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Old 12-11-2018, 10:27 PM   #16
oakstreetphotovideo
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Just a side note about backups ...
I've had backup drives fail and then I have to figure out what was on the dead drive and make new backups. I still keep 2 copies on hard drives these days, but I archive all of my source footage to Blu Ray disks for safe keeping. Optical disks don't have electronics to fail or heads to crash and quality media stored in cool, dry conditions can last a very long time.
I use a little utility I wrote to catalog every optical disk after I burn it, so I can find any file by searching the catalog to determine what disk it's on.

I made the leap to FCPX grudgingly because I bought new hardware that came with a newer OS. In the beginning, I hated it. Now I'm pretty happy with it. Someday I need to brush up on Davinci because that is free and has some excellent color correction features. It is also cross platform.

For video editing, I'd recommend a nice iMac over a Mac Pro. Apple did something with the recent iMacs that makes them outperform my 12 core Mac Pro on many editing tasks. You can find people ranting about this in the forums ... it's not just me. I have a 2017 27" iMac with retina display and it makes a great editing machine for 4K. Of course, you'll have to replace your firewire drives with USB-C/Thunderbolt or buy an expensive adapter ... which is why I'm getting tired of Apple and leaning towards other options for the future.

... but I have really digressed.

If you're going to use hard drives as backups, keep some kind of catalog of what is on the drive, so you know what you need to backup somewhere else if it fails. Otherwise, a Blu Ray burner isn't that expensive and 25GB disks are pretty reasonable.
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Old 12-12-2018, 09:54 PM   #17
Jack08
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Originally Posted by AcousticAl View Post
Ho geez. Well, first of all... I never use Seagate. I have G-tech drives cominí out my ears and theyíre compatible with even my older Macs (OS 10.x) that have legacy software on them. Not sure what Seagate did in their drivers that canít work with your 10.4 system but thatís a bit ridiculous. Go get yourself a G-tech drive or two for projects moving forward.

Your 2TB drives are formatted to Fat32 or exFat, which is why they have a 4GB/file limitation. You need to clear one of those drives off and reformat it to HFS using your Macís disk utility. Then you should be able to move as much data as you need to.

USB drives are not for editing. Theyíre for backup. For each project I have a Thunderbolt drive I use for editing, and a USB drive that I use to keep a backup of all my footage, sound, and graphics.



While, in theory, as long as the OS is not updated past compatibility with FCP 6, it is never a good idea to update OS or software mid-edit. It may be fine, but if something goes wrong itíll wreck your project, possibly past the point of getting it back.



If youíre gonna update, youíre gonna need to really update. That means the latest OS and FCPX.

To move a project from FCP6 to FCPX requires a little song and dance. Keep your old Mac running with 10.4.11 and FCP6 in case you need to go back fro any reason. Youíll export an XML file from your FCP6 project. Then youíll use an app called SendToX on your new Mac Pro to import the XML as a FCPX project. Youíll get your timeline back, but youíll lose any color correction and Motion compositing you may have done. Itís better than having to re-edit from scratch by using a reference video.

Just know that the shift from FCP7 and earlier to FCPX is pretty drastic, and X has a bit of a learning curve. But itís worth it in the end.
What you said makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

I just talked to my boss today about purchasing more hard drives. I'll do some research on the G-tech drives. It would be really nice to have some drives compatible with my old mac and modern machines.

That makes sense on HFS+. Thankfully I just found a drive I believe will be perfect for getting my project footage to my old mac editing station! Will let you know how it goes.

I will hold off on updating my Mac then. If all the transferring goes well, I shouldn't have to.

What you said about transferring my project from FCP 6 to X is incredibly useful! I will likely do this once I get our new machine. Gonna research more on which one to get!

I'll also research how to use FCP X when we get it!

Thanks again Acoustic! I would have been WAY more in the dark on so many things if not for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oakstreetphotovideo View Post
Just a side note about backups ...
I've had backup drives fail and then I have to figure out what was on the dead drive and make new backups. I still keep 2 copies on hard drives these days, but I archive all of my source footage to Blu Ray disks for safe keeping. Optical disks don't have electronics to fail or heads to crash and quality media stored in cool, dry conditions can last a very long time.
I use a little utility I wrote to catalog every optical disk after I burn it, so I can find any file by searching the catalog to determine what disk it's on.

