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Question about hiring a proofreader.

I want to hire one to see if my script is good and what structural problems I need to fix. However, I am about two thirds finished the written script. Do you think that I need to hire a proofreader to look at the whole script? I mean I am on the first draft, so it will be a while before I hire one, but I feel that I probably shouldn't continue. I watched this tutorial, and John Truby seems to think that's it's better to show a proofreader the scene list (or treatment), only. He says so at 3:20:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VNJ1mzFHNA

This way, a proofreader can spot the structural problems alone, just in the scene list, without having to go through all the dialogue and what not. And by doing it this way, you don't even have to write a first draft yet. You might as well see if your idea works in the scene list, before even writing the first draft. What do you think? Should I not finish the first draft right now, and just hire a proofreader to go over the scene list first, to see if it's even work-able perhaps?
 
Oh boy... here we go again...

Prediction time.... 2 months from now I predict a "I don't think I got my monies worth from the proofreader, they didn't tell me how to turn it into a billion dollar blockbuster, do I really have to pay them"
 
I try to get it as best as I can personally before getting feedback.

The alternative is to have a co-writer, in which case you bring them in ASAP.
 
Here’s another idea – post it here.

There are plenty of people here who would be happy to give you feedback. Maybe not professionals, but people with a good eye for story and a good ear for dialogue. I’ve posted plenty of scripts in the forum and I’ve gotten some great feedback. And you know what, it was free!
 
I want to hire one to see if my script is good and what structural problems I need to fix. However, I am about two thirds finished the written script. Do you think that I need to hire a proofreader to look at the whole script? I mean I am on the first draft, so it will be a while before I hire one, but I feel that I probably shouldn't continue. ... This way, a proofreader can spot the structural problems alone, just in the scene list, without having to go through all the dialogue and what not. And by doing it this way, you don't even have to write a first draft yet. You might as well see if your idea works in the scene list, before even writing the first draft. What do you think? Should I not finish the first draft right now, and just hire a proofreader to go over the scene list first, to see if it's even work-able perhaps?

Let's first sort out terms. A proofreader will check spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. That can be very important but they aren't necessarily qualified to advise you on your script (cheap). A script reviewer will often give you 2-3 page feedback about your script's character and story development, structure, formatting and issues that should be corrected (inexpensive). A script consultant will often work with you to strengthen your story and often helps with coverage (marketability) and preparing summaries/treatments/loglines (expensive). A script doctor (or ghostwriter) will take your idea and produce a script for you that you can market under your own name (can be very expensive).

If you want someone who will give you quality feedback, you don't want a proofreader. Be sure the person you hire to review your script has some experience and credentials. While many reviewers will point out grammar and spelling issues, it's not their job to clean up your work. They are paid for their knowledge of screenwriting.

Second, you should have a finished script to submit. Giving a mechanic your car in pieces and asking for an opinion about its resale value is ludicrous. At the moment, it's just "junk". The same is true of an unfinished script. Once you've finished it, then a more reliable assessment can be made of your story, structure, dialogue, plot, character development, etc. While a reviewer can give you some general feedback based on your unfinished work, that can be precarious. Often the advice is given with no clear idea how you wish to end the piece. The writer may work to refine the middle and find their ending no longer works. That's not always bad but it can be frustrating. Knowing the ending, the reviewer can sometimes suggest alternate routes to get there.

The scene list is pretty useless if you don't have a complete script. John Truby has great advice. My problem is that what he says initially comes across wrong until he explains himself. For people who only listen to the first catchphrases, they are misled. Initially, writers shouldn't just put their ideas down ("vomit drafts"). He qualifies that writers should do solid planning and not just write off the top of their heads. In consulting, he can see the problems just by seeing the scene list. He qualifies this that structural and pacing issues become apparent looking at how scenes are sequenced. Some structural issues will jump out immediately. A long series of DAY or NIGHT shots mean the 'movie time' is moving very slowly. While rapid alternations in locations and times can suggest filming issues that could become production nightmares. Since there are so many factors that play into it, the scene list is a useful though not definitive tool in looking at pacing and structure. Rightly or wrongly, it's fairly easy for a writer to justify, "Well, it needs to happen here and then because ...."

Let's imagine worst case. You hire a script reviewer for a couple hundred dollars to give you expert feedback on your script. S/He tells you that your character development is poor, the story line is muddy, the premise and action is unbelievable to this point and the pacing is off. In addition, there are numerous spelling, grammar and formatting issues. What is your response going to be?

