Sad truth of our legacy

It's difficult now to believe anything will ever supplant movies. It's difficult to imagine what could supplant movies.

I think you're right, Cheese. Games serve another purpose than movies do.

But who knows? There could be something else coming down the pike. Like APE said, it's about technology. How many people knew film was coming or how much power it would have over so many of us for a century plus now?

Is there another technological development in storytelling around the corner which could push aside cinema as we know it? Seems highly unlikely. But it's a what-if question. It is at the very least a possibility. It has precedents, after all. Yes, while there have been long, long stretches in which things did not change much, change has been the rule, by in large, in human history. That is, humans keep coming up with new technologies, especially lately, especially over the last century or more. That helps to make them an interesting species.

I suppose there's another possibility. Perhaps nothing will supplant or eclipse movies. But maybe it's possible, however unlikely it seems, that people will lose interest in them. Or maybe it's more like they could lose patience with them. Even now, there are so many more distractions. Think of the diminishing attention span some have been complaining and warning about for...must be decades now.

And this is highly speculative, of course. But let's face it, a Borg-like future is a real possibility. Do the Borg watch or give a hoot about movies? I don't think so. So, when, if, we ever become like the Borg, I suppose Charlie Chaplin will fail to hold any significance for any"one" anymore. :(
 
A "borg like" future is more than just a possibility, it's an inevitability. We will have a primitive form of telepathy within the next hundred years. Things will advance from there.

But they really dramatized things. Just because we can interface with each other in a new and exciting way, it doesn't mean that we lose our individuality.

Audio books are generally 150 words per minute, for comfortable listening. But comfortable reading is even faster, at 250 to 300 words per minute. Lets say comfortable telepathy is at 900 words per minute in capacity to understand. Or if you want to be dramatic, 9000.

I write about this and a lot more in my time traveling sci fi fantasy
 
Ohhhh, do share? You write about it? You write what? IT minds would like to know. :)

Oh just a script that is still in it's infancy. It'll take money though so it's still at least 2 years away. starts off with a big explosion, astronauts, etc. first I have to get my super hero action comedy into a festival and win some awards. then i pitch them my sci fi
 
Can I just point out the huge community of indie game designers making things on shoestring budgets? People who actually take what they make as a serious art form?

Oh yeah, I'm definitely aware of some interesting things happening in the video game medium, I just think that it will grow even more and become more significant (I mean film was always art but it wasn't until many years later until we had auteurist critics show how artistic commercial cinema was and then later academic study of film, I think the same will happen with video games as they begin to be taken more seriously).
 
It's difficult now to believe anything will ever supplant movies. ... How many people knew film was coming or how much power it would have over so many of us for a century plus now?

Yet in a sense, film already no longer exists! The majority of us no longer watch or are even able to watch film, in effect we watch a hard disk or more precisely, digital data streamed from a hard disk. We still call them films, as a sort of legacy term, even though it's likely the "film" we're watching has never actually been anywhere near physical film.

Take an average film-goer from 1920 to a screening of The Hobbit in 3D HFR/Dolby Atmos and they would probably describe it as some kind of futuristic experience rather than as "watching a film". The chances are that this evolution will continue and that we'll still be watching "films" for many decades to come and still calling them "films", even if they are barely recognisable from what we consider to be a "film" today. As the advances in film have almost exclusively been to enhance the experience of storytelling, there is a chance that "film" may evolve into some sort of individual VR type experience which no longer needs (or financially justifies) the existence of cinemas ... but who knows?!

G
 
Yet in a sense, film already no longer exists! The majority of us no longer watch or are even able to watch film, in effect we watch a hard disk or more precisely, digital data streamed from a hard disk. We still call them films, as a sort of legacy term, even though it's likely the "film" we're watching has never actually been anywhere near physical film.

