Final Sound Mix Levels

moonshieldmedia said:

What is the target audio level range for the final mix?

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This is another "how long is a piece of string?" type of question. Unless you are mixing to broadcast specifications there are no rules or guidelines.

moonshieldmedia said:

It's a quiet ultra low budget indie with very subtle sound design..... Should I just push it as far as it can go without distorting?

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Well, if it's a "quiet" film should the dialog be as aloud as the score in an action film? Should every door-knock be as loud as a gunshot in a war film?

moonshieldmedia said:

The only way I can get a sense for an acceptable level is by mixing down and testing it next to another film but there has to be an easier way.

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Sure; the easier way is to convert your tracks to Pro Tools, and take them to a full size, Dolby certified mix facility and do the rerecording there. That way you are mixing in a theater similar to the ones in which your project will be screening. That's the easy way; it's also very expensive.

Otherwise you have to do just that; mix and compare to a DVD of a similar film - it's not going to do you much good to compare your quiet film to the mix of "Iron Man 3."



Mixing a feature film without the proper tools and without the proper environment is a really, really tough proposition. I've done exactly the process I described above almost endlessly. I've watched all sorts of films over and over again in my studio - which is isolated and decently treated, but is NOT in any way comparable to a proper mix stage - and the same films in my living room and in a friends living room. When I first got started and was readying to mix a feature or other important project I would watch two or three similar films in all three places several times and try to approximate. I couldn't really approximate, of course, as the project on which I was working was different than the ones I was comparing it to, but at least I had a baseline for comparison. Then I would mix, burn a DVD, and audition the mix, listen to one of the similar films; go back, tweak the mix, burn a DVD, etc., etc. - repeat as needed. The second mix/burn was usually the one as I got more experienced and became thoroughly familiar with my room, but it took me half a dozen or more mixes back when I got started.

I no longer do the round-robin listening sessions. My mixes translate fairly well these days, but are not even in the same league as when I get that rare opportunity to have a project mixed in a proper facility.


I'm sure that APE will chime in.....

Believe me, if I had money I would take this bad boy straight to a professional post production studio. But I'm specifically talking about a temporary DIY mix for DVD that will go to festival programmers. Once selected for a film festival, I will remix for the specific screening requirements.

Anyhow, thanks for the response. The logical side of me hates that art is so subjective... I need answers, trusting my ears simply won't do sometimes!

moonshieldmedia said:

I'm specifically talking about a temporary DIY mix for DVD that will go to festival programmers.

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These are fairly specific instructions.

Alcove Audio said:

mix and compare to a DVD of a similar film ... mix, burn a DVD, and audition the mix, listen to one of the similar films; go back, tweak the mix, burn a DVD, etc., etc. - repeat as needed.

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As I said, that's how I learned, and that's how you're going to get a reasonably translate-able mix.

Alcove Audio said:

Otherwise you have to do just that; mix and compare to a DVD of a similar film - it's not going to do you much good to compare your quiet film to the mix of "Iron Man 3."

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Please, please don't use Man Of Steel either, as a reference. That film was all over the place.

As for mixing, I think you need to get other people to listen to it critically too, if you can't make up your mind. For example, someone might say the speech somewhere is too quiet to understand where you thought it was fine because you know what's being said.

Also, try and mix it so things make sense, the "knocking on a door VS gunshot" comparison was good but that doesn't mean it has to be consistently quiet outside of the loud parts. You can fade in and out depending on the mood and what works for the film.

MetalRenard said:

the "knocking on a door VS gunshot" comparison was good

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moonshieldmedia asked if he should make the mix as loud as he possibly could.

moonshieldmedia said:

Should I just push it as far as it can go without distorting?

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My point was, if the it is a quiet film (which is what he says it is), then the overall levels should not be equal to the levels of a bang-bang-shoot-em-up.

Yep! Wasn't disagreeing.

Thanks for the additional advice MetalRenard.

