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Old 04-06-2014, 06:29 AM   #31
AudioPostExpert
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Originally Posted by NickClapper View Post
Hopefully we'll have some other sound guys onboard and maybe you could liaise with them and project manage parts if you don't have the time to work on it yourself?
Liasing and project managing the audio-post is pretty much an accurate description of the role of Supervising Sound Editor! At the moment we don't yet know which genre the film will be, it's settings/locations or it's duration, which means I can't even vaguely guess how much work/time will be required. Also, we don't yet know when post-production is going to start or how long picture editing will take. Not knowing when the audio post will start or how long it will take is obviously one of the main reasons I can't definitely commit at this stage, because whatever role/roles I take on will have to fit around (or possibly alongside) the professional engagements I have (or will have).

Once the script is complete, that will give me at least a vague indication of the amount of audio post time required and therefore a better idea of how feasible taking on one or more audio post roles will be.

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Old 04-06-2014, 07:37 AM   #32
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Oh, and I sh!t you not - the BTS, interviews, and DVD extras are more valuable than the film itself.
Certainly one of the main reasons I would want to do this is for the resource it could provide, which could be absolutely invaluable, particularly in regards to audio post production! BTS/extras rarely mention sound and even when they do, it's usually just a few sentences on the audio philosophy and a bit of footage of some ADR/Foley/SFX recording. This maybe vaguely interesting to the public and provide a very small amount of info for aspiring filmmakers but I've never seen anything which documents an actual audio-post process itself. A BTS video wouldn't be practical for this, some interviews would help but what I'd really like to see is maybe a sub-forum on IndieTalk for the film with a sub-sub-forum for audio post where discussions can be public. Open, uncensored discussions between the director and Sound Designer/Supervising Sound Editor and between the Supervising Sound Editor and the audio post team members, as well as the posting of things like Foley spotting lists, ADR Cue sheets, delivery and deliverables (to, from and between the audio post team) mix comments/corrections and of course some from each team member on their individual role, what their job entailed, what they did and why. Very few no/lo budget filmmakers have any idea what sound design or a professional audio post workflow even is, let alone how (or why) to implement it with a tiny budget!

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Old 04-06-2014, 08:49 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ChimpPhobiaFilms View Post
I mean everyone could bring together BTS footage, and one of us could edit it together (and I was saying I'd be very willing to).
This is a really good idea- if you fancied taking on the organising of that then I think that'd be great.

Hopefully it'd be as simple as people recording decent BTS on set, and interviews with themselves/their crew, and then assembling it into a doc. Would work brilliantly as a companion piece and would almost certainly be more successful than the actual film!

Certainly easier to market...

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As far as genres go: the cheapest SciFi to make are clone and time travel stories, the cheapest horror stories are ghost stories.
Thrillers, especially crime thrillers, also market well. Something like 'Snatch' might be good.
Action and adventure are gonna cost too much, but if you insist - gun fights are cheaper than fist fights.
For the love of God, don't waste time on a drama.
And don't waste non-existant budget on period pieces and super-set building.
Your evaluations are good but I do wonder whether they're slightly skewed by the fact that you're looking at profit-making films. I wonder, if you analysed shorts that have been successful at festivals and online, whether you'd get the same generic distinctions.

Contagion was actually my go-to reference when I started thinking about how this could be done. I am certainly leaning towards a tense thriller which utilises the unique global aspect of this project (hence why it'd be great to get as many different countries, accents and languages involved).

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Originally Posted by AudioPostExpert View Post
Once the script is complete, that will give me at least a vague indication of the amount of audio post time required and therefore a better idea of how feasible taking on one or more audio post roles will be.
Absolutely, that's very sensible. I am going to try and craft the script in a way that makes it as easy as possible for this to actually come to fruition, and that includes trying to make post a reasonable experience.

Making a BTS doc that properly captures the audio-post process would be great- I've certainly not seen anything that goes into detail about how/what filmmakers can do in order to facilitate the post work, nor one that goes into any great depth about what that process entails.
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Old 04-06-2014, 10:19 AM   #34
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I've certainly not seen anything that goes into detail about how/what filmmakers can do in order to facilitate the post work, nor one that goes into any great depth about what that process entails.
Exactly! Although, I'm not sure a BTS doc is the best or most practical format. For example, I don't own a decent video camera and even if I did, I work in a darkened room (with the film being projected) and seeing the actual detail of the precise tools I'm using and how I'm using them would be boring to watch and not applicable to most no budget indie filmmakers anyway. I believe it's the process which would be invaluable.