When consulting, I'd have to say most of the time the major problems are structural and character development. The script is slow and the characters are blah. If writers want to be told how great they are, that's what family and friends are for. I've only run across a handful of masterful scripts. And often the writers have been working at it for years when I read their pieces. If you haven't planned out your script in advance (echoing Truby), then odds are the pacing is uneven. A solid understanding of the beats helps. I'm not saying to write to page counts in a formulaic way. I've read those too and they are just as bad.

How the process works varies by reviewer. As a reader, the first 10-15 pages tell me tons about the script. If a writer can't sell me the story, characters and use good formatting in that interval, the rest of the script often doesn't get any better and it's a pass. If a writer sells me there, I'll read the whole draft. From that point, I can often give more specific notes. As a reviewer, I'm paid to be bored out of my skull. I try to be gentle, but let's face it bad is bad. Writing is part art and part craft. The craft side can be tweaked. The art side is more or less innate. I believe it can be developed over time but most new writers want to be superb instantly, hence the success of Blake Snyder's beat sheets (the screenwriting equivalent of Bob Ross' art techniques).

After reading a couple hundred scripts, it's easy to distinguish technique from talent. New writers complain "... but look at X written by Y. It does the same thing." Fine. You aren't Y and you didn't write X. Chances are, X isn't what Y wrote but a doctored version. Nonetheless, my point is that as a writer receiving feedback, you can either respond defensively or stepping back, think about it and apply it. Nobody says a writer can't have several variations of the original idea. Each time a writer comes at it, s/he is learning more about the story, the characters and the craft.

You might want to hold off paying for a script review until you have a finished first draft. At that point, you'll have outlined all the scenes for your film if you want to ship it off to Truby. Other reviewers would look at the list and wonder what they're supposed to do with it or tell you. In the interim, you might post a link to the first 10-15 pages on the IndieTalk forum for feedback.
 
Okay thanks. I talked to a person who calls herself a proofreader, but based on her job, she is more of a script reviewer. I guess that's what I want. I will hire a proofreader first probably and finish the script then.
 
Okay thanks, I will do so too. However, at what point of the screenwriting stage, should I hire one? Should I hire one after the second draft say, or should I hire one before I even start the first draft, and they just come in and start consulting the scene sequence in order to write the first draft well to begin with?
 
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Okay thanks, I will. Does anybody know where is a good website or place to look to hire one? I put out some adds, on craigslist but no takers so far. There are writing consultants when it comes to books, but not screenplays particularly so far responding.

Any tips on what I should be looking for when hiring one? How much is an expected pay rate?
 
Any tips on what I should be looking for when hiring one?

Track record. Do they have a track record of script being doctored making significant money in the box office.

How much is an expected pay rate?

For the good ones? Lots. I'd expect 6+ figures.

I put out some adds, on craigslist but no takers so far.

Wonder why.

How much do you have to spend? What you have to spend will alter where you shop.
 
Okay thanks. Without having that kind of money, how do you know if your script is any good? Do a lot of filmmakers working on microbudgets, just go ahead and make their movies without hiring one? I certainly would not want do to that.
 
Do you once again want to go down the rabbit hole of the blind leading the blind?

That price I'm talking about the very best in the world. Are you happy to settle for less? If so, there will be plenty of people more than willing to take your money. Hell, I can even line you up with some of them.

Great writers cost great amounts of money and there are still no guarantees. It's the same with the great directors and great actors.
 
Okay thanks. What about all the indie films that were made, for less than 6 figures in the entire budget? How were they able to afford script consultants, or what did they do to get writing help?
 
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Try something that might gain you better answers. Go find those people you're talking about and ask them.

There's very little information that's written about these kind of movies, more particularly about this subject. There's a lot that floats around for the high end stuff.
 
You have lots of good advice from the folks above.

For honest and constructive script feedback I can highly recommend:

http://reelauthors.com/

... Note I do plenty of work for them.

They will be honest though so if you decide to use them expect honest feedback - if they do not like your script they will say so but they'll obviously give lots of guidance on how to improve it.