Yeah but the thing is that when most of us say "film" we are referring to a motion picture or a movie, not necessarily film stock. I think that motion pictures will live on among cinephiles and critics, but they will play a lesser role within popular culture and mainstream entertainment than they did in the 20th century. But just like how most painting, sculpture, classical music, older popular music, fine literature, etc. are not appreciated by mainstream audiences yet are still preserved and enjoyed by aficionados of those mediums, motion pictures will survive in the same way (this can be observed in the increase of museums dedicated to the moving image, projects to restore and preserve films, an increase in cinephilia thanks to home video, more arthouse/repertory theaters, and websites dedicated solely to the appreciation of the art of the motion picture). At the same time, we're seeing the motion picture losing dominance in popular culture with the rise of more sophisticated television programs which are replacing the motion picture as the dominant form of moving image-based storytelling, we're also seeing video games that appeal to a much larger market and are becoming the dominant form of popular entertainment, and then there's internet videos which has the ability to reach a much larger audience. I don't lament the loss of popularity of the motion picture since it will always survive for an audience that cares about the medium, and I think it will lead to some interesting developments in new mediums that while they don't interest me personally, have a lot of potential.
 
A closer comparison to this discussion was on Star Trek Voyager when Seven of Nine thought she was going to die when her Borg cortical node was failing and Janeway and the crew were looking for a way to save her life.

Seven was hiding from the doctor in engineering with Lt. Torres and they talked about how the Klingons and Borg believe what happens when someone dies. With so many beliefs from different species on Voyager, no one could be certain what will happen. Lt. Torres made a valid point to give Seven some peace of mind. "You have made an impression on the lives of everyone on this ship. If you do die, you will live on in our memories. We will not forget you. You have become too much of a part of our lives to forget the times we had together."

So, if we can't make something to change the world, do something that the people around you will remember you for.
 
Yeah but the thing is that when most of us say "film" we are referring to a motion picture or a movie, not necessarily film stock.

That's my point! At one time the two were, as far as common usage was concerned, synonymous. As you state, that's no longer the case.

... just like how most painting, sculpture, classical music, older popular music, fine literature, etc. are not appreciated by mainstream audiences yet are still preserved and enjoyed by aficionados of those mediums, motion pictures will survive in the same way

That's patently not true! The great masterpiece paintings and sculptures are not preserved and enjoyed by aficionados, they are largely owned by state governments and/or national institutions because of their cultural and historical international importance and many of these works are literally priceless. Older popular music is also not preserved and enjoyed by aficionados, it's owned by large multinational corporations and these back catalogues are worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. And, classical music is still performed today by tens of thousands of professional classical musicians and is listened to by many tens of millions daily. These "old" arts may not be "mainstream" as you describe them but they still have mass recognition, mass interest and mass commercial appeal. This is not true of film however, where very old films are generally only enjoyed by a relatively tiny number of aficionados and there are hardly any cinemas which could survive commercially just from screening very old films. I believe you are letting your personal love of early film cloud your judgement and are missing the implications of film being based on technology and therefore becoming far more outdated than these other arts you have used for comparison.

I also don't agree with the implication that films are losing popularity, there are more cinema screens in the world today than ever before and more people going to the cinema.

G
 
Yeah, I don't think films are losing popularity at all. In fact, I think they are the single most popular thing in our culture these days, even surpassing music.
 
That's my point! At one time the two were, as far as common usage was concerned, synonymous. As you state, that's no longer the case.



That's patently not true! The great masterpiece paintings and sculptures are not preserved and enjoyed by aficionados, they are largely owned by state governments and/or national institutions because of their cultural and historical international importance and many of these works are literally priceless. Older popular music is also not preserved and enjoyed by aficionados, it's owned by large multinational corporations and these back catalogues are worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. And, classical music is still performed today by tens of thousands of professional classical musicians and is listened to by many tens of millions daily. These "old" arts may not be "mainstream" as you describe them but they still have mass recognition, mass interest and mass commercial appeal. This is not true of film however, where very old films are generally only enjoyed by a relatively tiny number of aficionados and there are hardly any cinemas which could survive commercially just from screening very old films. I believe you are letting your personal love of early film cloud your judgement and are missing the implications of film being based on technology and therefore becoming far more outdated than these other arts you have used for comparison.

I also don't agree with the implication that films are losing popularity, there are more cinema screens in the world today than ever before and more people going to the cinema.

G

Well when I said preserved, I didn't literally mean individual aficionados nor did I mean literal preservation, part of "preserving" a work to me is to show how the work is continually relevant (this is done by critics, lovers of the medium, and artists, all of whom I'd categorize as "aficionados.") And just because the aficionados work in organizations it doesn't mean that they aren't aficionados working to preserve an art form they personally love.