For example, as the sound designer I would want to see a near final draft of the script, well before the shot list is finalised. I would make comments/suggestions which will allow sound design to be employed more effectively come post-production. This is important for any kind of drama but especially so for thrillers/psychological thrillers where sound design is one of the most, if not the most powerful tool for creating tension, suspense, shape, pace, etc. The old sound saying; "audio-post starts with the script" is why well budgeted commercial features commonly employ the sound designer in the very early stages of pre-production, rather than in the early stages of post-production. It allows sound to be a collaborator rather than a sort of bolt on addition to an otherwise already finished film, which is more like slavery than collaboration! You'll be surprised/amazed at the difference this approach will make to the finished film! The best format for this kind of info/discussion would IMHO be a forum thread rather than a BTS doco.

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Old 04-06-2014, 10:30 AM   #35
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What about detailing the audio process though a commentary track?

In terms of length, if each unit is committing to a 1 or 2 day shoot and working at a typical ULB feature pace then we can expect 3-6 pages per day, faster if folks are going simplified on the lighting, slower of the pages are complex. A 7 page day is brutal even with the most basic of setups.

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Old 04-06-2014, 11:03 AM   #36
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What about detailing the audio process though a commentary track?
Possibly, but you're only going to get a snapshot this way, rather than the actual process. Using my example above; Nick could post his draft script in a new thread, I could make various suggestions in a reply to the post. Nick would then post a new script and readers of the thread will be able to see which suggestions he's implemented or modified and then implemented and which he's decided to ignore and how my suggestions (as sound designer) have influenced the shot list. To a reader of the thread, my suggestions which Nick decides not to use are just as potentially useful/important as those he does use because they might work better and/or stimulate an idea for the reader's own script/film. I think it would also be useful for readers to see the development of the other interactions between director and sound designer and between the sound designer/supervising sound editor and the rest of the audio post team, including the composer. While there are plenty of BTS docos and articles on the production process and even on specific crafts in the production process (including production sound recording) and for some other crafts such as picture editing. There's really nothing I know of for the process of sound, which is a particular shame as sound and it's power as a filmmaking tool is by far the weakest area of the vast majority of low/micro budget filmmakers.

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Old 04-06-2014, 11:26 AM   #37
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Sorry, not as mutually exclusive to the pre-pro online journal (forum thread if you will), but in addition to. Director, editor, DP commentaries are pretty common, and iirc there might be some out there from the sound perspective but none come to mind.

Basically gives the supervisor/designer perspective on the finished work, the process, point out the subtle items in the mix that would only be heard subconsciously otherwise, and so on. I think with both that and the thread/journal one would get a pretty good/detailed overview.

Interestingly, this could/should be done with other departments as well, if we have the resources. For example someone working with Nick to determine art design then working with the shooting units to keep them on a similar page. Also with the camera language and lighting.

Maybe that is a bridge to far?

Also, the sound commentary could demonstrate what other choices might have sounded like, and explain why one over the other.
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Old 04-06-2014, 01:06 PM   #38
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Also, my 2 on constructing a multinational film project is to consider a story like 'Contagion' where there are a lot of isolated characters in contact with the real world and each other via news media, phone, and internet.
Very little face to face among groups of characters - since that'd be cost prohibitively impractical.
Just an idea.
I haven't seen Contagion, but my first thought with a project like this was something like World War Z (the book, not the movie) which was a series of short stories presented as an 'oral history of the zombie war.'

Not that I'm suggesting a zombie movie by any means. But the book worked surprisingly well with such an unconventional narrative. There was technically the first person narrative that would introduce the stories (the reporter/editor of the book) but there's nothing to say that one unit couldn't film those fillers. Actuallynow that I'm writing this I kind of remember that idea being discussed in one of the old collab threads...
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Old 04-06-2014, 02:32 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by David.rhsc View Post
Sorry, not as mutually exclusive to the pre-pro online journal (forum thread if you will), but in addition to. Director, editor, DP commentaries are pretty common, and iirc there might be some out there from the sound perspective but none come to mind.

Interestingly, this could/should be done with other departments as well, if we have the resources.
As an addition to the forum info, that would work. As you say, this could work with other departments too. Those departments which aren't usually covered would be particularly valuable, although there might not be people here on indietalk with any professional experience in some of those crafts.

