new of the new -- getting the most on a new cam

BACKSTORY -- so you will understand what I am asking advice about. I have been a member of IndieTalk a long time, but have not created many threads due to a wide range of projects that I am involved with (most are not story-telling/film-making). I am not rich, famous or want to be, so my projects come from my fairly empty pockets. I enjoy making stuff... my favorite is going from script to screen (and every little 'job' in between). I hate spending/wasting time looking for funding, so I am limited to my own creativity. To me from 'script to screen' is a lot of fun... to my wife (of 35 years) it is an expensive hobby.

WHAT I DO -- Last year using a HDR PJ790 (tiny Sony HD camcorder), I captured 18 hours doing an observational documentary in a four-day festival. This ranged from 40+ interviews (some extremely emotional -- why the small camera helped) to the main events that took place at the Great Lakes FrightFest in Michigan. This was solo with no crew (even did all the contracts/releases). I edited the entire project in 3 weeks, authored to BluRay and DVD-R, made copies for those that wanted copies within a month of the fest. The GLFF is a non profit group that creates a haunted house in 48 hours, opens to the public with all donations going to Animal Shelters, Battered Women Havens and Food Banks, (last year they also contributed to Costumes for Kids and Cancer research). A portion of that Doc will go up on my YouTube channel, at the end of this month -- during the 2015 fest, (their final fest).

NOW MY QUESTION ON CAMERAS -- I am currently looking at purchasing 1 of the 3 following cameras. Keep in mind I am a solo, a Run and Gun user trying to expand the quality of final production (image and audio) within a specific financial range (with the possibility of future projects on a larger screen thus the need for 4K). I cannot use digital-still cameras for obvious reasons. What would my IndieTalk brothers and sisters suggest of the three I am looking at? All three are on B&H website... for consistancy. I do expect to have an opportunity for some access to these cameras BEFORE purchasing. But perhaps you can offer me some foresight before I leap? Pros and cons?

Sony PXW-FS7 4K XDCAM Super35 Camcorder Kit with 28 to 135mm Zoom Lens

Blackmagic Design URSA Mini 4.6K Digital Cinema Camera (PL-Mount)

JVC GY-LS300 4KCAM Handheld S35mm Camcorder

Thank you... Now I will shut up and read your suggestions.
 
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Used FS7 once.
Great image, high quality codec, 150 fps slowmo.
Check the cost of memorycards. Shooting high quality 4K on 64GB means you can shoot for 13 minutes.
Check the compatiblity with your software: the XAVC codec is for instance not supported on Premiere Pro CS6. In HD you can also choose to shoot in MPEG-2 format like on EX-cameras.
 
Yes...

One of the nice features of the FS7, is allowing multi cards to be used at the same time (due to BIG files)... allowing 4K and 1080p formats simultaneously. No need to convert 4K to 1080p. This is a plus for me, when I need to edit and release finished project quickly in 1080p for BluRay. Another plus on all 3 cameras, when one card is filled another automatically starts. All 3 cams also work with an Atomos Shogun for less expensive media storage -- which I have budgeted for.

Walter B, besides large files and expensive cards needed... what made the camera feel 'special' to you. All 3 cameras are great for Run and Gun... but what would you classify as making the FS7 a camera to invest in (for the next 10-15 years)? I can buy a top dog cam every 16-20 years... not rich and not paid for most of my work. LOL... my last BIG camera(s) expenditure was in DVcam, back in 1997... still own 'em and use 'em too. Been saving for a new camera for a long time.

What makes each of these camera(s) special and different?

They are all so much less expensive than a Cion, RED, Sony (like F55)... yet the finished image with XLR audio can be comparable? I am a solo shooter... need such a cam. Thanks for any comments, soaking ideas before renting each one later this summer and then purchasing one in the Autumn, 2015.
 
Keep in mind I am a solo, a Run and Gun user trying to expand the quality of final production (image and audio) within a specific financial range (with the possibility of future projects on a larger screen thus the need for 4K).

Whilst I do empathise with the desire to 'future-proof' camera purchases, there's nothing stopping you from shooting projects 'for a larger screen' in 1080p - the just-released Mad Max: Fury Road for example was shot in 2.6k on Alexas and in 1080p on Canon 5D Mk IIs.

And whilst I'd love an Ursa Mini myself, may I ask why you're considering a PL mount? If you plan to use PL lenses, prepare for some sticker-shock.

All of those cameras have their individual pros and cons - and all of them will likely be obsolete by the time you make your 'larger screen' projects - pick your camera according to what you'll get the most use from now - not some hypothetical point in the future - and given what you've written that screams Canon C100 to me.
 
I rented the LS300 a few weeks ago - it is great for the web and maybe for TV - but the 8-bit codec wouldn't stand up to much grading, in my view. And I had a challenge removing one of my adapters from its MFT mount. I wouldn't have thought much of it, except that Philip Johnston (the "HD Warrior") mentioned a similar problem with the mount on his test camera during his review (his remarks about the locking pin on the mount are at 11:24).

