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Old 10-16-2018, 10:10 AM   #16
pedramyz
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Originally Posted by Panos View Post
You mean that you have watched Citizen Kane and you didn't like it, you wasn't totally curious every second of the movie to find out about his life, you haven't got the enormous surprise at the end of the movie.
Help me God...
How did this thread change to "citizen kane" criticism?

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Old 10-16-2018, 10:13 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Tune Peddler View Post
Along these same lines. I was in Target the other day, browsing the movies and heard a lady in her 30's tell her husband, who was looking at John Carpenter's Halloween, "That movie is atrocious".

Who has this opinion??? Maybe you don't like it, but atrocious? I was 80% angry and 20% sad she didn't get what an awesome movie she was putting down.
I know what you mean. But it's justifiable to hear it from common folks, everybody has a different taste, the sad thing happens when this same point of view is shared with professional writing teachers too!
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Benny Wollin View Post
Most of this thread looks like a "what is good art" discussion. Once you decide the answer to that question, many debates dissolve.

Now to what I feel like the OP was getting at: How and whom do we learn from? I thought I'd throw in my perspective from 20+ years of receiving music instruction, and 4 years making a living as a private composition/production and piano teacher: Once you've chosen a teacher, you have to trust them. You have to accept their opinions and approaches. Not mindlessly, of course. But you have to give their viewpoint a chance. Absorb it, live in their head, and once you've learned what you can from them, move on. You might totally end up disagreeing, or you might learn to view things in a completely new light. Either way, you'll get the most out of it by trying things their way. For a limited time.
I agree, that's why I felt I could criticize Truby, I understand where he's coming from. I explained the reason for his weak criticism on certain movies.
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Old 10-16-2018, 10:19 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by shortboy View Post
You know... there are a lot of movied that many film heads consider classics and masterpieces that I just don't care about or care to even watch.

Citizen Kane
Clockwork Orange
There Will Be Blood

just to name a few. I then realized that it's all subjective and I stopped caring about reviews (not saying that isn't needed) or relying on box office numbers. By the way, box office numbers doesn't = good movie.

Is there a standard structure? Sure, but I mean, if you feel connected to the movie then who are we to disagree with you?
That's exactly my point! Even teachers analyze a movie by their own personal taste. I think their criticism works like this : If they personally connected with a movie, they do their best to dig up the positive aspects of it and come up with a justifiable reason to why this movie worked. If they didn't personally connect with the movie, they try their best to dig up the flaws to justify it, where in truth all this matters are subjective, even to teachers or professionals.

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Old 10-16-2018, 10:22 AM   #20
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Put that in front of your average modern citizen and they will fall asleep to your worldwide "best movie ever made"
I don't know if I should be embarrassed by saying this or not, but with the exception of couple of classics, anything not post-modern makes me bored to death.
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Old 10-16-2018, 01:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Panos View Post
You mean that you have watched Citizen Kane and you didn't like it, you wasn't totally curious every second of the movie to find out about his life, you haven't got the enormous surprise at the end of the movie.
Help me God...
I would give it a 7 out of 10. Spoiler: The first thing when I saw Kane as a boy on that Sled was...the Sled = rosebud. My main problem with this movie is that it's about a man that grows so powerful that he forgets his declaration of principles when he was younger.

A interesting movie would show Citizen Kane corrosion of his character over time in his road to power. And that's where the movie fails in my opinion. I never get this feeling that Kane is serious about his principles or that he is a man of good morals. Its like..... 4 minutes into the movie later and he is dancing around with a bunch of hot chicks at at a fancy diner....That's not a slow fall from grace. He is corrupted from the core. A man that is driven by his own ego and addicted to power and attention. Its like like Jordan Belfort in the wolf of wall street.

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Old 10-16-2018, 04:42 PM   #22
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A corrupted, greed man, who is not a man of morals and he is not serious about his principals but who, the second before he died, the only thing he remembered, among all the wealth and power he was possessing, was a game he was playing when he was a young kid with his poor family! Do you start getting the magnificence of that movie?
As the title of the post says, stop overanalysing the movies... Masterpieces are usually simple.
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Old 10-16-2018, 08:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Panos View Post
You mean that you have watched Citizen Kane and you didn't like it, you wasn't totally curious every second of the movie to find out about his life, you haven't got the enormous surprise at the end of the movie.
Help me God...
yeah i enjoyed it but I am definitely not the aveage modern viewer....
i've seen every charlie chaplin film. most people haven't even seen one.
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Old 10-17-2018, 01:34 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Panos View Post
A corrupted, greed man, who is not a man of morals and he is not serious about his principals but who, the second before he died, the only thing he remembered, among all the wealth and power he was possessing, was a game he was playing when he was a young kid with his poor family!
I understand this the first time I saw it.... I just think that it's not the best movie ever, nor do I believe it's Orson Welles best.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:20 AM   #25
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yeah i enjoyed it but I am definitely not the aveage modern viewer....
i've seen every charlie chaplin film. most people haven't even seen one.
I don't believe the average modern viewer should be the criteria to judge whether a movie is good or not. The AMV maybe vote hangover as the best movie ever...
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Old 10-17-2018, 03:38 AM   #26
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I don't believe the average modern viewer should be the criteria to judge whether a movie is good or not. The AMV maybe vote hangover as the best movie ever...
It's interesting how things can change over time. Critics hated John Carpenter's The Thing when it came out. Now its revered as a Horror movie cult classic. Whos to Judge if a movie is the best movie ever? Perhaps we are better judges of that then our predecessors. Our teachers had to see a movie at the cinema or had to rent it on VHS. Not only do we have excess of all the movies ever made. We also have access to movies from other countries and other cultures. We have movies from Japan, Sweden Korea and we have access to a wild selection of manga Gamer and comic book culture. That's a big difference... who is the judge if something is good? Is the Shawshank Redemption the best movie ever? It certainly the highest rated movie on IMDB. Does that make it the best movie ever? I don't think so...... Perhaps we are the best Judge, "Beauty in things exists merely in the mind which contemplates them."

