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Directors: How to speak to your composers

Hi all,

First "real" post here. I'm a composer, and I have a podcast with three other guys (two of which are other composers) about filmscoring. In one particular episode, we hit upon what I think is pretty valuable information for filmmakers: first, how one might go about getting in to film scoring (and that includes if you're a filmmaker attempting to score your own film); and second, how directors should speak to their composers.

You can listen to it here.

But I'm interested in getting a discussion going about this, because communication between director and composer is inherently odd, especially if you've never worked with a composer before.

Filmmakers, what sort of problems have you run in to while communicating your desires to your composer?

Composers, what's the number one thing you wish a filmmaker would do/not do?
 
Directors should take some basic music appreciation lessons.

That's what directors need to do with most of the filmmaking crafts - they need to learn the "language". For music even the basics like tempo/BPM, keys (major/minor), instrumentation, knowing specific styles of music, (everything from Gregorian chant to eclectic trip-hop) would make their films and filmmaking experience better. For post sound they need to learn process - dialog editing, Foley performance & recording, sound effects creation/editing, spotting music/score and rerecording (mixing). They don't have to know how to do any of these things, but directors need to be able to communicate their wishes clearly.

When members of any specialist profession - be it high finance, auto repair, audio/video or any of a thousand other jobs - they speak in their own "inside" language. My dad used to work for IBM as a bu$ine$$ manager (he retired almost 20 years ago), and he always complained that the computer guys talked in "Abracadabra." So he took a basic computer course to learn the "language." He even understood the joke "there are 10 types of people who understand binary - those who do and those who don't."

The point is that those who work in the entertainment industry (or any other profession) need to take "language" classes so they can understand the members of the other crafts with whom they interact. I took a few acting seminars and a basic (visuals) editing seminar. I interact with actors when doing dialog for animation, VO and ADR, so I needed some understanding there, and I interact with new editors frequently. Taking the seminars gave me the basics of the language that they speak.

I didn't need any music classes - I was a working musician for over 25 years.
 
Alcove raises some good points. I'm intending to take acting classes, along with a few other things between semesters.

When I click your link it just takes me to a video -presumably a trailer of your podcast? Are we meant to get it through iTunes? (and if so, is there another source? I have managed to avoid installing iTunes for over a year now)

As for the discussion. As a director, I want the composer to communicate with me as much as possible throughout the process. Music was my first passion, and while I was never technically skilled at it, I'm still very interested in it. I want to know your thoughts, and I want the score to be a collaborative *idea.*
If I talk to a composer when I'm still writing something/in pre-pro, I want the composer to start brainstorming, and maybe even create some rough pieces inspired by the script and story - I'm not a huge fan of "Yes I'd be interested. Get back to me when you have the visual edit locked."
I don't want the composer to just look for me for guidance (but do listen to me - if you think my idea is wrong, say so), but I want them to contribute new ideas and even surprise me/breathe new life into the film.
I'll reinforce it-communication is big. I realise in the world of low budget filmmaking, we're almost all doing this in our spare time. But if you get busy for the week, just let me know, instead of me going "crap, a weeks radio silence, do I need to find someone new?"

Obviously these expectations vary a bit depending if/how much you're being paid (whilst I would like these things, I realise if I can't afford to pay you, you're going to be less willing to spend as much time preparing *draft* scores etc).
 
Chesseandachallenge (great name, btw), what browser are you on? I tested my link and it's looking good. There is a video directly underneath the audio player for the podcast, but you should be seeing a box with an audio player. I linked to the page so that the the correct episode is immediately cued up. The podcast is called "Uncomposed," and this episode is called "How To Do Things" (and you'll see the podcasters' names underneath the title…Teague, Alex, Kyle, Gordy). You can listen to it directly on the page. It's working perfectly in Safari and Chrome, but if you're in Internet Explorer, who knows ;)

Anyways.

Alcove, I half agree wholeheartedly and I half completely disagree. Not that I don't love it when a director can speak my language. But…two things:

1) I've worked to be able to speak theirs, and they already have so much to worry about. Being a composer is hard, but being a director is waaaaayyyy harder.