I made the leap to FCPX grudgingly because I bought new hardware that came with a newer OS. In the beginning, I hated it. Now I'm pretty happy with it. Someday I need to brush up on Davinci because that is free and has some excellent color correction features. It is also cross platform.

For video editing, I'd recommend a nice iMac over a Mac Pro. Apple did something with the recent iMacs that makes them outperform my 12 core Mac Pro on many editing tasks. You can find people ranting about this in the forums ... it's not just me. I have a 2017 27" iMac with retina display and it makes a great editing machine for 4K. Of course, you'll have to replace your firewire drives with USB-C/Thunderbolt or buy an expensive adapter ... which is why I'm getting tired of Apple and leaning towards other options for the future.

... but I have really digressed.

If you're going to use hard drives as backups, keep some kind of catalog of what is on the drive, so you know what you need to backup somewhere else if it fails. Otherwise, a Blu Ray burner isn't that expensive and 25GB disks are pretty reasonable.
I see, I really needed to hear this! I'll put more thought into how I back up all my data.

One of our doctors seemed to really care about getting the Mac Pro, but I'll bring your perspective to him, which I think he'll appreciate it. I'm so used to old equipment that I need to do a better job keeping up with what would best suit our editing needs!

Thank you so much for your input as well! I'll keep you both in the loop!
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Old 12-31-2018, 01:57 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by AcousticAl View Post
Ho geez. Well, first of all... I never use Seagate. I have G-tech drives cominí out my ears and theyíre compatible with even my older Macs (OS 10.x) that have legacy software on them. Not sure what Seagate did in their drivers that canít work with your 10.4 system but thatís a bit ridiculous. Go get yourself a G-tech drive or two for projects moving forward.
Hi Acoustic, I hope your holidays have been going well!

Good news! After a lot of finagling, I have gotten my data back and have backed it up securely! Thanks again!

So now I am trying to return to editing my project. I think because some data may have been changed a little, a number of time codes don't match up perfectly even (with the audio of each clip), but I'll figure out how to deal with this later. So far I've been managing re-syncing okay.

The external hard drive I was sent from Seagate was not compatible with my old mac, but I transferred the data to a modern mac first, then to my old mac with another hard drive.

The hard drives I have now seem to be usb 3.0 or 2.0, but I think it is forced to run at 2.0 speeds on my old 10.4.11 Mac (which is not fast enough for video files). So now I am looking for the right g-tech editing drive that is compatible with 10.4.11. I am trying to research it and have contacted G-tech to see if they have a recommendation. I'm afraid I also don't know what legacy software is. Can you point me in the right direction so I can research more effectively? It feels like if I just walk into an apple store and ask for something compatible with 10.4.11, they'll just look at me like I'm a dinosaur and say "go away we can't help you"
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Old 01-02-2019, 12:03 PM   #19
AcousticAl
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Originally Posted by Jack08 View Post
.The hard drives I have now seem to be usb 3.0 or 2.0, but I think it is forced to run at 2.0 speeds on my old 10.4.11 Mac (which is not fast enough for video files). So now I am looking for the right g-tech editing drive that is compatible with 10.4.11. I am trying to research it and have contacted G-tech to see if they have a recommendation. I'm afraid I also don't know what legacy software is. Can you point me in the right direction so I can research more effectively? It feels like if I just walk into an apple store and ask for something compatible with 10.4.11, they'll just look at me like I'm a dinosaur and say "go away we can't help you"
You migh want to look at OWC (Other World Computing). With an older Mac and legacy OS, your options may be a little more limited. The biggest thing is that USB is not ample for video editing on a Mac. You need to use the FireWire port on your computer, and connect to a FireWire drive that has a 7200rpm spindle speed.

Itís also important to know whether youíre working with FW400 or FW800. I touched on this earlier in the thread, and all you could tell me was, ďIt says FireWire 800 on the drive.Ē That doesnít tell us what your Mac is using, and FW400 has a very different connector than FW800. There are cables that adapt, but you need to know whatís what.

If your computer only has FW400, you can use a FW800 drive but will only be working at FW400 transfer speeds. If your computer has FW800, then you can use a FW800 drive at FW800 transfer speeds.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:48 PM   #20
Jack08
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Originally Posted by AcousticAl View Post
You migh want to look at OWC (Other World Computing). With an older Mac and legacy OS, your options may be a little more limited. The biggest thing is that USB is not ample for video editing on a Mac. You need to use the FireWire port on your computer, and connect to a FireWire drive that has a 7200rpm spindle speed.