And about people that "enjoy" these older art forms (fine literature, classical music, fine art, older popular music, etc.), if it isn't aficionados then who is enjoying them? Certainly not most mainstream audiences. If aficionados aren't the ones that enjoy these art forms, then tell me who does.

The fact is that classical music is not a popular art, neither is older cinema (or arthouse cinema), nor are the fine arts. The reason fine literature, classical music, and fine art are more recognized is because they have had a much longer history with many more developments and are even commonly taught in schools, they are also mediums that require less money and yes, technology to produce so there are a lot more artists within these mediums as well as aficionados.

I think I gave sufficient evidence of how cinema is going to live on as there are more arthouse/repertory cinemas now, there are much more home video releases of arthouse and classic films, there are more museums dedicated to motion pictures, there is more preservation/restoration work, and much more evidence showing how people value cinema. Perhaps since you are so concerned about the development of technology in cinema (which is only ONE aspect of cinema), you are unable to see why people appreciate older films.

In any case, I already said that I was fine with cinema not being the most popular art form. If you want to believe that it isn't becoming a more valued art form that will serve a smaller audience (in the same way as older art forms) then so be it, I may very well be wrong but I see evidence that points to classic cinema and arthouse cinema heading in that direction.

I didn't mean to say that cinema was losing its popularity, only its role as the dominant form of entertainment (which I do feel is going more in the direction of internet media and video games).
 
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Eventually it will get to the point were CG looks and sounds exactly like real actors. Hell you could take a movie and swap out the main characters for whoever are your favorite people to watch.. or watch a movie with yourself in the main role instead. now if all that technology is there.. it's a very small step to make it interactive. Perhaps video did not kill the radio star, but it sure put a hurting on him.
Interesting you say that. I saw The Cogress the other week which dealt with that very subject (though it went beyond being just about movies). Her also deals tangentially with related ideas.
 
The Congress? (I presume you have seen/know about Her)

It is. It's not amazing, but it deals with an interesting topic in a surprisingly funny way at times. It's pretty pretentious and self-serving at times, but it's enjoyable and interesting enough topic to remain engaging.

Trailer (it reveals a bit much for my liking, but gives a pretty good idea of the concept)
 
the other way of looking at it is to embrace the mortality of art. We convince ourselves that our art is immortal; long after we are gone people will be able to see what we thought or felt. But that's not true. How much of the intense passionate art has been overlooked in favor of the pop artist of the day. 100 years from now, are people going to remember any of the art-rock bands, or are they going to see Taylor Swift, or whatever other pop artist overwhelms the others? How much music was lost in the wake of Mozart? Van Gogh is rightfully remembered; but how many artists experimented with those ideas generations before him? And how many years before man is gone and he is forgotten?

Admittedly, I am someone who took Ozymandias way too much to heart when I was young, but there's something to be said for what is in the moment that it is. The eternal truth is not the exact image or sound being reproduced, but the idea and the feeling, and what that inspires in another, and how they use that to influence another, and so on. Art is fragile and in the moment; not that it needs to be improvised, or that the moment can last hundreds of years. But in the grand scheme of things, that's barely a drop in the ocean. I don't mean this in a bleak or pessimistic way, but rather what we do and how we strive for those around us is a much more tangible result than any delusions of immortality.
 
Great insight, APE.

So I think you've basically pointed out that the transition from analogue to digital was a pretty significant change. And yet, being humans, wanting continuity for psychological reasons, or whatever, we have almost seamlessly adopted digital has though nothing much has been altered.

(Not that it hasn't been/isn't a disruptive technology.)

And why not? For the audience, there's hardly any difference whether the acquisition method was analogue or digital, or whether they're watching actual film being projected onto the big screen, or a digital image.

And yet the business of movie making and movie enjoying marches on...with largely the same terminology and the rest.

I like that.

And come to think of it, is the transition from analogue to digital in some ways actually less stark or game-changing than moving from silent films to talkies, for example? We may point out that such-and-such film was shot on film and such-and-such and such film was captured digitally. But no one really speaks of "filmies" or digies", for instance. It's still the movies.


Great point, Josh.

I think so too. I mean, if you're going to make a movie, wouldn't it be nice if it's so good that it's still enjoyed one-hundred years from now and considered a classic? You bet. On the other hand, I think it's perfectly cool and by far more important that it's entertaining and meaningful to you and your audience today, right now. Why worry about your immortality. As it stands now, as far as I know, there's no such thing, really.

