watch Star Trek - Horizon

I just saw your Video Blog 3. You really have amazing skills with virtual sets.

Tommy, for your sake please please understand what these folks are saying about legal IP rights issues. They are 100% right and honestly they only have the best of intentions in pointing it out to you. I started out my indie film path by reading a book about guerilla film making and it seemed so easy, so rebellious. Then reality hit when I figured I could never truly be secure and safe in showing such a production. I don't want all your work to go poof with a single letter.

I think Star Trek helps fuel your passion but with your skills I truly think you are focusing on the wrong thing. Why go to such lengths to imitate the phasers, uniforms, and sets of one Star Trek timeline when you could just create your own universe. Just because there are fans of ST doesn't mean you can't create your own. In fact, almost every sci-fi series from Babylon, Andromeda, Firefly seems to create their own fanbase.

I'm working on a Sci-Fi feature with a simple premise (survival in an escape pod) but already it's absolutely amazing what kind of universe I can come up with as a background to the story. It came pretty easy to me and I'm sure you can do the same.

Heck, we should talk more. I'd love your help in fleshing out the visuals in my film.

DIY said:

I just saw your Video Blog 3. You really have amazing skills with virtual sets.

Tommy, for your sake please please understand what these folks are saying about legal IP rights issues. They are 100% right and honestly they only have the best of intentions in pointing it out to you. I started out my indie film path by reading a book about guerilla film making and it seemed so easy, so rebellious. Then reality hit when I figured I could never truly be secure and safe in showing such a production. I don't want all your work to go poof with a single letter.

I think Star Trek helps fuel your passion but with your skills I truly think you are focusing on the wrong thing. Why go to such lengths to imitate the phasers, uniforms, and sets of one Star Trek timeline when you could just create your own universe. Just because there are fans of ST doesn't mean you can't create your own. In fact, almost every sci-fi series from Babylon, Andromeda, Firefly seems to create their own fanbase.

I'm working on a Sci-Fi feature with a simple premise (survival in an escape pod) but already it's absolutely amazing what kind of universe I can come up with as a background to the story. It came pretty easy to me and I'm sure you can do the same.

Heck, we should talk more. I'd love your help in fleshing out the visuals in my film.

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Thanks! I actually do understand where people are coming from with this and I do agree that copyright COULD be an issue, but given past support of a lot of fan films, I've decided to take the risk and do the project anyway. I just find it annoying that people are so apparently angry about these things. Honestly, I'm not offended at all, it just seems so ridiculous to me to waste so much energy coming to an internet forum to write extensive angry posts about why someone shouldn't do a fan film.

For the record, not that anyone will believe me (nor do I care), I do have many completed scripts that are original and others in progress. I also have an entire outline for a sci-fi universe starting from present day up to 300 hundred years in the future. This is a story I've been working on for years and very much want to pursue.

It's fine if you think I'm focusing on the wrong thing, but unless I die tomorrow, it's not like this will be the last project I ever do. I don't really see the issue with spending a year or two making this film, especially if no one hits me with a C&D. It's a story I'm passionate about, I'm enjoying myself doing this project, I'm learning a TON, other people seem to have a strong interest in it, and my parents are letting me live at home for free while I do this. It's really the best time for me to do this film. I realize fan films are not for everyone, and that's okay. But at the end of the day, I think some people seem to be expending a lot of energy trying to get me to quit this film, which I just don't understand.

tommygdawg said:

Wow, it's like top notch indie filmmaking snobbery at its best in here.

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I have been very positive about your work but I'll pull you up on this comment ^...

Remember you asked for feedback, and received it. And you do have a huge legal issue which people have mentioned. I think it's pretty unfair and ungrateful to use the 'indie filmmaking snobbery' term given that you asked for feedback and people are spending their time and energy providing it. Be grateful for that - they could be doing their own work and projects but spent time to help you. Whether you like the feedback or not is not the point...
.

IndiePaul said:

I have been very positive about your work but I'll pull you up on this comment ^...

Remember you asked for feedback, and received it. And you do have a huge legal issue which people have mentioned. I think it's pretty unfair and ungrateful to use the 'indie filmmaking snobbery' term given that you asked for feedback and people are spending their time and energy providing it. Be grateful for that - they could be doing their own work and projects but spent time to help you. Whether you like the feedback or not is not the point...
.

