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Audio settings for Blu ray / DVD

Hey everybody,

The post learning curve continues....

Authoring Blu Ray and DVD's from Encore.

I have an Lt/Rt mix and a 5.1 mix.

Anyone have any idea how to properly get these files into Encore for playable options on the DVD/Blu Ray?

I'm exporting the h.264 blu ray from Premiere, but I'm not clear what to do with the audio. From dolby digital to PCM it seems like it's giving me a whole array of options when choosing DD. Or do I drop in the original Lt/Rt mix and 5.1 into Encore and do it through that?

I'm continuing to read up on it, but if anyone has any knowledge/experience with this please give me a holler!

Thanks..
 
I have an Lt/Rt mix and a 5.1 mix.

From dolby digital to PCM it seems like it's giving me a whole array of options when choosing DD. Or do I drop in the original Lt/Rt mix and 5.1 into Encore and do it through that?

If you have an LtRt mix, I take it you already have a DD mix? If that's the case, why do you want to transcode back to PCM and recode to DD again, why not just put the DD mix straight onto your DVD? Remember, DD is a very lossy audio codec, you really want to avoid any transcoding. Of course, it depends on what sort of DD mix you have already, was it created to theatrical specs or TV broadcast specs? If it's the latter, although it's not ideal, you can probably get away with just sticking the DD mix you already have straight onto your DVD.

G
 
Hey G,

All I have is the wav Lt/Rt and 5.1 discretes. I don't have a DD transcode from that (correct me if I'm wrong there.) So talking to the mixer he said I have to transcode to ac3 for authoring. Which seems possible using Media Encoder or Encore, or even Compressor. But there are numerous settings that I wasn't sure about.. though now they're becoming more clear.

For example, I first did not know that when bringing the WAV Lt/Rt into Premiere it throws them to "0" for the pan, and I have to move them to left and right. There's also options for dialogue normalization which I found I need to keep to -31db. Also Dynamic Range Control, and some Audio Production Info set to -105db I believe (have to go back and look at it). Most of these I didn't touch, as I want my audio to sound exactly what the mixer and I achieved for the discrete files he gave me. So this I'm a little unclear about how I should place these settings to achieve that and keep the most quality I can from the WAV discretes as I create the ac3.

For the 5.1 I found Compressor will make me a 5.1 ac3 for free. Where Adobe wanted to use Surcode and that'll cost me quite a bit more. So if compressor will give me the 5.1 then I'll definitely go with that and just take those ac3 files and drop them into Encore or whatever program I end up using to author the blu ray and DVD.

I think what was throwing me off the most was the options for creating the ac3's and making sure I don't alter anything but keep the best quality from the WAVs.
 
OK. You want to ignore the LtRt, don't touch it or include it in anything else! It has already been encoded and cannot easily be un-encoded. Just use you're 6 discrete wavs.

Compressor is OK for creating your AC3, there are quite a few settings and some of them can have quite a dramatic effect on how the audio is played back. Dialogue Normalisation can be a tricky setting, setting a value of -31 effectively means; "ignore the Dialogue Normalisation setting". How TVs/DVD players/AV Receivers respond to a setting of -31 varies across makes and models; some switch dialogue normalisation off, others ignore a setting of -31 altogether and leave the the Dialogue Normalisation set to whatever DD stream was played previously. For this reason, it is usually unwise to use a setting of -31 and you won't find any commercial DVDs set to -31. Unfortunately, unless you have certain tools to measure your mix or your previous re-recording mixer provided you with an Integrated Loudness value for the mix, there is no way to know what Dialogue Normalisation setting is appropriate. DRC (Dynamic Range Control) would most commonly be set to "Film Light" although this can vary and is also dependent on the Dialogue Normalisation setting. Getting the combination right can be tricky for some mixes and the result of getting it wrong is in effect the same as AGC on a camera, not nice!

G
 
OK. You want to ignore the LtRt, don't touch it or include it in anything else! It has already been encoded and cannot easily be un-encoded. Just use you're 6 discrete wavs.G

So what's the LtRt for then? What situation would I use it? So essentially it's already been compressed and if I transcode to ac3 I'll be losing further quality? Or is there another reason I shouldn't be using it for DVD and Blu Ray? What about exporting a Quicktime for the web (Vimeo), I assume that's a situation I'd be using the LtRt?


Dialogue Normalisation can be a tricky setting, setting a value of -31 effectively means; "ignore the Dialogue Normalisation setting". How TVs/DVD players/AV Receivers respond to a setting of -31 varies across makes and models; some switch dialogue normalisation off, others ignore a setting of -31 altogether and leave the the Dialogue Normalisation set to whatever DD stream was played previously. For this reason, it is usually unwise to use a setting of -31 and you won't find any commercial DVDs set to -31

Now I'm confused because everything I've read and been told up to this point says to set it at -31!! Ahh..

Unfortunately, unless you have certain tools to measure your mix or your previous re-recording mixer provided you with an Integrated Loudness value for the mix, there is no way to know what Dialogue Normalisation setting is appropriate.

Couldn't I just bring the ac3 back into Premiere or Audition and look at the levels to see if they match up to the original WAV mix files?