Itís also important to know whether youíre working with FW400 or FW800. I touched on this earlier in the thread, and all you could tell me was, ďIt says FireWire 800 on the drive.Ē That doesnít tell us what your Mac is using, and FW400 has a very different connector than FW800. There are cables that adapt, but you need to know whatís what.

If your computer only has FW400, you can use a FW800 drive but will only be working at FW400 transfer speeds. If your computer has FW800, then you can use a FW800 drive at FW800 transfer speeds.
I see, that is really helpful. I get back to work tomorrow and will check to see exactly whether my cable and computer is using FW 800 or 400. It could very well be 400 and I just assumed it was 800 (which would indeed be bad). I will do all I can to make sure I edit on FW800 if my mac has that port (which I'm pretty sure it does).

OWC looks promising! I'll call them today and just make sure that they have devices that are compatible with 10.4.11, but thankfully from their website it looks like their products are!

Will let you know how it goes. Acoustic you are the absolute best!
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Old 01-03-2019, 06:45 PM   #21
AcousticAl
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It could very well be 400 and I just assumed it was 800 (which would indeed be bad).
Why would it be bad? FW800 is backward-compatible with FW400. There’s no reason not to connect a FW800 drive to a computer’s FW400 port.

Once you get through this project, it’s probably time to speak with your higher-ups about updating your system. The latest iMac models are more than enough to hack away at 4k with speed and grace as long as you incerase the RAM (max it out if you can). Thunderbolt 3 has a much higher data transfer rates, which also means getting new working drives. But if you’re doing this stuff regularly for your job, you need to have updated tools that allow you to work without hitting these legacy-OS-related issues every time something breaks down.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:10 PM   #22
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Why would it be bad? FW800 is backward-compatible with FW400. There’s no reason not to connect a FW800 drive to a computer’s FW400 port.

Once you get through this project, it’s probably time to speak with your higher-ups about updating your system. The latest iMac models are more than enough to hack away at 4k with speed and grace as long as you incerase the RAM (max it out if you can). Thunderbolt 3 has a much higher data transfer rates, which also means getting new working drives. But if you’re doing this stuff regularly for your job, you need to have updated tools that allow you to work without hitting these legacy-OS-related issues every time something breaks down.
Oh I see! I didn't realize it was backwards compatible.

Anyway, thankfully I checked today and I have been editing via FW800 to FW800, drive to mac, this whole time (besides the last few weeks when I've had no proper drive). A LOT of editing in fact, and without taking proper care of the device like with storage space (lesson learned). But it's good that the new OWC drive I purchase will be FW 800, and that my mac has the FW800 port ready for it. I will take far better care of it this time.

And yes I hear you about upgrading. Currently I just want to finish my documentary project via FCP 6 tbh, but in the future I know that I'm really pushing it by not upgrading yet. I believe they'll purchase a new Mac for me in the next few months at least, but I can't say for certain yet. I am still open to transferring the project to FCP X and the new Mac, but am hoping I don't have to.

For now I am talking to my boss and asking for this OWC drive: https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/ME3QH7T8.0/

I think it will work well. I finally feel like I'm mostly out of the woods with all the craziness from the big data loss, but I know I still need to be smarter and more careful. Will keep you in the loop. Thanks again, Acoustic!

Last edited by Jack08; 01-04-2019 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 01-10-2019, 08:44 PM   #23
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Hi Acoustic, so (big surprise) I could really use your opinion again.

After a ton of work troubleshooting and getting files back after my old Lacie hard drive failed, I finally got back to where I was with trying to edit again using a new 8 TB OWC drive. Unfortunately, reconnecting has been a complete mess. I thought things would run smoother if operated with this new powerful drive, but my timeline is still quite slow and unresponsive. I often got the message "some attributes have changed" when reconnecting, and audio desyncs are common. I often get a green screen showing in my canvas after attempting to reconnect files. When I scroll over some footage, the canvas will even change colors instead of show my footage. This is me probably not knowing what I'm talking about, but it feels like some salvaged data is corrupt, and this in turn has corrupted my whole new OWC drive.

Just so you have an idea, here's an image from my timeline:

https://ibb.co/BG1z52m

My faith that I could edit the project on my old mac has never been lower than it is now. I've tried different things with multiple copies of my project file, and every one of them seems to be slow when operating from my brand new drive.