Everyone you meet knows something that you do not know. There opinion, and their perspective is something you can use to make your own view of the world grow and add that up to watch something in a different perspective.

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Old 10-17-2018, 05:59 AM   #27
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The key here is the word average not the word modern. Citizen Kane is voted even today one of the best movies ever. But not from average viewers. From top cinema experts, and there is a very good reason that they've become top. They know very well what people want to see, what the average viewer wants to see..! And here comes my question, how are you so sure that modern viewer won't like Citizen Kane? And I'm not talking about some kids that won't like it just because it is a very old black and white movie.
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Old 10-17-2018, 06:29 AM   #28
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The key here is the word average not the word modern. Citizen Kane is voted even today one of the best movies ever. But not from average viewers. From top cinema experts, and there is a very good reason that they've become top. They know very well what people want to see, what the average viewer wants to see..! And here comes my question, how are you so sure that modern viewer won't like Citizen Kane? And I'm not talking about some kids that won't like it just because it is a very old black and white movie.
I think cinema experts rate a movie on its quality and what the liked about it, not on what other people like in a movie. They've become top because the understand al the basics of movie making. Citizen Kane did a hole lot of things movies before that did not. It revolutionized hollywood movies. It became a cornerstone of movies after that. Cinema steals, it improves, cannibalises on other things and grows. The modern viewer (if something like that really exist) will watch citizen Kane and judge it among all of the many of the things seen before. And the twist in the end will be boring compared to the twist in the Sixth sense. The deep focus of the scenes will be nothing compared to that of David Fincher and the Story will not be as good as a Martin Scorsese.
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Old 10-17-2018, 08:55 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Panos View Post
The key here is the word average not the word modern. Citizen Kane is voted even today one of the best movies ever. But not from average viewers. From top cinema experts, and there is a very good reason that they've become top. They know very well what people want to see, what the average viewer wants to see..! And here comes my question, how are you so sure that modern viewer won't like Citizen Kane? And I'm not talking about some kids that won't like it just because it is a very old black and white movie.
I think if you want to judge a movie well you should put bias aside. If everything was perfect with these classic masterpieces, they wouldn't have changed over the past 100 years. We would still watch slow paced black and white movies in theaters. Cinema has evolved, tastes have evolved too. Sure these so called masterpieces were masterpieces in their own time. But in no way can you compare these movies with post-modern masterpieces,apples and oranges really. "If everything was perfect, nothing would have changed".
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:30 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Feutus Lapdance View Post
...cinema experts rate a movie on its quality and what the liked about it, not on what other people like in a movie. They've become top because the understand al the basics of movie making.
The basics of what? The basics of what makes a movie good. Good for who? For themselves but not for usual viewers? I don't think that this is their mindset.

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Originally Posted by Feutus Lapdance View Post
Citizen Kane did a hole lot of things movies before that did not. It revolutionized hollywood movies. It became a cornerstone of movies after that. Cinema steals, it improves, cannibalises on other things and grows. The modern viewer (if something like that really exist) will watch citizen Kane and judge it among all of the many of the things seen before. And the twist in the end will be boring compared to the twist in the Sixth sense. The deep focus of the scenes will be nothing compared to that of David Fincher and the Story will not be as good as a Martin Scorsese.
The fact that modern viewer will feel nothing for the surprise at the end of CK because they have already felt much more about bigger surprises in modern movies doesn't indicate anything important. It's like saying that because modern people have the Tesla car, the discovery of the wheel wasn't one of the biggest inventions ever!

Also, maybe we agree that sixth sense had a bigger surprise at the end but I doubt that it was overall better movie. (SPOILER STOP READING: ) I will never forget how the hell Malcolm could see the door handle, but not 10cm below, the desk that was blocking the door... Oh, right, M. Night throws the lifesaving line: "they see only what the want"... yeah ok... And not only that. Actually the whole movie is in the air. Countless imperfections like that exist in almost every movie.

When I saw Citizen Kane it surprised me the fact that I never got bored. There was always a magical anticipation to see what will happen next. I think CK is a way more solid movie than the "better" modern movies.
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