Can a villain truly be nasty?

Villain's can definitely be nasty

There's a Korean film called "The Chaser" that's based on a true story where the guy is utterly insane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaser_(film)

It's just the mere thought that someone actually committed such crimes that makes is scary.

Aspiring Mogul said:

I seem to remember a thread where they said all viallains have to be likable in some way.

I don't know if that's true, but I have a story where the bad guy is, tentatively, not likable. He's cheats, steals, and murders, so everyone would cheer if and when he gets his just rewards.

I am thinking of the original Terminator, who was unlikable, but what're your thoughts on this?

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Obviously villains are nasty people - the 'likeability' of villains (for me anyway) amounts to "the devil gets all the best lines"... Plus many movie villains are written as psychopaths, for whom easy charm and likeability masking genuine evil comes easily.

Odd that you should choose the Terminator as an example of a villain - surely you'd want a human villain who has human responses rather than an emotionless cyborg? Unless your villain is an emotionless cyborg

I also fail to see how Terminator was unlikable - he got all the attention on screen, all the memorable stuff, all the goodies, without any significant negativity.

I believe that despisable character is created externally, by showcasing his victims, playing on viewers emotions etc. , and not just using factual deeds. The most astounding work I`ve seen recently was in "Breaking Bad", cause it also manipulated viewer`s sympathy back and forth.
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Breaking Bad was particularly memorable, as it seems most people came to see WW as a villain, but I never had that experience.

Villains can be as you say, nasty. You're right, the terminator in the first one was "nasty", as was the Emperor in Star Wars.

If you story calls for it, then do it. Try it. If it works, keep it. If it doesn't work, change it.

These days, characters tend to be more grey than black and white. The villain has good qualities and the hero has his faults.

The one rule I'd suggest you follow: Make the main characters interesting.

maz said:

Breaking Bad was particularly memorable, as it seems most people came to see WW as a villain, but I never had that experience.

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My wife saw him as one, and I couldn`t disagree, considering all the misery drugs bring etc., but I debated her, calling him a "failed" villain, cause after Fring and Mike were showcased in the later seasons, I sensed a parallel between them being "high class" criminals, while WW thought he could become one by just deciding to do so. So a whole gallery in there, if you count all the minor characters as well

Sweetie said:

... You're right, the terminator in the first one was "nasty", as was the Emperor in Star Wars....

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I am sorry for picking out your example, but just for the sake of the filmmaking argument

If anything, Terminator is Vader - getting all the screen, being the pinnacle of the movie. Emperor was insignificant and blend by design. They let him hurt Luke with "electricity" - OK its villain job, but I bet he would be "hated" triple time for torturing Vader or Wookie... You know what? Raise the "hate" bar tenfold, and give him to torture one of those little Ewok guys. So you see - same actions, and the results depend on who is who. Vader could do twice more harm than he did, and get away with it.
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Jame Gumb in Silence of the Lambs. Jigsaw in Saw.

There are villains that we “like” (to be fond of, to be attached to,
to hold in esteem), there are villains that we love to hate, there
are villains who are just misunderstood, there are villains who are
horrible. Do not mistake liking a character with being a likable
character.

The Terminator got all the attention on screen. But the character
is not likable. Do you believe Sarah Connor likes him? Was he
reprogrammed when he was sent back because he was too likable
in the first movie? Same with Darth Vader. He murders innocent
people, he slaughtered children, his in not likable in the sense that
he has qualities that put him in favorable regard.

Walter White wasn't the villain of “Breaking Bad”. He was the protagonist,
could even be called the hero, his intention was to provide for his
family. That he chose to break the law in that pursuit doesn't make
him the villain of the story.

While we all like the villains of the slasher franchises they are not
likable characters. We like to see how Freddy or Jason or Michael
are going to kill people, but they are not likable.

Who doesn't like Hannibal Lecter? But is the character someone to
be fond of? Starling has respect for him, but does she like him?

The meaning of the word matters. My favorite villain in Frank Booth.
Entirely unlikable. A truly nasty villain. Nothing redeemable about him.
He never makes any list of the best villains. Is it because he's too nasty?
Too unlikable? Vader is usually number one or two on lists, but is he
even a villain? He is a misunderstood boy who makes some poor decisions
and grows up to be a misguided old man who saves his son.

I look at the lists and see that there aren't any truly nasty villains on
them. There are many reasons for that including that people who vote
are unlikely to have a deep knowledge of movies, but it could be that
villains can't be truly nasty. Kahn rarely shows up on lists in the top 20
or 25. He is a noble villain who people like. Is he truly nasty?