Avoid the script "doctors" and gurus that charge $200+ per hr. :no:
 
I want to hire one to see if my script is good and what structural problems I need to fix. However, I am about two thirds finished the written script. Do you think that I need to hire a proofreader to look at the whole script? I mean I am on the first draft, so it will be a while before I hire one, but I feel that I probably shouldn't continue. I watched this tutorial, and John Truby seems to think that's it's better to show a proofreader the scene list (or treatment), only. He says so at 3:20:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VNJ1mzFHNA

This way, a proofreader can spot the structural problems alone, just in the scene list, without having to go through all the dialogue and what not. And by doing it this way, you don't even have to write a first draft yet. You might as well see if your idea works in the scene list, before even writing the first draft. What do you think? Should I not finish the first draft right now, and just hire a proofreader to go over the scene list first, to see if it's even work-able perhaps?

a proofreader is different from someone with experience with scripts
scripts dont need proofs books do. Scripts are one liners you dont need that proofed.


other than that you can write or you cant
 
Okay thanks, I will do so too. However, at what point of the screenwriting stage, should I hire one? Should I hire one after the second draft say, or should I hire one before I even start the first draft, and they just come in and start consulting the scene sequence in order to write the first draft well to begin with?
Ideally, after you've completed your first or second draft. You're the architect of your story. If you are looking to hire someone to help co-write or ghostwrite your script, you are talking more money to compensate their creativity. That's essentially what you would pay for with an unfinished script. Getting a script review, however, would be looking over your finished draft and giving you feedback about how to improve it. I often encourage writers to make their own first pass through a draft themselves. There are often lots of errors you can pick up yourself before sending it for a review. A script review is generally inexpensive.

Okay thanks, I will. Does anybody know where is a good website or place to look to hire one? I put out some adds, on craigslist but no takers so far. There are writing consultants when it comes to books, but not screenplays particularly so far responding.

Any tips on what I should be looking for when hiring one? How much is an expected pay rate?
There are various services on the internet if you search for 'script review services'. You need to be careful as there are also many scams out there. Do a background check on the company and/or individual. Especially on CL, you'll find individuals offering to write your screenplay or treatments. It's buyer beware. You should ask what kind of feedback you will receive. Many services will list the kind of feedback they provide. One service I worked with had 24 points that they covered along with feedback on characters, plot, development and marketability. For a good review, you should expect to pay between $150-$250. Often if you take a screenwriting workshop locally, you get feedback as part of the registration cost. You may check to see if your local community college or library offers workshops.

Okay thanks. What about all the indie films that were made, for less than 6 figures in the entire budget? How were they able to afford script consultants, or what did they do to get writing help?
Often they will have someone they contract. When on contract, a consultant agrees to read so many scripts for $ X and give feedback to the producer. The production company often provides their own criteria. The script is evaluated for quality and appropriateness. Sometimes, it gets quick coverage to ballpark a budget if part of the contract. When under contract, consultants often don't accept unsolicited private manuscripts for legal reasons. I know writers don't believe it but so many scripts, especially dramas, tend to resemble each other. Sometimes it's about who did it better, not originality.

Having a consultant in the wings is sometimes cheaper for a production company than going back and forth with a writer. Especially if the writer isn't seasoned, or the concept is good but the execution is lacking. I am sometimes hired to help revise a script that they want to develop. Not every script is made into a film. The reality is that financing and assets cannot always be secured. For any number of reasons a project can be dropped if they can't package it for investors.

Importantly, most of these Indie projects like Sundance have expert writers as consultants. Many tap into local experts. See how much a local screenwriting instructor would charge you to review your work. S/He may do it for free or low cost. The advantage of taking a class or workshop is that you will have ongoing help to craft your screenplay as well as feedback. While you don't have to go to film school or get an MFA, there is much to be said for working with others in that environment. It can accelerate developing your skills.

While you could do it either way, I think you would be wiser to finish your first draft before you pay someone to review it.
 
Okay thanks. That price range is definitely fine. There are classes available locally when it comes writing fiction in general, but not screenplays particularly. There is film school which offers that, but it is quite a bit of money, and three people so far I met who went there, said don't go, you don't learn enough of what you need to. I took a tour myself but a lot of it is dedicated to certain aspects of filmmaking, mostly camera and lighting, but not so much screenwriting.

Also I wrote a script that takes place in quite a few places that requires more than a few actors. I know I kind of went against the rules when it comes to low budget, and perhaps a writing consultant can help me with that. However, the more I tried to write a story with just one location and two actors, the more writer's block I got. I was unable to logically set a whole story in one location and have it make the most sense or have it have the most development. But I did write certain scenes where I could use the location again. For example, when lawyers and judges have meetings, I could use the same meeting room each time. There is one section where about an eighth of the story takes place inside a house, a kidnapping scenario. There is also a suspenseful sequence that takes place in the park at night when no one is around. I tried my best to write it to cheaper locations, but sometimes not only does it get in the way of logic of the plot, it also gets in the way of character development. The two most difficult locations to secure will probably be a police station and a courtroom but it's hard to write a story where criminal investigations and criminal cases are done outside of court or a station for that matter.

