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Old 09-29-2011, 03:27 AM   #16
Cracker Funk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianluce View Post
If you're asking for $1400 front money and then become the landlord and in return you're asking skilled, creative people to work unpaid on your project with the idea of attracting investment. That's fundamentally a pay to play scheme.
Nate is not the landlord. He is a co-tenant. The $1,400 is what all co-tenants must pay. You really got this thing wrong, dude. I'm not paying Nate. I'm paying rent. And a deposit. That is how you move into a new house. And Nate is not the landlord of the place I will be living.

This is not "pay to play". It is pay to have a house to live in. Some people call that "paying rent".

And nobody will be working on any project, unpaid. If we aren't getting paid, then we will all be actively looking for ways to get paid. So that we can pay rent. This is a co-operative, in the truest sense. I'm sorry that you think it is some sort of scheme. I think it's pretty freaking genius.
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:39 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate North View Post
In the second question you are just asking the same thing again. I assume you really disliked that.
Not a good assumption. I neither liked or disliked that - I only have
the question. My question does not imply anything other than genuine
curiosity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate North View Post
Imagine if you were going through horrifying expenses to make something happen that you believe provides more benefit to others than it takes from them. You make a generous offer and get a sarcastic response.
I imagine getting sarcastic, cynical and skeptical responses when posting
on a public message board is to be expected. It's impossible to control
how others will respond. My suggestion is to temper how you respond.

What you are offering is unusual - you know that. Your restrictions are
strong - for a very good reason. You cannot expect everyone to respond
the same way or to be completely positive. Take the high road. If you feel
you are getting a sarcastic response to your generous offer, treat that
person with the utmost respect and help them understand without the
sarcasm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate North View Post
Maybe you read that the wrong way, but really, I didn't intend my post to sound argumentative, I was trying to say that it was ok to be cynical and question this, I really don't mind.
Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad your intent was different than the way
your post seemed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate North View Post
As far as the phone thing. I'm trying to be more accessible, not less. How in the world did you twist that around?
Again a poor assumption. I was not twisting anything. I was simply asking
a question to clear up something I found unclear. I'm sorry you read my
question about calling you that way.

I'm really curious about this. As I have been about other projects of yours.
You seem to think my questions and curiosity are some kind of challenge to
your integrity or to you personally. I am genuinely sorry you get that from me
often. I am by nature a very curious person.

I apologize for twisting anything you have said. Even though I have several
more questions, I'll back off.
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracker Funk View Post
And nobody will be working on any project, unpaid. .
Okay well that's not what the ad said. If there's a guaranteed salary, the ad should say that.

Again, not trying to discourage you or anyone, for the right person, this might be an opportunity. Pay to play has its place perhaps when -- especially if you have a branded property. I just think the language in the ad is unnecessarily ambiguous at best.
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianluce View Post
Okay well that's not what the ad said. If there's a guaranteed salary, the ad should say that.

Again, not trying to discourage you or anyone, for the right person, this might be an opportunity. Pay to play has its place perhaps when -- especially if you have a branded property. I just think the language in the ad is unnecessarily ambiguous at best.
I don't know why you keep using this term, "pay to play". I think I've explained, quite clearly, that I'll be paying rent. Rent is not "pay to play". That's just living. In a house. That I pay rent for. Why is this difficult to understand?

And, no, the ad says nothing of guaranteed salary. You're connecting dots that aren't there. I never said there is guaranteed salary. I said that I won't work for anything that is unpaid. If there is no income coming in, from this project, then I will try my hands at this wild new thing, called, "getting a job".
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Old 09-29-2011, 04:53 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracker Funk View Post
I don't know why you keep using this term, "pay to play". I think I've explained, quite clearly, that I'll be paying rent. Rent is not "pay to play". That's just living. In a house. That I pay rent for. Why is this difficult to understand?
Because when $1400 goes from my hands to someone else's, it feels like paying. I guess I'm funny that way.