I would also avoid the FS7 - again because of the mount. As Art Adams says in his review:

"The biggest hassle, though, is Sony’s E-mount lens system...Sony’s E-mount is a still lens system designed for light-weight glass, and it does not contain a friction ring: there is a ring that rotates to hold the lens in the mount, but it doesn’t hold the lens firmly at the proper flange focal distance: it has some play in it. While PL-mount to E-mount adapters exist, the weak spot is where the adapter mounts to the camera, at the E-mount...I have to question whether it is suitable for true film-style shooting, due to the weakness inherent in the E-mount..."

If you're going to spend $8,000 for a camera, the lens mount should be able to stand up to the weight of professional lenses.

My vote would be for the $5495 URSA Mini 4.6K PL with the $1495 HD viewfinder and the $395 shoulder mount.

In addition to the advantages of the Positive Lock mount, the URSA is the only camera on your list with a zero skew global shutter and in-camera RAW. It also out-resolves both of the other cameras.

If its image quality and dynamic range are anywhere close to the images produced by the classic URSA with the 4.6K sensor (embedded about a third of the way down this page), the 4.6K URSA Mini will be the poor man's Alexa.

Hope this is helpful and good luck with your decision!

Bill
 
..............

If you're going to spend $8,000 for a camera, the lens mount should be able to stand up to the weight of professional lenses.

......

If you read well, Art only questions it. He doesn't know for sure whether it is strong enough.
I only used the FS7 once with a Canon 70-200mm 2.8L lens, which is a pretty heavy one, but probably not as heavy as some motorised cinelenses. I didn't notice any problems, but I also was not worried about the emount, so I didn't pay close attention to it.

Saying that a mount is designed for still photography doesn't mean a lot. EF, Nikon are still mounts as well.
Only the absense of a friction ring is something worth noting.
So the question is: when is a lens too heavy for an e-mount?
 
I do the research and I go back and forth. I am leaning to the URSA mini, but that specific cam has yet to be released so there is not much out there about the camera in the field. I am aware of the cam it is replacing. I know that the PL mount is a more expensive lens mount, I have looked at the various fixed PL lens out there (and price)... thought the PL glass tends to have a more cinematic nature. Keep in mind -- I have been shooting 'film' since my Filmo and Bolex 16mm days (1960s), BUT, the last 'big' camera that I have worked with (probably far too long) has been the Sony DVcams of the late 1990s and several 'small' prosumer HD cams. I really appreciate the comments on this thread. You are giving me a lot to think about. I do not have a hard time using different cameras, I do have a little bit of a learning curve with some new technolgies. Thanks to all for your input.

Check this out on the PXW-FS7.

Hey Ernest. The Great Lakes FrightFest project was not the one I originally wanted to do... the GLFF was done completely out of my pocket to contribute to various charities and a good organization with nice people that had a great idea.
 
I would also avoid the FS7 - again because of the mount.
If you're going to spend $8,000 for a camera, the lens mount should be able to stand up to the weight of professional lenses.

IMO, the FS7 wasn't designed to have PL lenses mounted on it. It's great that the E mount allows you to do so, but I don't think it was ever the main purpose of the camera. It's designed to have lightweight lenses on it. It's designed to be a great little run 'n' gun camera with small light weight lenses on it.
The minute you put a heavy PL lens on it, you have to start rigging it up like any other camera to be able to handhold it properly. The F5/55 are the cameras I think Sony expects you to put PL mounts on - which is why they come with a PL adapter when you buy them.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't put a PL lens on the FS7, but to say it's not even worth considering is a bit silly. The FS7 is a pretty good camera, and IMO should definitely be at least a consideration. If it was me, I would be leaning towards the FS7 over the URSA.

In addition to the advantages of the Positive Lock mount, the URSA is the only camera on your list with a zero skew global shutter and in-camera RAW. It also out-resolves both of the other cameras.
PL mount as a mount is an advantage, but when you start pricing lenses, it gets expensive. If money is limitless, then great - but I would be more interested in an F5 if that were the case.

If its image quality and dynamic range are anywhere close to the images produced by the classic URSA with the 4.6K sensor (embedded about a third of the way down this page), the 4.6K URSA Mini will be the poor man's Alexa.
I've gotta disagree. The images out of the URSA can be okay, but they take a lot of work to get there, and I would disagree that they look similar to an Alexa.

My concern with Blackmagic is they haven't been making cameras for very long at all, and this is their first foray attempt into making a 'run n gun' capable camera. Could be great. Could also not be great. Their cameras are certainly getting better and better, but I don't think I'd be buying one as my A camera sight unseen. That goes for any camera - if I were buying one, I'd want to spend some time using it to make sure it suits me before I purchase. I'd just feel a lot more comfortable knowing a camera is probably going to fit my needs when buying from Arri or Sony than Blackmagic sight unseen.
 