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I have no use and certainly no gratitude for feedback that is stated in an unfriendly and antagonistic tone. Feel free to rip my work to shreds, but if you can't be polite about it then I'm not really interested. I do like to get opinions on my work, but at the end of the day people on internet forums are internet nobodies; there's absolutely no reason I should pay special attention to anyone who's just going to attack me.

tommygdawg said:

but at the end of the day people on internet forums are internet nobodies;

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Speaking of "internet nobodies", there's this:

Paramount's Copyright Agent may be reached at:
copyrightagent@paramount.com

Paramount Pictures
5555 Melrose Avenue, Suite 121, Attention: Copyright Agent
Hollywood, CA 90038

tommyg's YouTube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6lvauYhw70

tommyg's website: http://www.tommykraft.com/

-------

Doing a little bit of research with the above links, ANYONE on the internet, especially those of the "nobody" kind, can dig up enough personal details and turn you in with this project or any future project of you do.

Now, I'm not in the business of tattletaling and I am pretty sure most people here aren't either. But we sure aren't "internet nobodies."

The time to mouth off is when you're holding that Oscar, not before.

This thread has become ridiculous, and there's no need for that.

I remember tommydawg from when he first joined this forum. I recall that he thought I didn't like any of his videos. It's true that I did give honest (if sometimes harsh) feedback, though I can honestly say that the reason I gave feedback in the first place is because I thought this was somebody who was putting enough effort forth that he deserved our attention, and I tried my best to make my critiques constructive.

Flash forward a few years and he has surpassed every one of his peers here (zero-budget filmmakers). We should be asking him for his advice!

APE, you have a knack for butting yourself into conversations in which you really don't belong. I don't think there are many people who would agree with you that what tommydawg has done is even slightly immoral. That's just a stupid thing for you to say. What he's done has been to craft a loving ode to a series that he finds dear to his heart. Do you find it immoral when musicians cover songs from artists that they admire? All those millions of youtube videos of people singing their favorite song -- that's immoral? Every time an elementary school puts on a production of Midsummer Night's Dream -- IMMORAL!

GA -- C'mon! Really. C'mon. That's about all I got for ya, cuz you're being kinda silly.

I believe since day one here I've been firm on the unauthorized use of other people's intellectual property. It's thief, period, talent or no talent. And the law supports my position. But I'm okay with agreeing to disagree. But by uttering "internet nobodies", one opens the door for the full wrath of the internet.

But you are right CF that this thread has run it's course, so if nobody has any more parting shots, we can let it die.

Yeah the internet nobodies line was basically insulting everyone here.. started to remind me of that tokenwhiteguy we had for a bit

"Forums are a place where people who CAN'T go to breed."

Cracker Funk said:

This thread has become ridiculous, and there's no need for that.

I remember tommydawg from when he first joined this forum. I recall that he thought I didn't like any of his videos. It's true that I did give honest (if sometimes harsh) feedback, though I can honestly say that the reason I gave feedback in the first place is because I thought this was somebody who was putting enough effort forth that he deserved our attention, and I tried my best to make my critiques constructive.

Flash forward a few years and he has surpassed every one of his peers here (zero-budget filmmakers). We should be asking him for his advice!

APE, you have a knack for butting yourself into conversations in which you really don't belong. I don't think there are many people who would agree with you that what tommydawg has done is even slightly immoral. That's just a stupid thing for you to say. What he's done has been to craft a loving ode to a series that he finds dear to his heart. Do you find it immoral when musicians cover songs from artists that they admire? All those millions of youtube videos of people singing their favorite song -- that's immoral? Every time an elementary school puts on a production of Midsummer Night's Dream -- IMMORAL!

GA -- C'mon! Really. C'mon. That's about all I got for ya, cuz you're being kinda silly.

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Thanks, Cracker. I appreciate that. As I recall (though I may be wrong), a lot of the advice I took issue with back then from other members was similarly unhelpful advice. I still remember a lot of it! One of the pieces of advice was "your writing is Tommy Wiseau-ish" and another was "it seems like you're behind a tree directing." I have a hard time being grateful for those pieces of advice because they're more harsh than helpful. How exactly do I go about becoming a better writer when my only feedback is "your writing is Tommy Wiseau-ish?"

