Getting Demoted?

I have been directing for about 7 years. I wrote a script for a movie my bud likes. My bud is a bit older and has been directing for 20 years! He writes, produces, directs, and everything. He's also a business man and gets to see the ins and outs of both professions. Anyway for a while he's been talking about assembling a crew to make the film happen. And also funding as well! He told me I could direct and I was all set! But then he said he found 3 other directors interested in the film who have done countless countless movies.

This is when it started to suck. My bud is now screening those directors for the main director role, while I get shafted to AD, apprentice, or even less who knows. I wrote it and put all the ideas for camera and such, I hope I get to keep writing position to. He told me it helps sell the film and that's what all good productions have to go through.

Is it normal for this to happen? How did it turn out if it happened to you? My guess is even if you're really good at directing, lighting, cinematography, and working with actors, they do this to help sell a movie? It just seems strange to me *shrug shoulders*
 
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First; welcome to indietalk.

You know, of course, that the First AD is not a "demotion" from
director. The First is a completely different job. You know that
because you have been directing for about 7 years, but some
here may not. The bad news is, if the producer wants a different
director the producer can hire one. Since you did not have a
written contract stating that you would direct there is little you
can do.

Sorry this is happening to you. turns out you bud is more of a
business man than a friend and I know how much that sucks.
We all do. This is why everyone should have written contracts
even among friends.

What you could do is not allow him to use the script you have
written. Unless you have a written contract with him regarding
the script, it is still your script. do not allow him to use it. You
could in essence hold it hostage. He can use this script only if you
direct. Otherwise you take it to another producer and work out
the directing deal.
 
Of course - and yes, it's really hard to look at it this way - since he is a businessman and has 20+ years experience, you should be complimented that he wants to get the best director he can to direct a script in which he believes so strongly.

I've been in the position numerous times where I did all the work and got none of the credit, which I feel is even worse. At least you will get credit where credit is due.
 
Sorry about your situation. I'll just reiterate two things Rik said
1. The AD position is completely different from that of a director so you need to think about whether it is for you or not, if you can learn to do it, etc. (for instance, it's not for me. I don't have the right personality)
2. Unless you have a written contract with your friend regarding the script, it's your script, and nobody can make it into a movie without your permission. So think about what kind of leverage you might have. You might just want to get paid, if directing is not a possibility.

Hope things work out for your. Welcome to the board.
Aveek
 
I've been in the position numerous times where I did all the work and got none of the credit

Dang that's horrible. I'm more of a director than writer that's why I do want to be able to use it in my reel and get to work with others and big productions.

And yes AD is much different than a director's sidekick. He says that the new director will take my vision and my advice. But that's not in writing and I don't really want to end up ultimately as just an Assistant Director. But I guess it's a step in the right direction? Hopefully it is nothing personal about my ability and just for marketing reasons.

Thanks for any more advice in advance guys
 
He says that the new director will take my vision and my advice. But that's not in writing and I don't really want to end up ultimately as just an Assistant Director.

You might want to put that in some perspective. If your friend hired me as a director, and let's say I was a seasoned director, I wouldn't take your advice just because your friend told me to. I'd take your advice, only if I thought it was any good. So it's subjective. I wouldn't really let anybody tell me what they thought I should do with the movie. I'd probably come in with my own plan. And if you kept giving me too much advice, I'd probably get resentful, etc...

So you may want to think about your position in this effort. Think about where you have control, and where you don't. Just because a filmmaker, or anybody, promises you something, doesn't really mean anything. Things have already shifted under your feet. They will again. If you're prepared for it, you will remain a happy man. If you put too much faith in what your friend tells you, you might get sad again. So just be smart about things I suppose.

Sorry I can't be of much more help at the moment. I just wanted to give you a general sense of "be careful."
best,
aveek
 
I've actually previously considered what I would do in this scenario. The way I see it, you're kind of looking at a glass half-full/half-empty scenario.

If it were me, yeah, I would probably be as diplomatic as possible, but I might border on being bull-headed, in making sure that I direct the thing. Cuz yeah, this is your baby, and it sucks to think that someone else might be taking control of it.

But on the flip-side, you've got someone excited about your writing, he wants to finance it, he wants to keep you involved (at least in some respect). That's a good thing. It's not exactly what you were looking for, but it's definitely a glass half-full!