While I think it is possible to fix every single issue that's causing all my problems in FCP 6 on my old mac, I think it'd be easier if I just upgraded to a modern machine (probably an i-mac, need to research more) and started a new editing project from there. I do have a high quality .mov export of my project (the rough cut of the documentary, which still needs a fair amount of things added to it anyway). Do you think it'd be all right if I just imported this video into FCP X or something and just started editing from there? My main footage is in AVCHD MTS files which I assume I could mix in with my large .mov file. I'd imagine exporting your project twice isn't ideal for a professional independent documentary, but it's got to be better than my alternatives.

The light in the tunnel is that my company is willing to upgrade my current mac and editing software asap with practically whatever I want... I'm leaning toward an imac and just learning FCP X.

If I took this action, I'd probably return my OWC drive and get a g-tech drive like you initially once suggested.

Sorry for the wall of text!

Last edited by Jack08; 01-10-2019 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 01-10-2019, 09:09 PM   #24
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My main footage is in AVCHD MTS files which I assume I could mix in with my large .mov file.
I’m fairly certain that you didn’t get as far as you’ve gotten in this project editing from the MTS files. My certainty comes from the fact that FCP (versions 7 and earlier) cannot natively handle MTS files. When you first started the project, you most likely went through a “Log and Transfer” process that converted the files to a usable QuickTime format (ProRes?) that FCP could handle.

I suspect that the data recovery salvaged the original source files from your camera, but did not salvage the converted media. That, or you’re trying to reconnect to the MTS files instead of to the folder with all the converted media.
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Old 01-11-2019, 05:33 PM   #25
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I’m fairly certain that you didn’t get as far as you’ve gotten in this project editing from the MTS files. My certainty comes from the fact that FCP (versions 7 and earlier) cannot natively handle MTS files. When you first started the project, you most likely went through a “Log and Transfer” process that converted the files to a usable QuickTime format (ProRes?) that FCP could handle.

I suspect that the data recovery salvaged the original source files from your camera, but did not salvage the converted media. That, or you’re trying to reconnect to the MTS files instead of to the folder with all the converted media.
Thank you so much for your reply. What you're saying makes sense. I do remember using log and transfer to import. My workflow is steadily coming back to me, which I wish I remembered better.

After giving my whole situation a lot more thought, I realized I made a really stupid mistake when trying to reconnect. Hopefully this means my camera does indeed have the converted files in the scratch folders that I salvaged. Anyway awhile back when I was waiting on the new hard drive situation, I used another camera (which required very different non prores 422 settings) to perform other work on the side. I forgot to change all my sequence settings and the like back to 422. No wonder reconnecting has been a giant mess! Man I wish I were smarter ><

I am currently working through this now and will let you know what happens. Thank you again. I really hope this is my main issue.
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Old 01-14-2019, 06:43 PM   #26
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Hi Acoustic,

So I've made many more attempts to reconnect to get my old FCP 6 Project file working again. Changing my audio/video and sequence settings back to ProRes 422 has helped immensely, but a lot of issues still remain. Probably too many for me to even get into: basically my audio is still often desynced, I get file attribute mis-matches often, dropped frame warnings, and many files simply seem to refuse to reconnect. It's unfortunately still a big mess. I think it is within the realm of possibility to work through every single one of these issues and probably get things back to normal again, but at this point I don't think it's worth it to do it that way.

As I mentioned before, I think I'd be best off editing on a new 27inch imac/FCP X (or maybe Adobe Premiere Pro) using my large exported .mov rough cut file as my starting point. My company needs to upgrade our editing station anyway. There'd be no issues with reconnecting like I described above. I know editing from an already once exported .mov file would probably mean the project won't look/sound quite as good when it's exported again (am I right on this?) but do think it's my best option. It is also kind of a low budget independent documentary (though I still care about it A LOT), so it doesn't have to be "perfect." I see a lot of advantages to upgrading as well.

What do you think? I really value your opinion. Let me know if you could use more info on something; I realize it's a strange situation.

Last edited by Jack08; 01-14-2019 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 01-14-2019, 07:58 PM   #27
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I’ll be honest, as a longtime FCP user: FCP7 and earlier was great at a lot of things. Media management was not one of them. In fact, this was its greatest weakness.

