion differs from you, so I say 2+2=5! you can say personally a movie can remain a masterpiece forever, and there is nothing wrong with that.

https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/800/1*ghsS6XcszTfl9UTYGdYsSg.jpeg
 
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Panos said:
I say:
I can say that my opinion is the opposite of yours. I believe that from an objective point of view, a movie can remain a masterpiece forever. Everything else is personal opinion.

And then you say:
Nothing wrong with that, your personal opinion differs from mine.It's ok. But that's it. You can't say objectively a movie can remain a masterpiece forever, that just isn't realistic. It's like saying you say 2+2 =4 but my personal opinion differs from you, so I say 2+2=5! you can say personally a movie can remain a masterpiece forever, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Yes, You Just mentioned some directing flaws in classic movies, How can a movie with flaws remain OBJECTIVELY perfect forever? They can PERSONALLY remain as your perfect movie but they can't remain perfect objectively. It's like saying there isn't and won't be a better person in the world than gandi! Or saying that philps is and will be the best swimmer in the world! Or saying there won't ever be a faster car than bugatti! There will always be someone or something better. History has taught us that. It's just common sense. Having personal opinion is fine as long as it doesn't refute common sense. That's why I made the mathematical example.
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In the same sentence you say: "Nothing wrong with that, your personal opinion differs from mine." and then you continue:"You can't say objectively a movie can remain a masterpiece forever..." which is exactly what I said and you agreed, at least at the first part of the sentence!!

Also who said anything about perfect movies?? A masterpiece is not a perfect movie!! And who said that Gandhi was a good person? And who is philps? :P

You are very passionate to having right always and you do sophistry. You confuse your thoughts and you do opinion shifting even in the same sentence.

I'm done with that topic, we just disagree.

By the way the movie "2+2=5" is a masterpiece.
 
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In the same sentence you say: "Nothing wrong with that, your personal opinion differs from mine." and then you continue:"You can't say objectively a movie can remain a masterpiece forever..." which is exactly what I said and you agreed, at least at the first part of the sentence!!
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I meant nothing is wrong with having personal opinions. That's my bad sorry. I should have more detailedly explained that. Yes now that I read the sentence it is contradictory,:yes: my english is not perfect you know?:) Here, I will rephrase that post.

Also who said anything about perfect movies?? A masterpiece is not a perfect movie!! And who said that Gandhi was a good person? And who is philps?


You are very passionate to having right always and you do sophistry. You confuse your thoughts and you do opinion shifting even in the same sentence.
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You are arguing with me that gandi wasn't a good person, and you are accusing me of sophistry?! Fine you don't think gandi is a good person. Bugatti is currently the fastest car ( to my knowledge) do you believe there won't ever be a faster car? When you are saying objectively no movie can be better than this one, it means technically ( without the influence of emotions) no other movie can be better than this one. and that's wrong, because technically there are movies and will be movies out there which have done a better directing ( for example) than this movie. as you mentioned the close up example, those movies didn't have a close up in important revealings, so that's a flaw. any movie which has done that ( close ups) have done a better job at least in the close up department. Or for example you say that a movie had a bad sound quality, so other movies that have a good sound quality are better than this movie in sound department. This is an example of OBJECTIVE ( technical) point of view. A personal point of view is based on your taste and there is nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't refute common sense. For example say a movie (movie number1) has a really bad sound quality, and there is another movie ( movie number 2) with a good sound quality, you can say although the first movie had a shitty sound quality I liked it better. You can even say I like bad sound quality for whatever reason. Tha's ok cause it's your personal opinion. But you can't say movie number 1 has better sound quality than movie number 2!That is not a fact. That is not a common sense. That's why you can't say it is my personal opinion that movie number 1 has better sound quality. That's why you can't say it's my personal opinion that objectively this movie will be the best movie ever. I can't explain it any clearer than this. I hope you got it.
 
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It's rather funny how you keep assuming that "masterpiece" means "better". Or that I said that Citizen Kane will keep being the best movie in the future, which I never said.

You are doing strong sophistry, but you know... I'm Greek.. "I" invented sophistry. So, lets have some more fun here.

Today doctors know an ocean more things about medicine than what Hippocrates knew. But Hippocrates will always be the best because there were literally no medicine back then. He was a wrestler and he literally by accident invented tricks to heal his wounds with specific plants. Today people go to university to learn medicine and become doctors! So Hippocrates will always be better.
:metal::abduct:
 
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