The "internet nobodies" line was not meant to say that no one here has talent or ability or anything like that. The point was that if you're just going to come in here and trash me, I'm not going to take your feedback seriously because I have no idea who you are or what your level of expertise is. I don't have the energy for that.

If you can point something out in a friendly way, I'll be more than happy to listen and quite likely even agree to look into the issue.

You can certainly disregard any "advice" you may have gotten in the past from 8salacious9 (who has since been banned). His particular brand of "feedback" was neither helpful nor useful from everything I've ever seen. There are probably others whose criticism is overly harsh from time to time as well (myself included on occasion). However, I do think by and large the majority of feedback provided here is helpful. Or at least intended to help one improve.

That said, there is absolutely no reason to be pulling up and posting details about anyone, veiled threats of reporting them, etc. I mean really... REALLY?!

Cracker Funk said:

APE, you have a knack for butting yourself into conversations in which you really don't belong.

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I've been signing contracts pertaining to copyright law and dealing with copyright issues for 20 years but I'm not an entertainment lawyer so you're right, maybe I shouldn't have butted in. BTW, are you an entertainment lawyer? If not, why do you keep butting in when you seem to have even less understanding or appreciation of copyright law?

Cracker Funk said:

I don't think there are many people who would agree with you that what tommydawg has done is even slightly immoral. That's just a stupid thing for you to say.

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It's irrelevant whether many people would agree or not. What is relevant is whether the law makers, law enforcers and those who own commercially valuable copyrights would agree. For you to say otherwise would be poor advice and "a stupid thing to say"!

Cracker Funk said:

Do you find it immoral when musicians cover songs from artists that they admire?

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If we are talking about professional or aspiring professional musicians putting out a commercial or near commercial grade recording without clearance or royalty payments to the song's copyright holder, then it's clearly both immoral and illegal! It baffles me that you could question otherwise!!

Cracker Funk said:

Every time an elementary school puts on a production of Midsummer Night's Dream -- IMMORAL!

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This is neither illegal or immoral! As a filmmaker you really do need to have at least a basic understanding of copyright law!

tommygdawg said:

Thanks, Cracker. I appreciate that...
If you can point something out in a friendly way, I'll be more than happy to listen and quite likely even agree to look into the issue.

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You're thanking an "internet nobody" who is blowing smoke up your ass but ignoring the "internet nobodies" who actually have some appreciation of copyright law and are giving you valuable advice? Sorry ... if I very nicely and politely told you that what you're doing is technically breaking the law would that make a difference? What about if Paramount sends you a rather impolite C&D notice after a couple of years hard work, are you not going to "even agree to look into the issue" until they ask nicely? If polite criticism is all you can bare, maybe the film industry isn't the place for you, as it's well known for it's harsh criticism.

tommygdawg said:

I think some people seem to be expending a lot of energy trying to get me to quit this film, which I just don't understand.

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That seems to be the issue right there, that you "just don't understand" why people are expending energy to get you to do something original, the issue is your understanding!

I've been in the film/TV business for 20 odd years, I've seen a lot of people who easily had enough talent to make it in the industry but for one reason or another failed. Having talent will often get you an opportunity in the film business but you need more than just talent if you are to turn that opportunity into a long term career. It's a tough business and at the moment few areas of filmmaking are tougher than VFX. Doing a great job on the back of someone else's copyright might help your career or, it might just be a huge waste of time if it gets slapped with a C&D notice before anyone gets to see it or worse, it might actively hinder your chances of a career, if you're seen as cavalier or disrespectful of copyright issues/laws. On the other hand, if you instead work on something which is original, sure you don't have someone else's audience you can tap into but that just puts you on level playing field with every other aspiring indie filmmaker except with the added advantages of: 1. Having considerably more talent than the vast majority of aspiring indie filmmakers, 2. Not having to worry about a C&D notice, 3. Having something which is yours that you can be proud of, rather than always being aware that it's technically illegal and some/many will view you as little different to a thief, 4. Having something which may win you prizes at film festivals and/or which could be good enough to get distribution, return on investment or even a decent profit.