Some of these issues (warnings of changed attributes, slipped audio sync) happened often when trying to reconnect media in an old project. One cause of this was restoring ProRes media from the camera files (re-transcoding). Another was changing the file names outside of FCP. But then, moving the media to another drive and trying to reconnect sometimes did this. So did sneezing wrong near the system.

Yeah, you could move up to FCPX and work from your rough cut .mov, but here’s the problem you face there: all the audio is mixed. There’s no going back on places where sound is layered.

This is never a graceful process. That’s just the reality of it. Sound that’s slightly out of sync is easy enough to nudge back into place. Clips that simply refuse to reconnect? You’re probably better off re-importing those clips and re-editing them into their spots on the timeline. It’s going to be time consuming, but personally I’d rather be able to work with everything in separate elements until I’m done than have to work from an already-mixed video file.

It’s just never a good idea to upgrade systems in the middle of a project (though this is less a software update and more moving to a completely different system.

Plus, FCPX behaves much differently and you’ll find yourself fighting with the magnetic timeline for the first few days. That, to me, is asking for more headache than its worth. Wait to move to FCPX until you are through this project.
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Old 01-14-2019, 08:57 PM   #28
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I’ll be honest, as a longtime FCP user: FCP7 and earlier was great at a lot of things. Media management was not one of them. In fact, this was its greatest weakness.

Some of these issues (warnings of changed attributes, slipped audio sync) happened often when trying to reconnect media in an old project. One cause of this was restoring ProRes media from the camera files (re-transcoding). Another was changing the file names outside of FCP. But then, moving the media to another drive and trying to reconnect sometimes did this. So did sneezing wrong near the system.

Yeah, you could move up to FCPX and work from your rough cut .mov, but here’s the problem you face there: all the audio is mixed. There’s no going back on places where sound is layered.

This is never a graceful process. That’s just the reality of it. Sound that’s slightly out of sync is easy enough to nudge back into place. Clips that simply refuse to reconnect? You’re probably better off re-importing those clips and re-editing them into their spots on the timeline. It’s going to be time consuming, but personally I’d rather be able to work with everything in separate elements until I’m done than have to work from an already-mixed video file.

It’s just never a good idea to upgrade systems in the middle of a project (though this is less a software update and more moving to a completely different system.

Plus, FCPX behaves much differently and you’ll find yourself fighting with the magnetic timeline for the first few days. That, to me, is asking for more headache than its worth. Wait to move to FCPX until you are through this project.
Yeah, I think in most situations, what you're advocating would be the right call. I of course would normally prefer to edit with separate elements than an already mixed video file too. But in this case due to many other factors that would take up a lot of your time reading (feel free to if you happen to have the time), I still do think that starting fresh with FCP X is the better choice in this specific case.

I of course will keep my old mac in case editing on the new one doesn't work out. But here's a list of my reasons why editing on my old FCP 6 project would be more hassle than it's worth:

-Reconnecting is seriously a giant mess. Trying to get everything back on track for my hundreds of files is just ridiculously time-consuming (I also could have done a better job with storage organization), and nudging these hundreds of files to sync up with audio would add a lot of time as well. I do agree that re-importing on the extra tough ones would make everything possible, but that also adds time.

-My new OWC editing drive has been acting kind of funny during the reconnecting process. Part of the reason is likely due to my mis-matched audio video settings, but still even when switching to the right settings during the reconnecting process, the drive doesn't feel reliable. I often need to verify and repair it with Disk Utility (it will take about an hour to "rebuild RAID slice" every so often. If I edit anew on an imac, I would use g-tech drives.

-The vast majority of my rough cut thankfully doesn't need many changes, especially the few parts where I added music. The changes the producer and I have planned are more about adding footage and sequences than drastically changing anything.

-I need to get used to new software anyway in preparation for other projects at work.

-Numerous compatibility issues with modern equipment (such as my external hard drives and AVC-HD footage) will get easier if I use the i-mac.

-My old mac is simply slow at a lot of things. Using a fast system would be advantageous, especially for this large project.

Theoretically, I still think your advice is absolutely correct. But for my specific situation, I think I'd be better off beginning fresh.

I might be a little biased since the reconnecting process has been so aggravating. So I'll sleep on it and try to keep an open mind. Can't thank you enough for your thoughtfulness and helping me so much!

Last edited by Jack08; 01-14-2019 at 09:00 PM.
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