Indie Film Sound Idea

Hello
I have been doing a LOT of research for a while, trying to decide the best way to capture the sound for a feature film i am making. As i have spent such a long time now, i figured i would share the ideas i have had, to either help someone or get some feedback.

So the best way to capture sound on an indie film production is by a good boomed mic and boom operator.
But this means you have to find someone willing to commit to this role, then you have to schedule them into your filming schedule. This is why i have been hoping there is another option. One that would even let me conduct a shoot with just me and the talent.

Wireless lapel mic systems are expensive and not not particularly reliable. So here are some interesting products i found that i feel will provide an good alternative.

The Zoom H1 at £70 is actually cheaper than a good wireless transmitter, more reliable and better battery life. Then Rode PinMic, can be placed discretely outside cloths, (creating less chance of contact with cloths). Finally you use software like PluralEyes to sink up all the different recording with your cameras built in mic.

Anyway, this is what i will probably end up buying. I will film a short show the results here some time.
 
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The Zoom H1 at £70 is actually cheaper than a good wireless transmitter, more reliable and better battery life. Then Rode PinMic, can be placed discretely outside cloths, (creating less chance of contact with cloths).

So what do you do if you are ever in a situation where you
have three or four actors in a scene?
 
Then Rode PinMic, can be placed discretely outside cloths, (creating less chance of contact with cloths).

Uh huh.

1. So you can 100% guarantee 100% of the time that your talent are not going to make any moves that would reveal the lav to the camera.

2. Every time you change the angle of the shot you'll have to remember to move the lav to the "unseen" position. Oh, yeah, that will change the tonality of the voice, so you will have to compensate in audio post.

3. How are you going to monitor the sound? You will have no way of knowing if the PinMic becomes unplugged from the Zoom or the Zoom is accidentally turned off.

4. How are you going to connect the PinMic to the Zoom? The PinMic uses a MiCon connector, so you'll need an adapter.

5. How are you going to supply the phantom power to the PinMics?

6. And, as DirectoRic mentioned, if you'll need one rig for each speaking part. 4 PinMics @ 250 = $1,000; 4 H1s @100 = $400.
 
RE 1: no, but you can paint them the colour of a shirt or of a button. I might even add buttons to make it symmetric on both sides of the clothing, hide it as design. But when they really are obvious, i will use After Effects to paint them out.

You can see the boom(ed ;) ) mic on the first fight clubs DVDs a hilariously large number of times, and that didn't ruin my enjoyment of it.

2: thanks for this point, i wouldn't have thought of that. I will have to try and move them symmetrically on the person. They are omni-directional so have quite an even pick up pattern. I suppose i will have to alter them in post, (will EQ be enough?). By no means is this the easiest solution when it comes to the edit, but it means i can actually get better footage to edit. Quicker set up, more takes, more days filming.

3: Get a pair of earbud headphones for each recorder and have them in the pocket. get the talent to check regally. Obviously i will set up with a proper set of headphones. This will probably be the biggest concern though.

4: I thought they included adapters with the price. But i think your right and they don't with the pinmic, will have to get one. £14.
5: the zoom has plug in power. Its seems to be quite good.

6: £170 a rode mic, £70 zoom. At £70 its not much cheaper than a wireless transmitter. And you can probably get a transmitter mic combo for less than 250, but that would only be because the money isn't spent on the mic. Ok so this isn't cheap. But if you only need two, its cheeper than a good wireless system (and has the advantage of being portable) and is cheaper than getting a shot gun and another mic for indoors.

So its probably not viable if you need more than two. But personally i won't. there might be one or two scenes with more than two people, in those cases i will have to film parts separately and edit it as a back and forth conversation. Maybe this isn't an idea that is going to help many people then. It probably more of a last resort for me than anything.
 
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My two cents, you'll save yourself a bunch of money and set-up time by simply buying a good overhead mic and a boom. AND, if you ever want to shoot a scene with more than two people (which will inevitably happen), you'll wish you'd done this. The hassle, as Alcove said, of having to move mics every time you want to shoot from a different angle, and then having to check all your connections and levels again, is just not worth it. Plus, you said that you'll have your ACTORS regularly check their own levels in earbuds??? Forgive me, but 99% of actors won't have any idea what to look for. You'll have a million different interpretations of what "good audio" is, based on different actors whose opinions vary from take to take and setting to setting. That's exactly why we have sound technicians and sound editors, and whole divisions of a film crew devoted to getting premium sound quality. Because no-one else really knows what to look for.

Simple solution to all these complications, buy a good mic and someone to be in charge of it.
 
I meant headphones to check they are on still on, not to set the levels. I will get a boom mic on the occasions i can get a boom mic operator. Because that is the problem, you needing someone good to operate it. I can do a lot more filming this way.

I think the flexibility of the Lapel mics is the only way i am going to film a feature film in the time period i have. (And, i have not found a wireless system that would be better than the products i have proposed.) Though this system might not be much use after this specific film.
 
Youtube us a few minutes of tests!

Honestly, I'm all for proving any idea as pass/fail or conditional.
No solution will be a panacea for all situations.
Dja! For reallies?!
 
I know this isn't ideal, but i don't have the money to employ a boom operator, and i think this will end up sounding better than one of my mates holding a boom mic. Plus it allows a lot of flexibility, and i can film by myself.

Thanks for the comments, its been helpful pointing out these things.
 