All of these advantages will do far more for your reputation and a potential career in the film industry than spending a couple of years on a wilfully copyright infringing project. On balance, giving up your fan film and working on an original idea, which you say you already have, appears to be a complete no-brainer. The fact that you haven't come to this conclusion yourself and "just don't understand" why some of us are so forcefully pointing it out to you indicates a level of naivety which will not aid you in making a career in the film industry. Potentially just wasting a couple of years might seem like an acceptable risk to you at this point in time but baring in mind how incredibly competitive the film industry is, the very last thing you want is anything which puts you at even a slight disadvantage!

G

I don't know why I bother. Okay, this is the last thing I'm saying on this point. APE, this movie is decidedly NOT professional, by definition. It's very high quality, yes, but he can't and won't make any money off of it.

In that sense, he's not really stealing anything. This is more of a cover song. A very laborious, time-consuming cover. That's all. No one is being harmed by it. If anything, the Trek franchise benefits greatly from fan fiction, helping to keep their fan-base excited.

Cracker Funk said:

I don't know why I bother. Okay, this is the last thing I'm saying on this point. APE, this movie is decidedly NOT professional, by definition. It's very high quality, yes, but he can't and won't make any money off of it.

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I don't know why you bother either, you obviously don't understand anything about copyright law, so I very much hope this is the last you're saying on this point too!!

You fail to realise that a movie does not have to be professional and the OP doesn't need to make money out of it (or even need to try and make money out of it) for the film to violate international copyright law! You seem to be confused by the idea that generally copyright holders do not sue in court if the copyright infringer has not made money out of their copyright infringement. However, copyright infringement is against the law, period, regardless of whether the copyright holder decides to sue them for damages! Is this clear?? The OP's trailer has broken the law, even if the OP is a student and this trailer was submitted as course-work, he has still broken the law! There is no question that he has broken the law, the only question is whether or not the copyright holder (Paramount) want to exercise their legal right to issue a C&D notice, actually sue the OP, just ignore the trailer's existence, or even, just ignore it for now (and reserve the right to sue at a later date).

Cracker Funk said:

In that sense, he's not really stealing anything.

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I don't know what sense you are talking about but I'm talking about the legal sense! As I've just stated, the OP has already wilfully infringed (stolen in effect) copyright and intends to do so again by making a feature. Just the name of his trailer is a copyright infringement, let alone the content!

Cracker Funk said:

No one is being harmed by it.

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You can't possibly know that for certain and even if you did, it is still NOT your or the OP's decision of who is or is not being harmed!! You don't even know the content of the OP's film yet, how do you know if part of his plot harms Paramount's character development, is abusive, racist, defamatory, will interfere with any of Paramount's own marketing or could cause Paramount's Intellectual Property harm in ANY other way (as judged/decided by Paramount, not you!)?

As the name suggests, at it's most basic that's exactly what copyright is: The right to copy intellectual property. The OP has copied intellectual property which does not belong to him and has broken the law, period. It is entirely up to the copyright holder to decide what they feel is harmful, not you, not the OP and not anyone else!

Cracker Funk said:

If anything, the Trek franchise benefits greatly from fan fiction, helping to keep their fan-base excited.

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Even if this is true (rather than just your opinion), it's entirely up to the copyright holders how, if and when they want to benefit the Star Trek franchise and/or excite their fan-base, NOT YOU!!! How many times do you need to be told Cracker?

If you made a film and then someone came along and copied all your characters, their names and the environment you had created, the name of the film and even stated it was based on your idea, would you not want any say in who could copy your intellectual property or how they could portray it? What if they turned it into a porn film, anti-islamic propaganda or anything else which you personally might consider objectionable or which you might consider harms your reputation, your film or it's sales, even though they might consider it harmless? Wouldn't you want the right to decide for yourself what constitutes "harmless" for your own IP? This question is hypothetical though, because whether you want that right to decide or not, it is already yours in law!

Cracker, your advice is ignorant of and ignores the law, it is therefore reckless and does not help the OP at all! Unless of course you consider encouraging a filmmaker to break the law is in some way actually helpful to them?

G

Tommy, what program did you use for CGI? Thanks!

Yeah, it's illegal. Duh. Nobody has questioned that. But illegal and immoral are not the same thing.

By your short-sighted judgment, this movie is immoral -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD8P80IgIyo

But I've seen it, and it's beautiful. Lucas and Spielberg have seen it, and they both loved it. What kind of world would we live in, if we weren't allowed to pay tribute to the works of art that we love?