Last edited by brianluce; 09-29-2011 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:08 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by directorik View Post
Even though I have several
more questions, I'll back off.
It does nobody any good if you back off from asking questions. A lot of people who're single and can actually make the move are considering it. So the more questions, the better it will be for them to evaluate the opportunity.
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianluce View Post
Because when $1400 goes from my hands to someone else's, it feels like paying. I guess I'm funny that way.
Do you not pay rent?
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:42 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cracker Funk View Post
Do you not pay rent?
It may be totally self explanatory to those who know more about the project but I can see where Brian is coming from. Not saying there's anything wrong with it but it's unusual to charge your crew rent. I'm assuming that Nate is/will be director and producer, so I can see why it's a financial godsend to have your crew shelling out just to be there, but I can also understand Brian's raised eyebrow.

Out of curiosity- If the feature gets the go ahead, what crew positions will you all be taking? Same with the sizzle reel?
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Old 09-29-2011, 10:59 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by NickClapper View Post
It may be totally self explanatory to those who know more about the project but I can see where Brian is coming from. Not saying there's anything wrong with it but it's unusual to charge your crew rent. I'm assuming that Nate is/will be director and producer, so I can see why it's a financial godsend to have your crew shelling out just to be there, but I can also understand Brian's raised eyebrow.

Out of curiosity- If the feature gets the go ahead, what crew positions will you all be taking? Same with the sizzle reel?
Yes, Nate is producer/director, but I don't see it as odd, for us to have to pay our own rent. If this were a Hollywood production, with a big budget, then yes, it would be normal for the producer to pay for housing, if it is shot on location.

But this isn't a big Hollywood production. It's a big project, but without a big budget, so Nate is saying that he can afford to pay us a salary, whenever the team has a paid gig (and we won't be taking any unpaid gigs), but that he cannot afford to pay for our housing, so we're on our own for that. When you consider how many people work on production after production, on a completely volunteer basis, I don't think it's crazy for me to have to pay for my own housing.

As for your question about what happens if the feature gets full funding, I'm personally not immediately concerned about that. I'm only committing to stay with the team for phase 1, so I only expect the team to stay committed to me, for phase 1. What happens after that? Who knows. I guess that would depend a lot on the relationships we forge, during phase 1. That works for me.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:03 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueindie View Post
It does nobody any good if you back off from asking questions. A lot of people who're single and can actually make the move are considering it. So the more questions, the better it will be for them to evaluate the opportunity.
Agreed. Valid questions are being raised by those of us that were interested in what's going on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickClapper View Post
It may be totally self explanatory to those who know more about the project but I can see where Brian is coming from. Not saying there's anything wrong with it but it's unusual to charge your crew rent. I'm assuming that Nate is/will be director and producer, so I can see why it's a financial godsend to have your crew shelling out just to be there, but I can also understand Brian's raised eyebrow.

Out of curiosity- If the feature gets the go ahead, what crew positions will you all be taking? Same with the sizzle reel?
Also had the same questions. And agree with where Brian and Nick's coming from. Although, I suppose the "ad" is just worded in a strange way. At this point, what CF is saying is that he's just moving to CA to live with Nate and his friends and is going to find a job either way.

It *sounds* like it matters less to him if there's guaranteed work because it's just a move he wants to make.

I'm throwing in that agreeing with Brian doesn't mean I'm trying to discourage anyone, but I get the same exact vibe that Brian described a post or three back. It may be the way the posts have been worded that raised red flags for me.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:03 AM   #26
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I talked to Nate yesterday about this. Seems like a perfectly nice guy (Of course, that in and of itself does not mean anything)

But Nick was stressing more an idea for a group of people to be together and to have the expertise to be able to handle big jobs and compete with large agencies for jobs. We didn't really talk much about Deathworld.

To me this idea is more feasible, than even Deathworld. I'm trying constantly to form a team, and it never happens. Everybody has to go and get a job and pay rent. But if you can get 8 guys, all of whom are filmmakers, and not all of them directors, into one spot, you've got a pretty good production company. If you can collectively self finance for three months, on rent and food, with people who're at least partially solvent, you've got a production company like any other, Deathworld or not.

The problem I have is this? What evidence is there that if a group of 8 guys got together without any connections in the industry or advertising world, that work would come along? Even wedding work. We go along in this industry thinking this will happen and that will happen. I see very little evidence of anything happening without somebody knowing somebody. So therein lies my fear.

I admit that what Nick is saying is going through a lot of people's minds. I'm going through the phased financing plans for Deathworld. And to be completely honest, I feel like I don't have the expertise to be of any help in this kind of project. It is too big for someone like me. But I would most definitely like to be part of a production company of other like minded hungry people.