DRC (Dynamic Range Control) would most commonly be set to "Film Light" although this can vary and is also dependent on the Dialogue Normalisation setting

I was looking into this last night and from what I gathered if it's intended for cinema people were saying to go with Standard Film Compression, and if not then just leave it off.

Thanks for the help.
 
I guess the 5.1 for a DCP won't matter because they'll be handling this. The discrete WAV files to the DCP. So really I think I'm living in the world of creating the DVD, Blu Ray and online copy. Just FYI for whoever wants to know.. haha.
 
So what's the LtRt for then? What situation would I use it? So essentially it's already been compressed and if I transcode to ac3 I'll be losing further quality? Or is there another reason I shouldn't be using it for DVD and Blu Ray? What about exporting a Quicktime for the web (Vimeo), I assume that's a situation I'd be using the LtRt?

LtRt (Left total, Right total) is a pretty ancient analogue type mix. Originally it encoded 4 channels of audio (LCRS) to 2 audio channels, allowing a multi-channel mix (with mono surround) to be printed to the two optical tracks available on 35mm film. This encoding is not the same as with DD, where the original 6 audio channels can be bit perfectly un-encoded from the DD datastream, it's more like an actual mixing of the audio. DD is therefore described as a discrete format whereas LtRt is a matrixed format. The disadvantage of a matrixed format is that it's not straight forward to break it apart back into it's constituent channels and it can't be re-mixed without potentially serious side-effects. The advantage of this matrixed format is that it will play as a standard stereo mix on any stereo system (TV, computers, smartphones, music systems, etc.), so use your LtRt wherever you would use any standard stereo mix.

Now I'm confused because everything I've read and been told up to this point says to set it at -31!! Ahh..

I'm not sure who's telling you this but it's not correct. There is no actual Dialogue Normalisation specification for DVD as there is with TV (-24 in North America, -23 in Europe) so in theory you can set whatever you like but the convention for professional/commercial DVDs is -27. However, -27 would only be appropriate for mixes made for that specification. You wouldn't for example take a TV mix (-24) and just change the Dial Norm setting to -27 for DVD, you would actually change the mix to match the Dial Norm setting.

Couldn't I just bring the ac3 back into Premiere or Audition and look at the levels to see if they match up to the original WAV mix files?

Dial Norm and Integrated Loudness levels are not directly related to dBFS levels (which are what your NLE measures/indicates). So your suggestion is pointless. You need the correct tools, Dolby Media Meter for example or an Integrated Loudness meter.

I was looking into this last night and from what I gathered if it's intended for cinema people were saying to go with Standard Film Compression, and if not then just leave it off.

Again, I don't know who these "people" are but they don't know what they are talking about! AC3 is the DD format for consumer distribution (HDTV, DVD, etc.), the theatrical version of DD does not even include DRC metadata, so I'd like to see them try and "go with Standard Film Compression"! I'm not sure if it's even possible to leave DRC off when creating an AC3, I think you have to select something to get a valid AC3 file. I'm not certain of this though. Your DRC will be affected by the dial norm setting so there's no point in suggesting a DRC setting without knowing your mix. Film Light is the most commonly used, Film Standard is more commonly used to help turn a theatrical mix into a TV mix and as you don't have a theatrical mix, it's unlikely that Film Standard would be an appropriate setting (although it might be).

I guess the 5.1 for a DCP won't matter because they'll be handling this. The discrete WAV files to the DCP. So really I think I'm living in the world of creating the DVD, Blu Ray and online copy.

DCP does not support Dolby Digital, so there is no "handling", it's just individual wav files. DD is the only way of printing a 5.1 mix to 35mm film (incidentally it's actually printed on the little bits of film between the sprocket holes!) but as 35mm is dying as a distribution format DD is almost dead too (as a theatrical format). It mainly only lives on in the consumer AC3 version.

G
 
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Okay hopefully I have this somewhat straight now and I can have a plan of attack.

-So for Lt/Rt if I want stereo I use it. So if I want to make a blu ray or DVD for submission purposes to film festivals, and I'm not sure if they'll have a 5.1 surround set up or not, then I would use my Lt/Rt transcoded to an ac3 file to author the disc.

-Or, is it still better to use an 5.1 ac3 file for the disc even though I'm not sure what they'll be watching it on. Or will that sound like garbage?

-Now for final delivery of a blu ray or DVD (say to cast and crew) I'd do the same. Either give it to them with a Lt/Rt (stereo) option, or 5.1 surround option. Both being ac3 files correct?

-Now for the ac3 settings, I'm going to use Compressor which has a 5.1 surround option on it where I assign each discrete file to the correct L, R, C, etc. As for the other options when creating ac3s, I spoke to the mixer and he said to set to -31, because -27 will turn up the mix 4 decibels. Right or wrong? I asked him about LKFS readings, etc. and he mentioned for theatrical, just need to calibrate the room to 85db, which he did. If he is wrong about this, I'm still caught in the middle as I just need to do the best I can with what info I have. So if you disagree, in your opinion what would be the best plan of attack since I don't have the correct tools?

