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"Star Wars", and a couple thoughts on structure

Nothing major to discuss here. But I noticed something, last night, that I think is a rather significant example of how we can really get overly academic with screenwriting, sometimes.

A lot of us, myself included, like to follow a particular methodology with screenwriting. It being the only method I've significantly read about (and I like it), I follow the "Save the Cat" method. However, it's been relayed to me that Blake Snyder didn't really invent a new method, he just did an awesome job teaching it in everyday language, and that his method is actually really close to a great deal of other screenwriting methods.

If you're not familiar with his work, or any of those similar to his, I can sum it up quickly by saying that he provides a clearly-defined structure that screenplays should follow. Major events are clearly defined, and there is a fairly exact order in which these events should take place.

A quick example -- towards the end of the first act, there should be the "Catalyst", the event that propels our hero into the second act. After that, we need the "Debate", in which the hero questions/ponders whether they should or shouldn't do whatever is needed to actually move into the second act.

In "Star Wars", you could very easily say that the "Catalyst" is
the murder of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.
And the "Debate" is
Luke's whiny protesting to Obi Wan's insistence that Luke follow him to Alderan, and learn the ways of the force.

Okay, great, so Lucas was following the "Save the Cat" methodology, and he never even knew it. But wait! In "Star Wars", the Debate comes before the Catalyst. Once our catalyst happens, the decision to move forward into the second act is pretty straight-forward. Luke doesn't really have a decision to make, actually -- at that point, what else is he going to do?

So, here we have a pretty clear example of a very successful movie, loved the world over, cherished by pretty much all of us, and it's breaking the rules of screenwriting!

But the backwards order of the Debate and Catalyst isn't what got me thinking, last night, but the very late introduction of Luke. The pre-Luke part of the story, which pretty much belongs to R2D2 and C3PO, is rather long. There's an age-old rule that says that all major players should be introduced within the first ten pages or so, right? But Luke's introduction is seriously stretching that 10-minute limit, and he's the freaking protagonist! Han's introduction comes significantly later.

Furthermore, the second and third acts are kind of strange, and I think you'd be hard-pressed to force-fit them into Snyder's, or anyone else's, super-defined methodology. The reason I say this is because this is Luke's story, is it not? But his goals aren't all that clearly defined from the beginning, at least in relation to
the destruction of the Death Star.
From Luke's perspective (and the audience's, really), he only sets out to
save a captured princess.
And he does; great, so the movie should be over. But wait! There's more! What comes next is barely even referenced, earlier in the movie, and our protagonist never had any inkling that this was where he'd be heading, eventually.

Anyway, my ramblings are only to illustrate that though I'm a fan of having some kind of structure, it's important to remember that an over-reliance on pre-prescribed structure can be a serious detriment. I mean, here we have the most influential movie of our generation, and it's breaking rules all over the place!

Your thoughts?
 
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Sure you can't escape what we call 'gravity.' But technically, Newtonian gravity doesn't really exist. Rather, it's the curvature of space-time that creates the effect we call 'gravity.'

Thats kinda what I was getting at. hanks for backing me up Dreddy. Things are only "the way" until new "ways" are discovered. The accepted gravity is defined as the force the keeps us planted on a body of mass. Likewise, the larger the mass the stronger the force. But this can change once longer space missions are accomplished. Maybe its something even more sublime than we imagined. Everything human defined as fact, "the way", the rules, are all subject to change.
 
Dreadylocks,

Both your points bring up interesting thoughts.

Lucas has changes the “history” of the story so often I can’t
believe anything he says about his method or his original intent.
If he did at one time want the story to be about the robots it was
because he watched “The Hidden fortress” and didn’t quite
understand who the protagonist was. He wrote the script and then
(perhaps) watched the Kurosawa film again. That he realized he
needed a true protagonist is likely to have come from his interest
in Campbell.

What ever the process, he ended up writing a very classic story
with all the archetypes in a unique way. When you read the rest of
the comments you will find out that Luke actual does make his
first appearance on page 8.

Your second point is why I hate the films. In the large picture I
now hate all six films. The story is now about Vader - he is the
protagonist of the six stories. If you now break down the six into
the three acts we have a story that redeems evil. It’s not a
redemption story - it is a story that redeems evil. And this is a
story I do not relate to

The reason I would reject your second point is because I do not
believe the Lucas version he told in the late ‘90’s that he had
this entire six story arc in mind when he wrote “Star Wars” in
1975. When he was writing in the mid ‘70’s he was not thinking
that Vader was the protagonist.
 
The reason I would reject your second point is because I do not
believe the Lucas version he told in the late ‘90’s that he had
this entire six story arc in mind when he wrote “Star Wars” in
1975. When he was writing in the mid ‘70’s he was not thinking
that Vader was the protagonist.

Fair enough. And I think that's part of the reason that a lot of Star Wars fans are not fans of George Lucas. He plays god with his universe (which I suppose is his prerogative), but it can be very annoying when he wants to go back and break his own cannon.
 