My personal favorite truly nasty villains: Frank Booth, Tajomaru, Hans
Beckert, Phyllis Dietrichson, Wong Chi-hang, Max Cady, Henry Potter,
Tommy Udo and I must give a nod to Mrs. Iselin.

I suspect most of you don't know who most of them are – look 'em up.

So I think a villain can truly be nasty with no redeemable characteristics
but (as Sweetie says) make sure they are interesting.

Thanks everyone - so the villain doesn't have to be likable, though he should be interesting.

The one I have in mind is a murderer and rapist, but he has to be interesting enough to face off Captain Hero. I mean, no point being a hero is the villain is a whiner like prequel Darth Vader.

shortboy said:

Villain's can definitely be nasty

There's a Korean film called "The Chaser" that's based on a true story where the guy is utterly insane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaser_(film)

It's just the mere thought that someone actually committed such crimes that makes is scary.

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The Chaser was awesome, and one of the best thrillers ever made in my opinion.

As for nasty villains, Heath Ledger's Joker, and Anthony Hopkins's Lecter come to mind, so it can be done.

Why would a villain need to be likable? I'm not even sure I get the question. Unless you are saying the villain is your protagonist, like American Psycho or similar... where you can interject comedy or create a likable sociopath, but as the antagonist they can be straight up vile because you don't need the audience to care or invest.

indietalk said:

Why would a villain need to be likable? I'm not even sure I get the question. Unless you are saying the villain is your protagonist, like American Psycho or similar... where you can interject comedy or create a likable sociopath, but as the antagonist they can be straight up vile.

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It's quite boring having a straight up vile antagonist though, isn't it? That's why (IMO) late-era Breaking Bad fell off a cliff somewhat in terms of villains when they introduced the rather obvious Nazis. Wow, what's that you say? They're Nazis and they're bad?

There's movies with straight up villains too tho. Ones no one can empathize with whatsoever. Like Sleeping With The Enemy. Sorry I can't cite a better one right now but you get the idea. His question was do they HAVE to be. The answer is NO. Should they be is different. But they most definitely do not have to be.

It really depends on the subject matter. Violence against women is an example where they can be straight up villains.

Many movies with a "That guy's an asshole I hope he meets an ugly death soon" villain.

Schindler's List

sfoster said:

Schindler's List

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Good one with that. Hannibal Lector, though, was somewhat likable, though I can't quite definite how he is likable.

Walter White was a family man who eliminated worse bad guys. I liked how he handled the Nazis.

shortboy said:

It's just the mere thought that someone actually committed such crimes that makes is scary.

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This.

Nasty or not depends on the situation, there is no constant. When the villain hurts or kills, he is nasty. But if he is in love or helping friends, he is someone you might identify with.

Only Jeffrey Dahmer's victims knew that he was nasty. The people at his work or school probably had no idea. To go for years, undetected, would suggest such criminals can act like decent humans during their normal day to day activities. How many times do you hear the family and friends say that they had no idea? Hiding in plain sight.

One of my favorite villains is John Ryder (Rutger Hauer) in the original HITCHER. He actually seems to care about the kid, Jim Halsey, that he is terrorizing, killing all those around him.

Sometimes it comes down to which perspective you look from. KING KONG kills a lot of people, but perhaps it is the people who are the villainous species.

X-MEN's Magneto is a villain, but you completely understand his motivation, seeing what he lost in the holocaust. He could never trust government or average people, again.

So, why is it that your character is nasty?

Scoopicman said:

So, why is it that your character is nasty?

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Good post, Scoopicman. I want my character to be interesting and nasty but not likable. Basically, he is an Space Marine officer who, with those under him, kills his Marine commanding officer and runs off with stolen money. He and his subordinate thugs then go around pillaging and pirating.

My team of heroes are Marines, and they will go all out to get the bad guys, because the Marines have a credo that, if you kill an officer, they will do everything to get you. This is like Mutiny on the Bounty, except I want a difference where the mutineers are totally unlikable thugs.

Right, but what is the reason behind it? Is this a personal experience and you want to make sure they are not liked? Were you a marine and find it dishonorable so want to make sure they are disliked? Or is this total fiction, and this is a creative decision?

Basically you don't want Point Break or Heat (man I love Heat, great flick).

Also likable is different than being liked. You shouldn't write them as dry/dull/uninteresting unless you have a reason.