Holy cr*p you can afford to drop the kind of dough needed to buy a FS7??? Remember, you'll need to double or even triple+ the price of a FS7 body to fully get it up and working.

Also I don't believe even an FS7 (which is my dream camera BTW outside an Arri Alexa) will last a person 10 or 15yrs, it will be so incredibly out of date by then.

Given your background, why not just get the vastly cheaper Sony PXW-X70 instead?
 
IronFilm,

I save about $1,000.00 a year from the little projects I do collect minor amounts of money from. Yeah, I have a couple very small HD cams that I can carry easily, like a Sony HDR PJ790... they come in very handy and image works for projects up to BluRay. The last big cameras I bought were 3 large DVcam back in the late 1990s (spent around $16,000.00 for cams and needed accessories)... Everything still works and gets used, BTY. I take very good care of my equipment, my house, cars and friends; never know when you will need to grab one quickly. Also, I think with 4K/HD one might see the technology of the 'image' start to slow (cameras will get smaller but the quality of the image can only go so far)... Whatever I do end up buying -- believe me, the cam will get treated well and will continue to be used well past 2030... SO, back to point... what did you think of the FS7 ? A sample of what I do (done with HD AND 1990 DVcam cameras)... WATCH IN 1080p!
 
Well, as I stated before I'd love to have a FS7. I think it is an awesome camera. (I haven't shot with it yet, but been a DoP with the previous FS700)

However the cost to get started with it is very steep. It is not just the body which is $8k. You'll need the media which will run several thousand more. Power for another grand or so. Rigging will cost a grand or two more. Depending on your current gear you'll need to upgrade your support gear to cope with the extra weight (tripod/sliders/etc), which is several thousands more again. For lenses to justify the camera purchase you'll need to spend as much as the camera body costs again, or even double that. You may want a different EVF, there goes another grand or two more. And so on and so on.

Total kit costs varies of course a lot from one person to another, but I wouldn't be surprised to see in the realm of $30k for a kitted out Sony FS7. I certainly wouldn't be going less than twenty thousand.

I wouldn't at all recommend leaping straight to that level (large sensor cinema grade pro camera) from a small handy cam or DVX level experience beforehand. As the law or diminishing returns has already kicked in hard long before now.

I'd suggest instead going with a Sony A7s / A6000 instead, and you can build up a nice kit around the Sony E mount in the process and start learning more about that different style/workflow. Then perhaps upgrade to the next step up of the FS7 in another two or three years at a hugely reduced upfront cost. (Though I suspect even then, it would still be hugely superfluous)

Alternatively, go with the JVC GY-LS300, it sounds like it could be well suited for your needs and background. (Pity there isn't a Panasonic AF200.... otherwise I'd recommend that in a heart beat. Although there is the Panasonic DVX200).
 
The Sony FS7 is my next upgrade route, I disagree that you cant buy it and use it stock.. you certainly can..

also think about the Canon Cinema line, the c100/c300 are very cheap right now and perfect for run and gun (gotta love the high ISO aswell).

overall if i was run and gun I would choose between these two cameras.. (I would lean towards FS7..)

Apparently Premiere Pro CC can natively edit the XAVC files so no issues there..
 
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I rented the FS7 with a metabones adapter and some canon glas: 24-70 2.8L and 70-200mm 2.8L.
Didn't need another tripod.
Yes, having enough memory cards costs money.

But double or triple the cost of a body?
If you have no glass you could double it indeed.
 
Just about to go out and haven't read the topic replies, but I'd likely go for the URSA mini, for your application. We have an FS7 here, LOVE it. But running around with it alone all day is going to be pretty hard work. An URSA mini on the other hand, no worries! Need to see what firmware is like with it, though.
 
An URSA mini on the other hand, no worries!

How can you possibly say that when it hasn't even shipped yet? Are you basing your assumption on extensive real world use, or just on some pictures and maybe looking at one in person..?

Sometimes I wish RED would never have popularised this 'buying unfinished cameras off the spec sheet' idea.
 
Just about to go out and haven't read the topic replies, but I'd likely go for the URSA mini, for your application. We have an FS7 here, LOVE it. But running around with it alone all day is going to be pretty hard work. An URSA mini on the other hand, no worries! Need to see what firmware is like with it, though.

Why is it less hard work?

The URSA mini body weighs 2,27 kg, the FS7 body weighs 2,0 kg (which means the FS7 body + battery weighs as much as a powerless URSA mini)

The FS7 with viewfinder, top handle, gripremote, battery, SELP28135G Lens and eyepiece weighs 4,4 kg
What the URSA mini weighs with tophandle, viewfinder, shouldermount and V-lock battery: I don't know: haven't seen any numbers on it.
It could be less, the same or mory that the FS7...

Paper specs and speculations are hard to compare with stuff that is out there.
In a few months we'll know more...
 
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