I gotta go. I got a few more questions that are also not answered, regarding ownership, etc. But I don't know if I should ask them in this public forum. But I feel that if such considerations are openly discussed, a lot more people would have less reservations.

I hope I did not step on any toes by making my thoughts public Nate, but I feel like I wanted to discuss them here. After all I ask for advice on many issues regarding whatever it is I'm thinking about regarding filmmaking, on this forum.

Best,
Aveek
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:15 AM   #27
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I can understand both sides of this enterprise, as well as the healthy skepticism. The one thing I think would be most pertinent is determining what this core group of filmmakers are entitled to IF and WHEN the whole production gets greenlighted. I would hate to think a bigger budget would push some of these guys out in favor of a better-known, industry professional. (That's not to say one of the core couldn't turn out to be a bust, nor that *they* couldn't compete with a pro) I guess what I'm suggesting is to have some sort of legal document which allows *you* to continue (to the financed version or phase~ whatever you want to call it) or some sort of contract buyout if this relationship doesn't flourish as expected. Then again, I guess these are the risks one would have to take?
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:23 AM   #28
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I can't speak for Nate, but I think it's perfectly okay to ask questions. This is a public forum, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholi View Post
At this point, what CF is saying is that he's just moving to CA to live with Nate and his friends and is going to find a job either way.

It *sounds* like it matters less to him if there's guaranteed work because it's just a move he wants to make.
That is (mostly) correct. I want to be closely connected to a group of filmmakers who are willing to take risks, and really throw themselves into a common project. I'm not saying that everyone else on this forum isn't very committed to their projects, already. Take you, for example, Kholi -- obviously, you wouldn't be finishing up a feature, one that's quite ambitious, if you weren't super committed to it.

What I find unique about Nate's project is that one of the most important strategies of the project is that everyone who is joining is very interested in becoming part of a team. That's really the main motivating factor, for myself, and I imagine the same is true for most everybody.

I'm perfectly happy, in Richmond, VA. I've got a good job, I've built a reputation for myself, locally, as a filmmaker, and I've got tons of very talented actors who want to work with me. I'm not making the move to CA just because I want to live in CA. I'm making the move because I want to be associated with this team of filmmakers.

Aveek, to answer your question about work coming along, we do have some connections, to the best of my knowledge. Nate has been conducting phone interviews, with the people he's not able to meet face-to-face, but it's worth noting that the interview is a two-way street. I've had some pretty extensive conversations with him, and I gotta say that I personally feel pretty confident about having him take the position of producer. There is a certain charm and ambition that just doesn't come across in a typed message, like we see on this forum. Already, he has gotten his hands on a Red, using nothing more than his gift of negotiations. And more recently, he got us an excellent deal on this house. If ever there was anybody I've talked to, whom I am willing to put my trust in to go get us some paid jobs, it's this guy.

Cheers!
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:34 AM   #29
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This thread is a GOOD thing. Ask more questions, particularly DirectoRick.
Nate your coming off a bit defensive, and thats understandable but its still feels negative.


From talking with Nate he is perfectly willing to answer the hard questions.

Here are a few hard questions:

What makes you, Nate, think you can pull this off?

Have you secured the option to the script?

Do you have some PROOF that Harry Harrison is your bud?

How will you pay the rent in February? March?


That said,

If I was in a different life situation, Id already be there. Risks and all, seriously.. .
$1400 move in gets you.
  • 1st and last months rent paid.
  • captured access to other film makers
  • hands on access to some pretty cool toys (RED camera, rigging gear etc)
  • access to round the clock LIVE IN technical support
  • High Bandwidth internet connection
  • All the electricity you can eat
  • Your own bathroom
  • All the water you can drink \swim in.
  • Beautiful surroundings

All of that is guaranteed, at least for two months, the OPPORTUNITIES, no guarantees, from this are:
  • You're part of the start up of a production company, you may be able to work in film related activities 100% of the time, instead of having a "day job"
  • You're working on a scifi technology proof\teaser that may put your work in front of some influential eyes.
  • Expanding your personal network with industry people.
  • Part ownership in a feature film, with solid demographics and proven market
...

Last edited by wheatgrinder; 09-29-2011 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 09-29-2011, 11:36 AM   #30
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Well-stated, wheat!
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