Another example there is one scene where a ransom exchange must be made between the good guys and villains. I can't write it so the bad guy tells the good guys to meet at a private owned house, that's not logical. It has to be a public place. Or for example, there is a scene where the villain is hanging out in a bar. I could have wrote so he is in his house, but I wanted to show what his character is like in social situations, and feel that giving him a house scene may take away some of his character development, if he just talks about what he does in his social life, rather than showing some of it.

However, setting the script in different locations with more than a few actors may have given me an advantage. I talked to actors I know for a film shoot, not this one, another one I am helping out on. Some of the actors said they do not want the lead roles because they are too busy take on such large parts that's screentime for almost the whole thing. And from my experience a lot of location owners do not want you on the location for more than a few hours only at most. They would most likely never agree to almost a whole movie being shot there. That is one reason why I kept a lot of scenes short such as the bar scene, and others. Do you think that perhaps having more locations and more actors can work to your advantage since many cannot lend a lot of time and resources for a low budget movie? Or should I ask a writing consultant to try and fix a lot of this?
 
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You raised a lot of good points. Now what you will find is there are two opinions, both valid in the context production. One view, which RayW, GuerillaAngel and others will push, is that you write a script to your budget. This is very important if you're writing your own film to shoot. Taking a great script and shredding it to pieces to meet the resources at hand results in frustration and a bad movie.

The other, if you're going to market a script, is to write and develop it the way you envision it. This allows the director and producer freedom to see the scope and make changes based on funds they can raise. If they can secure overseas advances or have other investors, the script may get a $500K+ budget. Once they have their money on the table, they will decide what to do. So you do need to know up front if you're writing this to produce yourself (write to your budget) or pitching it (others produce it).

Both are valid in context who who does the work. It's easier to pare back your idea on paper as a director/producer once you've identified all your resources. And sometimes you're surprised after a successful pre-production campaign. Many major film scripts are altered on the fly to stay on budget. That's the nature of the beast. Keeping to a budget is the line producer's role. They often have to rein in the director. When Tarantino wrote "Reservoir Dogs" it was with a $30K budget in mind, but getting a boost to $1.5 M changed the production. He said if he knew the budget he'd get later, he'd have written it differently. For that reason, I often suggest writing the story the way you imagine whether selling or making it yourself.

This is a board with many successful indie filmmakers who make their own films. And they are quite correct that it's a waste of time for them to write something they can't produce up front. On screenwriting boards, though, you have writers who are not filmmakers themselves who simply have stories they want to make into scripts. Sometimes, the opposite role is needed to keep their ideas in a realistic, producible range.

The role of the consultant then is to be an intermediary, between creative work (writing) and productive work (production). Some companies, especially larger ones, like to have consultants to help clean up scripts. The consultant doesn't get the money paid for the script's purchase or all the bonuses being the original writer. However, for a reasonable cost, the company can get a script polished. Most option contracts allow for the original writer to be asked to make x number of requested revisions to their script. But if they need it done quickly and aren't satisfied with the quality, rather than discard a script, it will be passed to be doctored. This is sometimes done by the director or producer. Sometimes even directors have friends that they pay to fix their scripts (even some big directors). In those cases, a production consultant has a good idea of the budget already, a luxury most spec writers don't have. Nor does it really help most new writers to know the budget to be honest if they've never worked on a set as a PA or director.

When I work with a production company, I'm either given a budget or asked to give rough estimate. When I simply review a script, the production cost is not my focus normally. Largely because there are often more critical problems with execution. Once the script is at a quality I would recommend it for production, then it's time to make it "production friendly". Again you'll get other advice that is context dependent. All I can give are some very sketchy rules of thumb. Production costs money. Wearing a producer's hat, my thought is what budget range is this script appropriate for. Putting on that hat too early in the writing process stifles creativity.

It costs money to use a location, so all those shots will be done at one time usually, even if out of time sequence. So yes, fewer locations are better in all cases. If a place is used only once for less than half a page, relocate that action to an existing location. Remember that locations require transportation, rent, set-up and take-down (crew time and money). If you have a bar scene and it's important, re-think other scenes that can either be moved to the bar to justify keeping it or move the action from that scene to another location that can serve as a similar backdrop.

