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Old 09-29-2011, 11:37 AM   #31
Kholi
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I can't speak for Nate, but I think it's perfectly okay to ask questions. This is a public forum, after all.
Definitely.

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That is (mostly) correct. I want to be closely connected to a group of filmmakers who are willing to take risks, and really throw themselves into a common project. I'm not saying that everyone else on this forum isn't very committed to their projects, already. Take you, for example, Kholi -- obviously, you wouldn't be finishing up a feature, one that's quite ambitious, if you weren't super committed to it.

What I find unique about Nate's project is that one of the most important strategies of the project is that everyone who is joining is very interested in becoming part of a team. That's really the main motivating factor, for myself, and I imagine the same is true for most everybody.
I can imagine this being a pretty weighty factor for you and for many. Not having an actual team or a small, go-to community when it comes to producing content makes things a lot harder indeed. I'm not sure how different the community is where you'll be going, but if it's LA there are at least a few people you could get to come around and throw in to see a project through.

In addition to what you said about finishing up the feature (ambitious as it is), I wouldn't have done it had I not known there were five or six people who would walk right beside me to get it done, hell or high water.

On the flipside of that, my friend from Georgia--I had him come out last year to come and work on a big job and he's hooked, now flies out for a few months at a time to work with me in Camera Department--remarked that it's just a completely different vibe here. The creativity flows heavily if you're in the right group and everyone wants to do something.

We sit around my friends pool once to thrice a week just hashing ideas out and brainstorming. Back home in GA I never got that, and I probably still wouldn't if I were there.

Not to speak up for Brian, but I'm sure he's the same as I and wishes you the best in your endeavor, and hope you get to find what you're looking for, man.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:38 AM   #32
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Wheat, I think it's time for you to manufacture a midlife crisis!

/joking

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Old 09-29-2011, 11:39 AM   #33
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We sit around my friends pool once to thrice a week just hashing ideas out and brainstorming. Back home in GA I never got that, and I probably still wouldn't if I were there.
That sounds awesome. That's definitely something I don't have, where I am now.

Thanks for the well-wishes. Cheers.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:54 AM   #34
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Do you not pay rent?
Actually I'm a landlord myself. And I tell tenants what the deposits are, the cleaning fees, and what you get for what you pay. That stuff has to be crystal clear if you want to avoid problems. And yet the ad has this parsed language, every word seems to be teased and oh so carefully chosen.

The ad says "Move in cost is only $1,400" and THEN you pay $700 a month rent. The $1400 sounds like the buy in for the pay to play -- if it was a first and last month's rent presumably it'd say that. But instead we get this ambiguous language.

A lot of red flags here. That's why there so much skepticism.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:59 AM   #35
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Actually I'm a landlord myself. And I tell tenants what the deposits are, the cleaning fees, and what you get for what you pay. That stuff has to be crystal clear if you want to avoid problems. And yet the ad has this parsed language, every word seems to be teased and oh so carefully chosen.

The ad says "Move in cost is only $1,400" and THEN you pay $700 a month rent. The $1400 sounds like the buy in for the pay to play -- if it was a first and last month's rent presumably it'd say that. But instead we get this ambiguous language.

A lot of red flags here. That's why there so much skepticism.
Oh, ok. I see where you're coming from, then. If it's poorly-worded, perhaps that's because Nate is not the landlord, and he is not advertising a property for rent. $1,400 is for a deposit, and first-month's rent. That money doesn't go to Nate, but to the owner of the property. After the first month, then we continue to pay rent. There. All cleared up?
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:01 PM   #36
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Cracker, I'm glad you're here playing defense.
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Old 09-29-2011, 12:57 PM   #37
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It does nobody any good if you back off from asking questions. A lot of people who're single and can actually make the move are considering it. So the more questions, the better it will be for them to evaluate the opportunity.
Absolutely agreed, thanks trueindie. Ask away Rik. I really am open to questions.
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:07 PM   #38
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Okay I pay YOU to work on your film reel and then MAYBE I'll get a salary in a few months, and IF you get a truckload of money somehow I MIGHT get a job on the feature? Do I have it right?
A: You do your part to help create an organization that will create reels for all members, reels good enough for entry into pro work, of a caliber that none of us could produce solo. It's a synergy effect, where everyone benefits, not just me. Anyone joining this project is going to walk away with an epic reel produced in conjunction with a trained team. See if you can get that included in rent where you live.

If we do get investment, (I assume that's what you mean by a truckload of money), that will go towards training and equipping the entire team so we can dial in the final look of the feature to be produced in phase 2. It would be a real waste of money if I fired the whole team I just trained for 10 months, I'm curious why you think I'd shoot myself in the foot and turn on my friends at first opportunity. What is it that make your thoughts turn in that direction? Other people may be like that, but I'm not, and that will become obvious over time.
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:20 PM   #39
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It is interesting that the cost of living could be considered a pay to play offer but really I just think the confusion has been handled effectively here already.