2) They usually can't speak it as well as they think. More often than not, when a director (or any random person, for that matter) knows a little bit about a subject, they think they know more than they actually do. Instead of speaking within the realm of filmmaking (emotion, narrative devices, etc--the things we're all familiar with), they use musical language incorrectly and end up actually making the communication more difficult. One example is when a director kept telling me, "Just put a sine wave there!" I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about.[i/] If he had just said what he meant ("We need a small sonic signature for this character in this spot"), much confusion would have been avoided.

But, at the same time, it's amazing when a director takes into consideration how much of an impossibility re-timing the current score to his drastically new cut will be because they understand the concept of tempo and how it's one of the single biggest factors in how a score interacts with a scene.

Cheese, I'm with you there. I generally love collaborating as early as possible. But…again, there's a caveat. It all depends on the director. Some directors can get "temp-love" with your demos. Also, you might find that the film is entirely different than the one that was in your head while you were reading the script, requiring different music. And when those two problems happen at once…uh oh. I think that's why so many composers like to wait until there's a cut. Sure, re-timing cues is annoying but it's just part of the process and generally not a huge deal. But when you're pretty much forced to keep music that you know doesn't work, that's something else entirely.

I'm glad to hear of your approach to collaborating, though. I wish more directors would realize that we're basically forming a band--it's not that much different. It just so happens that one person does all the music-making, and I guess the director can fire you if he wants (but we try not to think about that :D). But really, at its best it's an even-field collaboration, Lennon/McCartney style.
 
I am Chrome too. Unsure as to what is happening there... I see the spinning loading symbol, but then nothing appears.

You make a point about the difficulties of demos, and I do understand the hesitation. Personally, I just would like a few tidbits (not full scores), or even a simple "I'm thinking something quite industrial and aggressive for "x scene," in this kind of vein [example from own work or another song]."

But I do understand the difficulties of this.
 
I've listened to an hour of the podcast and it's really good. High quality stuff and a confident informal discussion. Not sure why others are having such a problem, just don't click on the video!

As a director, I've worked with the same composer on pretty much all of my major projects so far, which I guess is useful because it means we pretty much understand each other's mode of operation.

As a director, especially in post, I am not one for pretending that I can do other people's jobs for them. I fully accept that my skills (if I have any) are as a writer/director, not as a composer, sound designer, editor, VFX artist, colourist...etc. Which isn't to say that I don't offer input and feedback, but, ultimately, I think that each element of the filmmaking process is a creative art form and needs a degree of autonomy. None of my instructions for composing have ever been too heavy or prescriptive - for my last project I said something like: 'I want the score to be piano led, and take the classical influences (Chopin plays in the first scene) and give them an urban twist'. I think that was pretty much the extent to which I gave an overall direction to the score, although, of course, we then discussed each individual scene and the ideas for it. But I think it's important for a director to be receptive to a composer's ideas and this means you have to work with someone whose musical instinct and talent you trust.

You guys talk about it in your podcast, but if a composer is just rehashing John Williams, Hans Zimmer or Danny Elfman, then there's no reason why you shouldn't direct them as closely as you would an inexperienced actor, because, after all, it's just a form of performance. But if they're doing something organic and individual then I think that the communication needs to offer them the chance to explore their own thoughts. A composer's musical instincts about a film are likely to be more in tune than mine (which isn't to say that I would take their word on it if I really didn't like the music!).
 
I've listened to an hour of the podcast and it's really good. High quality stuff and a confident informal discussion. Not sure why others are having such a problem, just don't click on the video!

I'm glad you like the podcast! We're just getting going. We plan on doing sync'd-up discussions with films (like the "parent" podcast on the site, What Are You Doing Movie?) and inviting some guest composers on.

As a director, I've worked with the same composer on pretty much all of my major projects so far, which I guess is useful because it means we pretty much understand each other's mode of operation.