Interior locations should outnumber exterior. Interior shots provide more control over lighting and sound quality. They are less influenced by weather conditions. Obviously this is dependent on the story but from a producer/director's cap, having control over shoot quality is paramount. A company may have access to a studio or green screen facility so there is more freedom in the number of perceived locations. On a No/Lo budget, though, pretty much what you see is where it's shot.

No/Lo budgets (<$20K) should try to limit to 3 physical locations. Micro ($20-$50K) and ULB (Ultra Low Budgets, $50K-$100K) up to 6 physical locations. Budgets above $100K have far more freedom. This needs to be balanced with props, wardrobe, salaries, etc. PLEASE, these are not written in stone but just rough guides I find helpful. If you have a home green screen, you can have more than 3 locations on a No/Lo. What I mean is for rented, physical locations. And for larger productions, that could be a studio or green screen facility. As producer, I wouldn't say, "Oh, you're a No/Lo but you have five locations, cut two". I would ask you to evaluate can you realistically shoot in those five physical locations given money and schedule constraints? How else could that be moved around? That often requires a script re-write.

Producers/directors are creative. One building (physical location) may have two or three scene location shots. Three buildings might get 6-9 scene locations. Maybe 3-4 more with exteriors. To arbitrarily say three "locations" is very narrowminded from a creative standpoint. Each of those scenes will still require production time and money. If I get a script written with 12 physically distinctive locations and my production company works in the ULB range, the script is not likely to be considered or will need to be modified. This is where a screenwriter with a production background is a useful consultant. If I know I have to shoot in my friend's mom's house, I have limited assets. If I raised a couple thousand from Kickstarter, I may be able to rent some assets. My point, as a writer, I should keep in mind that locations shape the scope of the needed budget but I allow that there are creative solutions. I shouldn't prematurely limit the story. It may be a script I like and decide to shoot later.

It's okay to develop characters with certain actors as visualization templates, but don't make it too specific. While it's cool to have specific actors you'd like to act in your film, casting starts after the script is written and approved. If you asked me to play a lead for an unfinished script with an unknown production date, I'd be hesitant too. Most actors like to honor their commitments. Agreeing to be a lead is a big commitment. But let's be fair, paying gigs outweigh volunteer gigs. Volunteering to be in your unscheduled project means potential conflicts. No script, no shoot date, no money aren't enticing. The same is true for DP and crew who definitely get paid gigs. It's easier to get people on board when you have something in hand that they can get motivated about.

Again, bodies = money. Extra bodies on a set take up space. You need to feed people if nothing else. You want no more characters in a script than absolutely essential to tell the story. Don't pad a script with characters. There are no magic numbers; for every guideline, there are multiple exceptions. If a character appears only to utter one or two lines, really evaluate their relevance. Can those lines be moved to a supporting character? On union productions (some ULBs and most above that), a spoken line means a union actor which means money. Just bear in mind that bodies = money in the producer's mind.

So boiling all that down to answer your first question, write your script the way it is in your head. There's no reason to introduce plot holes to fix problems you create by prematurely cutting your scripts due the imagined lack of resources. There will be plenty of opportunity to hack up the script down the road. Use moderation in writing locations and characters. In the second pass after you've completed your first draft, be critical about your scenes. Does this need to be in the movie? If so, does it have to be in this location or could it be done elsewhere? The same with characters. Does this need to be said, and if so, by this character? I try to reuse existing locations and actors because (1) it saves money and (2) the audience is familiar with them. Sometimes that familiarity can be used to great visual and storytelling effect.

To your second question, don't worry about the actors. After you finish the script and hand it off for production, the available actors will come to a casting call. That's a production issue, not a writing issue. Don't put the cart before the horse. If you write it, they will audition.

As to the last, the script reviewer's role is to provide feedback for you to fix your script. Be sure to learn what kind of feedback you'll get before you shell out your money. Most will not hold your hand or give you detailed instruction. You pay more for that creative support akin to being co-writer or ghostwriter. They may point out a plot hole and suggest loosely how to address it but will stop short of fixing it for you.

From what you've said, it sounds like some of your problems originated by trying to force fit your original ideas into rather confining situations (limited locations and actors). Just a suggestion, but maybe write down the story as your originally thought of it, ignoring all the recent stuff and suggestions. Write it as a story treatment rather than a script. Taking a break to work on that may inspire you and give you new perspectives when you return to your current version. Good luck.
 
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