For the other array of options including Film Standard or Film Light, I'll probably go with Film Light then... and see how it sounds.

For the Audio Production Information, it's default is 105 db SPL peak mixing level. I should set that to 85db correct?

For the DCP that's perfect then.. just going off the individual wav files.

Thanks for the help!
 
-So for Lt/Rt if I want stereo I use it. So if I want to make a blu ray or DVD for submission purposes to film festivals, and I'm not sure if they'll have a 5.1 surround set up or not, then I would use my Lt/Rt transcoded to an ac3 file to author the disc.

No! Again, don't transcode the LtRt to anything, just use it as you would a standard wav stereo file with the exception of transcoding it! As far as DD is concerned, they don't need to have a 5.1 system setup. All HDTVs, DVD players and AV Receivers have a Dolby decoder chip inside, if you have not specified that you want a direct digital output on the TV/DVD player AND set the AV Receiver to 5.1 the TV/DVD player will assume a stereo system and automatically downmix the 5.1 to stereo. Most laptops and computers have a similar software based downmix feature but I can't guarantee that every computer will. In other words, If you've ever watched HDTV without a 5.1 system, an automatic stereo downmix is what you've heard as DD is the only way to include audio in HDTV. Now whether the auto-stereo downmix from your 5.1 DD sounds better than your LtRt, you'd have to check.

Either give it to them with a Lt/Rt (stereo) option, or 5.1 surround option. Both being ac3 files correct?

Nope!!

I asked him about LKFS readings, etc. and he mentioned for theatrical, just need to calibrate the room to 85db, which he did.

That's perfect! Providing of course that he actually has a cinema sized mix room, roughly 18,000 cubic feet or more. If he doesn't, if he just has say a really large living room sized mix room (or smaller), then he's screwed up big time! Common mistake, a little knowledge is dangerous! They read the Dolby specs (which say 85dBSPLC) and calibrate their room to it without understanding the vital importance of room size. The correct calibration for a smaller than cinema sized room could be anyhere from 82dB to 66dB. For this reason, the chances are very slim that your mix is at the correct level for cinema playback, it will probably be too quiet.

If he is wrong about this, I'm still caught in the middle as I just need to do the best I can with what info I have. So if you disagree, in your opinion what would be the best plan of attack since I don't have the correct tools?

He is obviously wrong, providing of course he doesn't actually have a cinema sized room! To be honest, without analysing the mix there's no way for me to know, your guess is going to be as good as mine.

As for the other options when creating ac3s, I spoke to the mixer and he said to set to -31, because -27 will turn up the mix 4 decibels. Right or wrong?

He's right that -27 will turn the mix up by 4dB compared to the DVD player/AV Receiver having it's Dial Norm switched off. As I said though, there's no way to know if -31 will actually turn the dial norm off on a particular DVD player/AV Receiver. If an AV Receiver does not respond to -31 and was last tuned to say a HDTV signal then it will be set to -24 (-23 in Europe), which is 7 or 8dB louder than off and your mixer's information would be quite wrong. Again, a little knowledge is dangerous! As we don't (in all likelihood) have any idea what level your mix is at, I would use -27, burn a DVD off, run it on your TV and see what happens. If it's really quiet (most likely) or really loud change the dial norm setting by 2 or 3dB, burn another DVD and try again. You won't get an accurate result this way but at least it will be very roughly ball park and listenable.

For the other array of options including Film Standard or Film Light, I'll probably go with Film Light then... and see how it sounds.

I'd still start with film light, although film standard is little more likely than I previously thought in light of the new info.

For the Audio Production Information, it's default is 105 db SPL peak mixing level. I should set that to 85db correct?

No, that's incorrect. The 85dB calibration is at -20dBFS, so peak would indeed be 105dB. Bare in mind, the "Audio Production Information" metadata is not a setting (unlike DRC or dial norm), it's just info and has no influence on playback. It's much the same as say adding the artists name to a music MP3's metadata.

For the DCP that's perfect then.. just going off the individual wav files.

Well, according to what you've stated your mixer has told you, it probably won't be perfect and might even be seriously imperfect, there's no way to know unfortunately. But as far as what you've got to do is concerned; yes, just use your individual wav files.

Thanks for the help!

I'm not sure you'll still be thanking me after reading what I've written above! If there's anyway you can beg or cajole a test screening of your DCP in a cinema (preferably the festival cinema but any cinema is better than nothing) before your actual screening, I very strongly recommend that course of action. Better still, pony up some cash and see if you can hire an actual theatrical dub stage for a quick run through. It's the only way of knowing for sure if your mix is ball park correct, inaudible or deafening.

G
 
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I'm pretty optimistic about my mix. As the guys who did it have been around a while so I don't believe I'll have any major audio issues with it. That being said it's definitely possible but I'll find out!

As for the other settings I'll run some tests and see which one's sound the best.

Thanks again.
 
I'm pretty optimistic about my mix. As the guys who did it have been around a while so I don't believe I'll have any major audio issues with it.

From what you've said, I'm not quite so optimistic but of course it's up to you and how much you're willing to risk your theatrical screening. I'd be interested to know how it turns out though. Good luck!

G
 
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