Fair enough. And I think that's part of the reason that a lot of Star Wars fans are not fans of George Lucas. He plays god with his universe (which I suppose is his prerogative), but it can be very annoying when he wants to go back and break his own cannon.

But, it wasn't him.

I assume everyone in this conversation has seen this, but it's worth posting, just in case it's new to anybody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BMgegut3UM

That's interesting that it was originally written with C3PO and R2D2 as the protags. You can still see remnants of that.

P.S. The reason I was thinking about this the other night was because a new friend at work had never seen it, so we brought her over to my place, to see it on my projector. I was curious/worried how it would translate to someone who wasn't even alive when it was made. I've got some friends who've shown it to their young children, and they've loved it, but would a young adult like it?

I'm happy to report that she liked it, a lot. And, based on her comments about the movie, I suspect "Empire" is going to blow her away.
 
Sean hates the originals, thinks the prequels are better, thinks they're boring.

I half agree with him, but I still love the originals. They're nostalgic for me, plus, you just have to learn to enjoy a slow-paced movie sometimes.
 
Sean hates the originals, thinks the prequels are better, thinks they're boring.

I half agree with him, but I still love the originals. They're nostalgic for me, plus, you just have to learn to enjoy a slow-paced movie sometimes.

I enjoy the prequels, quite a bit, but really just for two reasons:

1. John Williams out-did himself.
2. The spectacle of the action/battle sequences are simply amazing, in my opinion.

From the perspective of story, the prequels are just so clunky. Way too much political blabber. And Annakin's motivation for turning to the dark-side? Barf-worthy.

The prequels don't have any "But Luke, I am your father" moments. And then the ultimate confrontation/conversion in "Jedi" -- perfect!
 
Well you can always break the rules of screenwriting. They are just mainly guidelines, to get a good idea of what to do I suppose. A catalyst is something that causes a character to react or something like that I read, so it seems that the term is very subjective, since in a good story, the protagonist will be given motive to do something multiple times throughout, as the challenge takes different twists and turns.
 
Seriously, you guys wanna debate gravity? That's like debating, uhh...gravity!

Dready, I appreciate the fact that many of today's top physicists are talking about space-time. However, by it's very nature it is unobservable, so any discussion of it is so theoretical that it borders on philosophy, not science.

But really, we're just talking semantics, are we not? Over time, our understanding of how gravity works may very well increase, but that doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist. If the word "gravity" bugs you, we could agree to call it the Law of When You Drop Shit, It Falls. That law will never change.

blackthorn, yes, some rules are, for all intents and purposes, set in stone. Sure, technically, everything is open to debate, but some debates are pointless. Try debating the Pythagorean Theorem with a mathmetician, or the Theory of Natural Selection with a biologist. Like the Law of Gravity, you can safely predict that none of these are going anywhere. Technically, sure, you can debate them. But in reality, yeah, they're basically set in stone.
 
It has occurred to me that there might be a better way to explain how set in stone gravity is. As blackthorn points out, all of science is open for debate. Religion, however, is not, so please allow me to quote a passage from the bible. This is from the book of Genesis:

One day, Adam and Eve were eating apples, in the garden. Jesus happened to be walking by, and he said, "Dude! You know I'm gonna be crucified for that, thanks. I hope it's delicious." Adam, not picking up on the sarcasm, replied, "Jesus, if you had any idea, you'd be eating apples, too."

Just then, Jesus' ride arrived. Mary Magdalene pulled up to the curb, in a jeep, with the top down, listening to R. Kelley's "Keep it on the Down-Low". As Jesus got into the jeep, Adam said, "But wait, we're almost finished with this apple, and we'd really like another. Can you help us get one down from the tree?"

Annoyed, Jesus responded, "You'll just have to be patient. Eventually, the apple you want will fall from the tree, when it becomes too heavy." Confused, Adam asked, "But, how do we know for sure that it will fall? What if it just floats around?"

"Nope.", Jesus said, "It will definitely fall. What a lot of people don't realize is that, on the 2nd day, right after my dad said 'let there be Earth, and shit', he also said, 'and let there be gravity, because we don't want everything just floating around, aimlessly'."

Just then, an apple fell from the tree. Eve picked it up, and gave it to Adam. Before driving away, with Mary Magdalene, Jesus winked at Adam, and said, "Booya".

Therefore, gravity exists. :D
 
It has occurred to me that there might be a better way to explain how set in stone gravity is. As blackthorn points out, all of science is open for debate. Religion, however, is not, so please allow me to quote a passage from the bible. This is from the book of Genesis:



Therefore, gravity exists. :D

Jeep wrangler?
 
It has occurred to me that there might be a better way to explain how set in stone gravity is. As blackthorn points out, all of science is open for debate. Religion, however, is not, so please allow me to quote a passage from the bible. This is from the book of Genesis:



Therefore, gravity exists. :D

I'm checking every big fancy book I can find and I honestly can't find a way to disprove your argument....
 
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