I guess the whole reason for this thread is that I'm worried my film will be too soft. I was hoping there would be a general rule I could follow to make sure that didn't happen.

I've read elsewhere that -12dB to -10dB is a good rule for your dialogue track, but then there's threads and threads of people saying dB is a relative term and it's different for every project.

I guess trial and error will be my best bet since I have very little experience.

No APE yet?

Mixing is a really tough gig. Different rules apply to theatrical releases and broadcast work. When you mix for broadcast you have to adhere to very strict requirements from the individual broadcasters and (here in the US) the FCC, such as -12dB for dialog. There are no hard and fast rules that apply to theatrical releases.

When it comes to theatrical mixing it is a fairly common practice to use some VERY LIGHT compression on the DX (dialog) buss/submix and sometimes a limiter on the individual tracks, but every rerecording mixer has his/her own process. Other elements of the mix may also be compressed on a clip by clip or track by track basis to bring out details or to get them to punch through the mix a little more. The problem with compression is that it also brings up the noise floor, so very clean audio is required or else you get lots of distracting extraneous noise.

This is also when you need good speakers and a balanced room, otherwise your mix may not translate well once it gets out of your mixing room.

And, just as a point of reference, I spend about one hour of work per minute of film. So take your time, and don't mix things loudly just because you like them. As with every other element of filmmaking, from production through post, you need to serve the story and the characters, not your ego. It can be hard even when you're involved in only one aspect of the film, and even harder when you are doing it all; it's so easy to fall prey to the "unable to see the forest for the trees" syndrome.

A quick story... I had a client - who wrote, directed and starred in his project - who wanted one element in a scene VERY loud. In the scene he jumps in the air and lands on the hood of a car. No matter what I did, volume, EQ, compression, stacking more sounds, he was never happy with it. I found out later that he cracked three ribs doing the stunt, and what he really wanted was for the audience to know was that he injured himself, although it had no relevance to the scene or the story. I finally got something he could (very grudgingly) live with, but, in my opinion, it was still much too loud.

moonshieldmedia said:

My narrative feature film is almost complete. Major festival deadlines are at our doorstep. It's a quiet ultra low budget indie with very subtle sound design. I'll be submitting DVDs with stereo mixes. What is the target audio level range for the final mix?

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To be honest, it probably doesn't matter much as you are asking about the submission DVD rather than an exhibition copy. If it were me, I would probably aim for something around broadcast levels for your submission DVD just to make life a bit easier for whoever will be watching the DVD, considering they'll likely be using a laptop or some other crappy consumer device which might not be able to output levels high enough to hear any subtleties if you submit at theatrical levels. You don't have the equipment to create a broadcast standard mix though, so just aim for peaks no higher than about -2dB and add some compression or limiting.

This is purely for a submission copy though, a mix at the described levels will sound crap in a cinema!! When it comes time to create an exhibition copy post again here, letting us know what the audio specs are and what type of screening venue is being used (ad hoc, cinema, etc.) and we'll try and give you a bit more info. Bare in mind that unlike the submission copy, the exhibition copy is almost certainly going to be far more problematic from an audio point of view and you'll need to allow yourself plenty of time. When you say major festivals, which ones specifically are you looking at?

Alcove Audio said:

When you mix for broadcast you have to adhere to very strict requirements from the individual broadcasters and (here in the US) the FCC, such as -12dB for dialog.

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Actually, it's all changed now, from about a year ago. There is no longer any dialogue anchoring and therefore no absolute dialogue levels for broadcast anymore, just long term integrated loudness for all the program material using the gated and perceptually weighted LKFS scale. It's all detailed in the ATSC A85 spec which became a legal requirement (in the USA) under the CALM act which came into force last December.

G

Itu Standard are always subject to change but currenly there are meters that follow current standards. Wave loudness meter and Izotope's Insight plugins are examples. There has been a shift from peak metering to average metering which makes it a guessing game to follow to a T with out the meter. For most indie film work though if not looking for main broadcast a K-12 meter should work just fine.