And come to think of it, I doubt your investors or the studio cares how it will play in the twenty-second century. They want their returns and profit now.

Besides, maybe the people of one-hundred or five-thousand years from now will be nothing but a bunch of a-holes who wouldn't know a good film from Jersey Shore.

Or maybe they'll believe that film is a sin, and they'll burn every copy they can get their hands on. "Film" will cease to exist.

Who knows?



I was daydreaming at work today about what form movies could take in the future. (I like how James calls them "motion pictures." That might be a good alternative to calling them "film" or "video.")

What if we take the concepts of recording peoples' experiences from the films Brainstorm, Strange Days, or linking into their brains like in The Matrix or Total Recall?

But, of course instead of just playing back experiences or putting the audience into a virtual world, we want to plug stories, narratives, feature "films" into peoples' minds/brains.

Imagine how that might work. So, maybe such films would still be shot in largely the same way they are now. And maybe at the same, or in addition to, they'd be shot largely in the minds of the filmmakers.

You'd probably still hire actors, for example. You'd still make sets. Find locations. Costumes. Art direction. Lots of the same stuff that happens now.

On the other hand, the filmmaker might be able to literally imagine the whole movie, or at least parts of it.

The filmmaker might be able to pull things from her memory and incorporate it. If need be, the filmmakers might have to go out and capture experience, visuals, aurals (If I'm making that word up, I'm okay with that.), feelings, incidents, etc. In fact, just like today, they'd probably have to do a lot of staging of events and incidents according to the screenplay/story...maybe even just as much.

You could rely on the audience's own imagination and mental repertoire to fill in special effects. In that way it would be almost like the "telepathic" relationship between a writer's narrative and his readers. Think of all the money saved there; your audience's own imagination and mental power would fill in the SFX and whatever else for you.

On the other hand, I suspect you might still spend a lot of time and money creating those SFX much as they are now so that your audience would see just what you'd want them to see, or to ensure quality and consistency of product, just as is required in food manufacturing, for example, today, etc.

Acquisition, the camera, I suppose, would be something that records the filmmakers' brain waves, physiological responses, mental processes etc. I'm guessing it would also incorporate conventional, or more conventional video acquisition, compositing, all that stuff.

We're still talking about narrative film, or feature "film," here, or motion picture and experience. So we're not talking about making a virtual world and setting the audience free in it. We want to tell a story. The audience member is still "stuck" with the story we're telling. They're still largely an observer. This is how the tradition of telling a story, as we're familiar with it, survives these technological developments. That is, a storyteller still tells a story [shows, really, since we're talking about film], and a listener still receives [experiences] it.

An alternative might be the Total Recall/The Matrix version, in which the subject enters a virtual world more like a video game. But let's stick with movies, here, in which the art of telling and receiving a story is maintained.

Again. The production of such a film would, I should think, still be much as it is today. There would still be much of the usual crew --for major productions at least.

(Young Billy, or an ambitious I.T.er, if and when such technology became readily available to consumers, could concoct such a "mental film" in his bedroom all on his lonesome, at least theoretically.)

There might still be art directors, set designers, production designers, wardrobe, etc etc...much of the whole shebang.

And of course there would still be editing. They will use NLEs of some sort. But it will probably be much more interesting, and much more complicated, than today's. The editor will be working with a mixture, I'd bet, of recorded brain waves, video, SFX, you name it.

And I suppose on the end user side you're talking about hooking the audience's brain up to a playback device --much like in those movies mentioned above.

Think of the possibilities. You might literally make your audience feel fear at the appropriate moment. Give them goose bumps. Trigger arousal. The list of drama-enhancing possibilities seems long. Okay, I suppose one-hundred years from now such things might be considered too invasive, just as they probably would be today. And maybe that would be too much like interacting with a virtual world (à la The Matrix, Total Recall).

Then you might need a doctor's okay to watch. Or maybe there will be a sort of "mute or volume level button" for the more intense inputs, so more frail "viewers" could watch without inducing a heart attack, or whatever.

There might be a special Academy Award for technological innovations in autonomic nervous system manipulation, for example. :P

Think of how the acquisition of such material might happen, first of all, and then how it would be worked with in the editing room.

Anyway. :)
 
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