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Old 05-17-2017, 04:17 PM   #16
indietalk
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Now we are getting somewhere.

You belong in craft service.
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:27 PM   #17
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Shoot extra stuff you want, so you can work on an alternative edit.
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by directorik View Post
We each have our own method. I have never minded being a hired hand.
I take pride in delivering exactly what the band wants even if it isn't
exactly what I want. You don't want to be a hired hand. So my advice is
to tell them that.

Tell then you are up for collaborating but the final creative decision must
be yours. Tell them what you said here; that your goal is to make a music
video that you are proud of so you must have the final say as the director.
Tell them you are not interested in being just a hired hand or the camera
operator.

From what you write here, it does sound like they are willing to reduce your
control so be personally prepared to be let go. And then leave with
professionalism keeping the door open if in the future they are willing to hire
you under your specifications.

Good luck.

And welcome to indietalk. I hope you stick around and let us know what happens.
Good advice. I'm doing a performance video shoot with them next month, so if problems arise then, I will just say I don't want to be a hired hand and see where that goes.

I'm fine with being told what to do to a certain extent. For example, if I'm the editor of a project, I understand that director has final say (or in some cases, the exec/producer). Even with this last music video, they wanted teaser videos. I cut one together, and they were being very specific about certain things, like font size etc. I didn't mind so much then, but for a product as a whole... I guess, I don't know. I feel like if I'm dedicating my time, sometimes money, skill/expertise and contacts within the industry, I should have some say.

Anyway, we'll see what happens. They're keen for me to do their next 3 music videos. Even so far as going to South Africa to shoot.

Cheers for the advice. I'm shooting the narrative part next month, so will let you know.
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Old 05-17-2017, 04:35 PM   #19
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He gives the best advice.
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Old 06-29-2017, 05:21 AM   #20
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Well, we've done the shoots. Still have yet to edit.

It got a bit tense before the second shoot that we planned, which was more of narrative to fit within the bands performance video. I was doing a lot of logistical stuff, because the lead singer just didn't have the time, and because I'm making a hundred decisions, he didn't like that it wasn't going through him. I diplomatically said that we need to have more meetings to alleviate this, and he agreed.

We had a big talk about the whole "backseat directing", and I explained that I'm all up for collaborating but you can't lean over my shoulder for every tiny decision and that he needs to trust me more and have more of an open discussion about things.

When it came to actually directing on the day, I asked his opinion several times and he would usually reply with "Whatever you think is best". So either he realised he didn't know what he was doing, or he started to trust me more. The latter might have been because we had a fall out about an actor I wanted to hire, and he didn't like him so much, to then thinking he was really good when we got into rehearsal. And also the fight scene that I myself choreographed, which he seemed to be impressed by.

Other than the actual shoot conditions, it went pretty well. He also wants to continue working with me, so I'm going to put this down as a learning curve for both me and him.
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:08 AM   #21
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That's great!
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Old 06-29-2017, 08:29 AM   #22
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That's great! And it does sound like he learned to trust you more.
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Old 06-29-2017, 09:04 AM   #23
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Interesting thread, I love walking on eggshells.

Here is the problem, once they went from client to friends they felt like they could provide a little more control.
This is one of the reasons why I will not work for free even if it turns into a paid gig. A small retainer from the
beginning would have helped establish who is calling the shots. Suggestions and collaboration is fine, but if the
time clock was ticking there would be less of it. Eight months is a lot of time to spend on one music video, I
would never have lasted that long. They should feel lucky to have you.
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Old 06-29-2017, 12:09 PM   #24
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Interesting thread, I love walking on eggshells.

Here is the problem, once they went from client to friends they felt like they could provide a little more control.
This is one of the reasons why I will not work for free even if it turns into a paid gig. A small retainer from the
beginning would have helped establish who is calling the shots. Suggestions and collaboration is fine, but if the
time clock was ticking there would be less of it. Eight months is a lot of time to spend on one music video, I
would never have lasted that long. They should feel lucky to have you.
My partner has said on multiple occasions that they should be paying me more and that they take me for granted.

My opinion is that no one should work for free, but I know if I turned down free work all the time, I wouldn't be making any steps towards making it a success. It's the nature of the business unfortunately. Here in the UK anyway.

It's one of those situations where I want to direct music videos as a career (well, I want to do features, but we all have to have a day job, right), and I feel the only way to do that is to do it for free at the beginning. Then eventually use that showreel for paid stuff.

The band have actually given me a contract now and said "I work for them", but I haven't got paid yet... so I find that funny.
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:52 PM   #25
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He also wants to continue working with me,
This, I think, is where you put your foot down re getting paid. Specify how much and also when.

On my last feature, I paid the director & the dp a portion when they signed the contract, a portion the day before we went into production, and the balance for the dp when the shoot wrapped. The director's final payment was divided between when we wrapped production & when the editor finished the director's cut.
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Old 06-29-2017, 02:19 PM   #26
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The band have actually given me a contract now and said "I work for them", but I haven't got paid yet... so I find that funny.
What does that mean, you work for them exclusively?
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Old 06-29-2017, 05:11 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by mlesemann View Post
This, I think, is where you put your foot down re getting paid. Specify how much and also when.
That's what I'm going to do. Also, now that they've introduced a contract into the fold, I'm going to demand a few things so I can safe guard me.


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What does that mean, you work for them exclusively?
No, just that they are my client. It's a very basic contract that says I will do work for them, and the footage belongs to them etc. ALTHOUGH, it didn't say anything about pay, and I asked about it and they said they would pay me. I have no reason to distrust them, but if they do end up screwing me over, then I'm going to withhold photos I took for them. And even then, I'm not too fussed. It's annoying, sure, and I do want to get paid. I'm not going to chase it up though. I have too much on my plate as it is.
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Old 06-29-2017, 07:05 PM   #28
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Strictly speaking, you were never working for free. As a photographer, I shoot models and do not charge or pay them. I do the same with hair and makeup artists. Everybody puts in their time, effort, and materials, and we all get images for our respective portfolios. The images are the payment. It is the same with doing music videos for "free" while you are building you reel.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:20 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sucramdoow_ View Post
No, just that they are my client. It's a very basic contract that says I will do work for them, and the footage belongs to them etc. ALTHOUGH, it didn't say anything about pay, and I asked about it and they said they would pay me. I have no reason to distrust them, but if they do end up screwing me over, then I'm going to withhold photos I took for them. And even then, I'm not too fussed. It's annoying, sure, and I do want to get paid. I'm not going to chase it up though. I have too much on my plate as it is.
Be careful of this one. Even if you're happy with the situation as it is right now, you don't want to end up committed to a project of theirs for free and having to turn down paid work for it. Or worse - they pay you a very small amount and you have to turn down much higher paying work because you're in a bind.

You should be up-front about payments: when and how much. If they're not going to pay you, you definitely need to make sure you stipulate what happens if you get offered clashing paid work...
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Old 06-30-2017, 10:25 AM   #30
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So what are you going to ask for in the contract?
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