Really, I see here that we are already in a very good position, there are limited spots open and not everyone wants to or can be involved for various reasons.
That being said, we aren't looking for approval or permission to do this project. Opinions are always valuable and I like that it is very open here and there is no need for defensive posture.
If I were to call this a one month workshop to train camera moves and green screening technique using a Red Epic for $3000 then I would probably fill the house with students and make a profit from the course. (Not something I am interested in, or going to do.) That would be Pay to Play.
That would be different. This is a team forming to compete in business, all of us that have had businesses in the past or made significant contributions cinematically know that there are costs to any project.One reason many fail to have their own business is they think with "Job" where you work for a contracted wage and that is the limit to the risk.
A business will take all of your time and creative energy up front and after (Statistically) years of effort begins income.
This is like that and those already here on the forum who have gleaned some success already know this. It is just a more ideal viewpoint for a team member or business person to maintain in this world of no guarantees.
Probably, nearly everyone here is in agreement about Pay to Play. People are making money from others trying to get somewhere. I for one never get involved in them and agree that they should be attacked and or ignored, and am glad that that is not what is going on here.

What I am confident in is that our team will improve with each passing month of work and that will be helpful for us as a team and individually to compete.
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:21 PM   #40
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Wheat, I think it's time for you to manufacture a midlife crisis!

/joking
I tried to believe me, but my wife is so awesome I could only sustain my mid life crisis for a day. I guess I need a lesson from Obmama on successfully sustaining a crisis footing.
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Old 09-29-2011, 01:23 PM   #41
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The problem I have is this? What evidence is there that if a group of 8 guys got together without any connections in the industry or advertising world, that work would come along? Even wedding work. We go along in this industry thinking this will happen and that will happen. I see very little evidence of anything happening without somebody knowing somebody. So therein lies my fear.

I admit that what Nick is saying is going through a lot of people's minds. I'm going through the phased financing plans for Deathworld. And to be completely honest, I feel like I don't have the expertise to be of any help in this kind of project. It is too big for someone like me. But I would most definitely like to be part of a production company of other like minded hungry people.

I gotta go. I got a few more questions that are also not answered, regarding ownership, etc. But I don't know if I should ask them in this public forum. But I feel that if such considerations are openly discussed, a lot more people would have less reservations.

I hope I did not step on any toes by making my thoughts public Nate, but I feel like I wanted to discuss them here. After all I ask for advice on many issues regarding whatever it is I'm thinking about regarding filmmaking, on this forum.

Best,
Aveek
Question 1: knowing people.

A: I know some people, and while no specific jobs are set in stone without us filming a single demo reel, I do have several connections for work, and more importantly will be working constantly on the group's behalf to secure as many good and hopefully recurring contracts as possible. Not every swing is a home run, but I keep at it, and sometimes we get good results. I currently have 2-3 good leads that could provide us with real work. I can hold my own in a conversation with an investor, and that's valuable as well. I know some people that can make things happen if they are impressed with the caliber of our work.

Question 2: what good can I be to something the scale of Deathworld?

You might be surprised. Or you might need training. Either way, there is a way.

Question 3: is it ok to ask questions or talk openly

Absolutely. Things aren't perfect, aren't sure here, I'm just making the strongest effort possible to create a win scenario, and I want to be honest about that. I'm not promising that people we haven't even met yet will buy our services. But I will try to get them to. And I won't stop the first time someone says no. It's about a sustained effort against a statistical problem.

I can't promise you'll like every response, but I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.

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Originally Posted by bird View Post
I can understand both sides of this enterprise, as well as the healthy skepticism. The one thing I think would be most pertinent is determining what this core group of filmmakers are entitled to IF and WHEN the whole production gets greenlighted. I would hate to think a bigger budget would push some of these guys out in favor of a better-known, industry professional. (That's not to say one of the core couldn't turn out to be a bust, nor that *they* couldn't compete with a pro) I guess what I'm suggesting is to have some sort of legal document which allows *you* to continue (to the financed version or phase~ whatever you want to call it) or some sort of contract buyout if this relationship doesn't flourish as expected. Then again, I guess these are the risks one would have to take?
It is a HUGE deal to me that we do not get pushed out of our own project. That's the entire reason behind phase 1. I've literally worked twice as hard as I'd otherwise have to so that we could create a structure where that wouldn't be the default result. Remember, I don't want to be replaced either, and that means not just selling them a movie, but selling them a team. (investors)

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Originally Posted by brianluce View Post
Actually I'm a landlord myself. And I tell tenants what the deposits are, the cleaning fees, and what you get for what you pay. That stuff has to be crystal clear if you want to avoid problems. And yet the ad has this parsed language, every word seems to be teased and oh so carefully chosen.