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Old 04-06-2014, 03:18 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by David.rhsc View Post
Sorry, not as mutually exclusive to the pre-pro online journal (forum thread if you will), but in addition to. Director, editor, DP commentaries are pretty common, and iirc there might be some out there from the sound perspective but none come to mind.

Basically gives the supervisor/designer perspective on the finished work, the process, point out the subtle items in the mix that would only be heard subconsciously otherwise, and so on. I think with both that and the thread/journal one would get a pretty good/detailed overview.

Interestingly, this could/should be done with other departments as well, if we have the resources. For example someone working with Nick to determine art design then working with the shooting units to keep them on a similar page. Also with the camera language and lighting.

Maybe that is a bridge to far?

Also, the sound commentary could demonstrate what other choices might have sounded like, and explain why one over the other.
Ravenous has the composer in the commentary along with the director
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:16 PM   #41
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As far as genres go: the cheapest SciFi to make are clone and time travel stories, the cheapest horror stories are ghost stories.
Thrillers, especially crime thrillers, also market well. Something like 'Snatch' might be good.
Action and adventure are gonna cost too much, but if you insist - gun fights are cheaper than fist fights.
For the love of God, don't waste time on a drama.
And don't waste non-existant budget on period pieces and super-set building.
Thriller sounds like the easiest of these to incorporate a range of filmmakers' styles. It could be cool to have the story include a a group of people from all over meeting on the internet planning "attacks" to get across some message. I imagine what Project Mayhem would have been into had Fight Club been written during this inflated social media era. Just a thought. Since the project will definitely have a hard time being cohesive maybe the story line could play off of that.
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Old 04-06-2014, 08:22 PM   #42
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One possible idea.. something like V for Vendetta with a mask or Darkman.
We could have the same character in every one of our episodes if we just had him in a mask, different actors could play him and then use one actor to redo all the dialogue
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:22 PM   #43
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I think instead of trying hide the fact that it is made in several countries with several crews and actors, we should play on the uniqueness of the situation. Not that intertwining stories haven't been done before. But trying to make it seem as if its the same character across a number of scenes takes that away (and potentially is hard to find the exact same mask/costume/body types of actors). Although a character that has several bodies/forms could be interesting (as long as we don't get bogged down in the sci-fi/fantasy side of that).
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:46 PM   #44
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Your evaluations are good but I do wonder whether they're slightly skewed by the fact that you're looking at profit-making films. I wonder, if you analysed shorts that have been successful at festivals and online, whether you'd get the same generic distinctions.
Slightly, my eye!
My evaluations are whole heartedly and unabashedly skewed at proft-making films!

No, I've not done any legit homework on either shorts or the festival circuit. (Which is truly unfortunate because I'm currently engaged in planning both: a short FOR the festival circuit!)

I know traditional one-off shorts make no direct return on investment - BUT - have the potential to showcase a director/producer/team's abilities leading to actual paying gigs.

And I know that even the rare air of major festival showings does not guarantee economically worthwhile distribution deals.

I think there's so much available content of "good enough" quality that serious distributors largely pass over film festivals of all calibers.

However, if we can all agree that all this collective time effort and energy is going to be a fiscal wash from the get go perhaps people such as myself can be free of the shackles of our ROI hopes.

Will we be doing this community project with confidence that we're doing this just to be doing it?
Confident enough to just give/sign away the rights to the final product for almost a song?

Or is there some occult belief the final film product + accouterments will have some meaningful value?


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Originally Posted by time2focus View Post
Thriller sounds like the easiest of these to incorporate a range of filmmakers' styles. It could be cool to have the story include a a group of people from all over meeting on the internet planning "attacks" to get across some message. I imagine what Project Mayhem would have been into had Fight Club been written during this inflated social media era. Just a thought. Since the project will definitely have a hard time being cohesive maybe the story line could play off of that.
You know... that's not a bad idea at all. It's actually pretty good.

I listen to public radio (NPR/PRI) almost exclusively and they're fairly keen on these stories about cyber security and hactivists like 'Annonymous.'

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(group)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacktivism

I've no idea who's in the current project screenwriter brain trust but this should be a viable techo-thriller option.

If some SciFi horror angle can be worked into it that'd be cherry gold.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:48 AM   #45
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If I may offer a suggestion...

Do a documentary from the future - "How People Survived After the Apocalypse" or something like that. This resolves the issue of different shooting styles from all over the world as some of it can become "found" footage. It also allows some of our financially challenged members to work within their gear, so the project doesn't become an "IndieTalk Elite" project.


Just my two ducats...

Peace,

Uncle Bob
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