Ya sure i will do a test, let you know how i goes down. There are quite a few youtube vids using these product already if your interested.

One thing i forgot to mention. Partly why i thinking of doing this is because i have seen people attach the Zoom recorders to a boom pole and use them like boom mics. Quite and intresting idea that could give another option.
 
I know this isn't ideal, but i don't have the money to employ a boom operator, and i think this will end up sounding better than one of my mates holding a boom mic.

I can pretty much guarantee this will sound worse than having a friend hold a boom mic. I realize you're trying to work within the limitations you have, but don't kid yourself on what the results will be. Hell, you'd probably get better audio setting up a decent mic on a stationary stand prior to each shot.
 
I can pretty much guarantee this will sound worse than having a friend hold a boom mic

You really reckon that? What makes you say that exactly. I really want to learn.
Is it just because a proper mic has a much deeper richer sound? But, these Lapels are still quite nice right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZs4fij5HM0
With a bit of EQ and De-Easser you can get what you want surly.

I was thinking about a stand but i just want to be as flexible as possible.
 
Having your talent occasionally put their earplugs in, to make sure that it's still on, is NOT monitoring your audio. You simply must monitor your audio live, while you're recording. The importance of this cannot be overstated.

If you truly can't get a friend to volunteer to boom, or you truly can't pay someone (I'm not buying it), you'd still be better off working the boom and camera simultaneously. You'd be severly limited in what you can shoot, because pretty much everything would have to be stationary, but I'd still do double-duty before trying this "self-sort-of-monitored" lapel mic setup you've described.
 
The lapels are passable for what they are, but being unable to monitor the audio is a complete deal breaker. Sure, you talk about having the talent check between takes, but that is completely unrealistic, and you won't have the time to do it yourself if you're setting up everything else. Even then, the sound checks between takes won't actually show what the actual takes sound like. You have waste an entire day shooting because your talent was moving the wrong way and rustling the mic. The only time I would trust that setup is if the talent was sitting completely still, and if that's the case a mic on a stand would work just as well.

EDIT: Cracker Funk beat me to a response.
 
Imagine shooting a video, in which your cameraperson set up the shot, pressed "record", and then walked away, and while your talent performed for each shot, nobody actually watched the camera to see if you were getting a good shot. In between takes, you looked to make sure that the camera was still on, but nobody ever watched the performance while recording. And you're going to do that for an entire shoot. Kinda ballsy, no?

That's the setup you've described, except with audio.
 
Nothing we say will matter, people; as far as most are concerned if you don't see it it's not important enough to worry about.
Then it's time for another episode of "Filmmaker Meets Brick Wall At Self-Induced High Rate Of Speed."

There is no more important of a lesson than having unusable audio and having no idea about it until editing. For that reason, I encourage all who want to give it a try to not monitor audio, run with scissors, touch a hot stoves, and never use a condom.

Good luck and don't forget to report back with your experiences. :cool:
 
Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply. It seems like i should reevaluate my plans.
Im not sure what to yet. Maybe buy a boom and mic for indoors. Then rewrite scenes to be set indoors. Get a stand and borrow a lapel on occasions. Because, there are scenes where i need a boom and camera operator (as i am "the talent" i was referring to) and i don't think i will always be able to get both.

Cracker Funk, thanks for the advice. Good analogy - though i actually do that regularly, lol (though i probably shouldn't). I think that you even saw and said you enjoyed a film that i made entirely like that and with lapels . That is why i have been so hard to convince, i feel like you could get some good results if you placed the lapels in a way that got no nose from clothes. But, i see your right, and getting live monitoring of everything would improve things greatly.
 
not monitor audio, run with scissors, touch a hot stoves, and never use a condom

Unless you are going to hire a proper sound guy its always going to be a risk.
So if condoms cost £300 a day (to hire), then i think even you would try and work out how to get away without using one.
 
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Cracker Funk, thanks for the advice. Good analogy - though i actually do that regularly, lol (though i probably shouldn't). I think that you even saw and said you enjoyed a film that i made entirely like that and with lapels . That is why i have been so hard to convince, i feel like you could get some good results if you placed the lapels in a way that got no nose from clothes. But, i see your right, and getting live monitoring of everything would improve things greatly.

Oh, ok, I see where you're coming from. I didn't recognize your name, right off the bat, because you're not too frequent of a regular on here. So I had to look you up, but yeah, I remember your stuff, especially "Threesome".

I still like your work; you're very creative. But a lot of times when I leave comments, I don't always comment on the obvious. Look, dude, I completely understand where you're coming from because I'm a very-low-budget kind of guy, myself. Even when I try my hardest, my work still has a relatively low production value, as far as lighting, sound, etc., are concerned. So, coming from the same place as you, I don't let low production values get in the way of me enjoying someone else's work. I say this only to point out, in as non-dickish way as possible, that though I do genuinely enjoy watching "Threesome", both the visuals and audio would benefit from A LOT of improvement.

Me? I don't want to be a cinematographer. I don't want to be an audio guy. So I'm not going to focus all my time on those kinds of things. But in order for guys like you and me to have our stories be seen, we do have to focus at least a little bit of energy on technical production. In my opinion, the advice you've been getting in here is definitely a bare-minimum. Boom-operator = Essential.

Cheers, and best of luck. I look forward to seeing what's next from you.
 
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