The ad says "Move in cost is only $1,400" and THEN you pay $700 a month rent. The $1400 sounds like the buy in for the pay to play -- if it was a first and last month's rent presumably it'd say that. But instead we get this ambiguous language.

A lot of red flags here. That's why there so much skepticism.
The damage deposit on this house is actually $11,000

I'm paying half of it for you, that 1400 is one months rent and half of the deposit. I'm doing everything I can, but cash flow is not good 2 months before the first paid gig comes in. I'm paying about 5500 More than anyone else. Not to mention getting us some critical equipment to work with (70k), and making some important connections to make this feasable. Not to mention months of work creating a central project worth everyones time. Not to mention creating a structure that can make effecient use of our collective capabilities. That's a pretty good offering to come free with your room. Nobody pops up and tries to help me in this way, I wish they would. So I'm trying to offer others what I would want.

I tried to pay for everything outright, but I ran out of money. As soon as I can get serious investors, I will take over half the rent as well. I will make the strongest possible attempt to provide a living wage, and all efforts will be in that direction.

It's a cart and horse issue from the beginning. If I have 20 grand, I get an opportunity to try to raise the 20 grand I need to back a loan for 20 grand to get the work to back the loan. Arrrrggghhh!

So rather than solve this "rich get richer, poor get poorer" rubick's cube. I'm asking 7 of you to help me smash it. It's a brute force hack for those of us that don't have the means to secure a startup loan.

Last edited by chilipie; 09-29-2011 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Please use multi-quote rather than triple-posting.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:28 PM   #42
Kholi
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This thread is a GOOD thing. Ask more questions, particularly DirectoRick.
Nate your coming off a bit defensive, and thats understandable but its still feels negative.


From talking with Nate he is perfectly willing to answer the hard questions.

Here are a few hard questions:

What makes you, Nate, think you can pull this off?

...
That's probably a bigger question than anything, but not just about Nate.

I think I asked before about a reel or something but never saw any of the work from this group. Does anything exist on the web?

I know Nate did a timelapse documentary, other than that I've seen Machinima with mo-graph layed over it.

I haven't seen any shorts, live action commercials, etc. As someone interested in what's going on, that would be my major deciding factor. Me, personally, I'll follow good work around no problem.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:47 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Kholi View Post
That's probably a bigger question than anything, but not just about Nate.

I think I asked before about a reel or something but never saw any of the work from this group. Does anything exist on the web?

I know Nate did a timelapse documentary, other than that I've seen Machinima with mo-graph layed over it.

I haven't seen any shorts, live action commercials, etc. As someone interested in what's going on, that would be my major deciding factor. Me, personally, I'll follow good work around no problem.
I've been without a camera for some time, and had to wait almost 7 months for the epic. I've had use of it for 1 day now. Red did not deliver the power supply until last wed, and I don't take out a 70k camera alone for safety reasons. You will get your reels, believe me, you will get your reels. I make film compulsively, I love it, I can't stop. As soon as the crew is here, you will start to see a constant outpouring of good material. I just need a little more time and this aspect will be resolved.

I've tried hard to produce good work with no help and amidst financial adversity, but have always found a lack of help and resources so limiting as to keep me from putting what I wanted on screen.

I might note that I've posted several good commercials, original AE and 3ds max work, original vue work, and a variety of hdr and experimental work. The CGI for the original move in pitch is also original, as is the concept artwork in much of the PDF. I have released the first epic light test, and while I don't think I'll qualify for sundance with it, it does show a baseline for production that meets marketable standards.

I don't mean to sound defensive, but I've produced some good work within my current means, and worked hard to extend those means. Give me just a little more time, and I'll impress you with something real. I can do a great deal more than I've been able to show pre camera. Could I have made something with a cheap camera? Yes, I could have, but remember, I'm a colorist, to me cheap camera footage looks horrible, and I wouldn't have enjoyed producing some grainy colorless short. My youtube days are over.
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Old 09-29-2011, 02:50 PM   #44
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I might note that I've posted several good commercials, original AE and 3ds max work, original vue work, and a variety of hdr and experimental work. The CGI for the original move in pitch is also original, as is the concept artwork in much of the PDF. I have released the first epic light test, and while I don't think I'll qualify for sundance with it, it does show a baseline for production that meets marketable standards.
.
Oh okay I missed that footage. and the commercials. Got a link?
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:15 PM   #45
Nate North
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Oh okay I missed that footage. and the commercials. Got a link?
Word

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ADbeH-pT4Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUNWWF8CyLY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0tBzIVlA74

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqdg1Jv0Yko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Xb1eqxO-Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qjgBMU3ibc

Video copilot project for the initial fly in, but all original after that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgdH_-XwcIw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvt5RYAhOAI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odeed-diCE8

And there are literally hundreds more, and of course 4 at the beginning of this thread.

But I might ad, that none of this is representative of what 8 guys can do with an Epic.
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