As a director, especially in post, I am not one for pretending that I can do other people's jobs for them. I fully accept that my skills (if I have any) are as a writer/director, not as a composer, sound designer, editor, VFX artist, colourist...etc. Which isn't to say that I don't offer input and feedback, but, ultimately, I think that each element of the filmmaking process is a creative art form and needs a degree of autonomy. None of my instructions for composing have ever been too heavy or prescriptive - for my last project I said something like: 'I want the score to be piano led, and take the classical influences (Chopin plays in the first scene) and give them an urban twist'. I think that was pretty much the extent to which I gave an overall direction to the score, although, of course, we then discussed each individual scene and the ideas for it. But I think it's important for a director to be receptive to a composer's ideas and this means you have to work with someone whose musical instinct and talent you trust.

You guys talk about it in your podcast, but if a composer is just rehashing John Williams, Hans Zimmer or Danny Elfman, then there's no reason why you shouldn't direct them as closely as you would an inexperienced actor, because, after all, it's just a form of performance. But if they're doing something organic and individual then I think that the communication needs to offer them the chance to explore their own thoughts. A composer's musical instincts about a film are likely to be more in tune than mine (which isn't to say that I would take their word on it if I really didn't like the music!).

I think you're taking a great approach (piano-led, urban twist). As a composer, that's an incredibly helpful direction--it immediately puts me in to a certain mode of thinking. If we can think of the "sonic palette" of the film's score as a box, then that sort of direction is like drawing dotted lines. We have a lot of room to stretch and change, but the shape is outlined.

We touched on this in the podcast, but basically, the best thing you can do is speak to us like actors. Like you said, it's a performance (albeit a different form).

I like your approach to composers, but let's flip it around: is there anything you think composers could (generally) do differently in their approach to directors? What to focus on in the discussion, what terms to avoid, etc?
 
The communication between filmmaker and composer is an interesting struggle. I usually put most of the burden as the composer on myself (stupid work ethics). I don't expect a director to know what key something should be in....I mean, I barely know what an f-stop is! What I like is directors/producers/music supervisors that say "hey that isn't working because it seems more this when it should be that" rather than "nope, try again!" (I've received exactly that feedback before, until I came up with something that was almost but legally distinct from the temp score). Anyway, I like to hear what mood that's trying to be caught and what I'm doing that's missing it. I'm good at what I do. I know that. But that's not necessarily what the director wants. I like direction just as much as the actors do.

cheeseandachallenge, I get where you're coming from about wanting composers to be onboard from the script stage, but on the other hand, we're trying to pay the bills, so the projects that we take on (particularly for free) are limited, and MANY projects fall apart before anything is actually filmed. Also, a lot of the score (at least the way I like to work) is influenced and informed by the visual look/rhythm of the actors' movement. Not to say that I can't score from a script (I've done 48 hour film projects), but that never yields the best results.

But, on the other hand, I get when an indie filmmaker finally gets a locked edit, so they want the film to be done right then, not waiting for a score (or other sound work). I'm waiting for album art for something that's been done for a couple months, so I understand the feeling. I guess what I want to say most of all is filmmakers should be a little patient in post (and maybe use that time to start marketing if they haven't (and they should have))
 
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Yeah, I totally understand the issues with scoring from the script. I kind of think of it in terms of contributing to the writing, if that makes sense. I like to write to music, and I like to edit to music (I really struggle editing some sequences when I don't have some basic Foley - so I create my own temp sound effects and sometimes use a song from my own library as a temp score). The music can give new ideas, take things a different direction, etc, the same way that a DP's thoughts on the visual style can.

It's not because of the frustration of waiting for your audio edit, for me (which is frustrating but a dumb think to be impatient at - if I can spend a week fine tuning ten seconds of footage, I can't expect someone to create a sound mix in a few days).
 
…a lot of the score (at least the way I like to work) is influenced and informed by the visual look/rhythm of the actors' movement. Not to say that I can't score from a script (I've done 48 hour film projects), but that never yields the best results.

Excellent point. That's exactly why I almost never agree to let any music that I wrote during the script stage in to the film (any recordings, I mean…obviously the ideas generated during the script stage will hopefully inform the actual score). The one crucial element that's missing when writing to a script instead of to picture is timing, and timing is quite possibly the single most important element in scoring.
 
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