So, I can't advise you what to do cuz I've never been in your shoes. I can only say that I think you should look out for your best interests, and if that means taking a stance that you want to direct, then do that, and don't be afraid to be diplomatic but confident and bold. Conversely, don't feel bad about the "lesser" of the scenarios, because even that is still a good scenario. :)
 
The way you should look at it is - How badly do you want this movie to be made?

If you walked away with your script, is there someone else waiting in the wings?

I'm guessing the guy thinks it's going to make money. Do you want a part of that?

Basically, go with the flow. Hopefully they'll improve and not destroy your work.

Either way, hope you make some cash, and the movie turns out to be a positive turning point for you.
 
I think the OP is getting that Lando Calrissian/Darth Vader relationship feeling:

lando-vader-boba.png

Darth Vader: Calrissian. Take the princess and the Wookie to my ship.

Lando: You said they'd be left at the city under my supervision!

Darth Vader: I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further.


http://www.imdb.com/character/ch0000031/quotes

:no::grumpy::weird:


AS the OP grabs his ankles an "takes it" how much of this situation is he supposed to "appreciate"?
 
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AS the OP grabs his ankles an "takes it" how much of this situation is he supposed to "appreciate"?

Ray, I love you dude, and I enjoy many of your contributions, but to be frank, I think you need the greater context of actually being out there -- trying and trying again to get your work noticed, working diligently to network with people, hustling and begging to get underqualified people to work on your project (and being genuinely grateful that they did).

In this context, a partial-success is not a failure. It is a success! :)
 
In the given scenario I do believe the person acting as producer, stating that the OP was to be the director of the material he has written, then subsequently altering that position to anything else - without any rational or professional conversation leading to an agreement - is acting less than ethical.

If you and I have an agreement that's really a contract I'm sticking to my end of it until you and I come to some harsh reality understandings that say otherwise.
I tend to be a man of honor, even if such is rather passé in our culture.
If I'm going to h3ll it's not going to be over something as petty as dodging a conversation with a business partner.

Now, to move on to something a little less... subjective, US law has clearly defined what is an enforceable contract, written or oral.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/contracts
If the following criteria are met a contract is enforceable:
1. Offer
2. Acceptance
3. Consideration (something of value, such as goods or money)
4. Permissible subject matter (contracts for illegal acts, for instance, are not enforceable)
5. Legal age and mental ability to enter into a contract ("capacity")
6. Intent to form a contract

1 - The position of director was offered.
2 - The position was accepted.
3 - Compensation was either accepted or waived.
4 - The role of director was legal.
5 - We're going to assume the OP is not a minor and is legally competent.
6 - The OP wanted to be the director that the producer was offering, so there is a contract.

These conditions satisfy an enforceable contract that the "producer" is changing at will.

This is NOT a success.
This is unethical.
Immoral.
And illegal.

I'm not going to hell or jail over dumb sh!t.
This is dumb sh!t.

Ron is due what he and his business partner have agreed to.
However, Ron may have made a very poor business agreement.
These aren't high school kids or weekend hobbyists mucking around.
These are grown men who know better, or should.
 
Thanks for all for those standing up for me...... and thanks to those letting me know that you got to bite the bullet and accept it. Both views really help me.

The reason why I guess it did bother me is that I'm not trying to be a professional writer; my dream is to direct and my friend knows that. So being listed as writer doesn't really help all that much. AD can still open some doors if Im being positive.

I have been taken advantage of in the past and am always weary. However, that was in the past and I believe I'm with people I know and can trust.

For a moment I was thinking about just stepping away and telling them exactly what was on my mind. That you got to have some integrity and not do things behind people's back just to make dollars. I think it annoyed me because in order to arrive to this point, there were also lots of other little lies in the process. Please any more opinion and suggestions are welcome.
 
In the given scenario I do believe the person acting as producer, stating that the OP was to be the director of the material he has written, then subsequently altering that position to anything else - without any rational or professional conversation leading to an agreement - is acting less than ethical.

If you and I have an agreement that's really a contract I'm sticking to my end of it until you and I come to some harsh reality understandings that say otherwise.
I tend to be a man of honor, even if such is rather passé in our culture.
If I'm going to h3ll it's not going to be over something as petty as dodging a conversation with a business partner.

Now, to move on to something a little less... subjective, US law has clearly defined what is an enforceable contract, written or oral.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/contracts
If the following criteria are met a contract is enforceable:
1. Offer
2. Acceptance
3. Consideration (something of value, such as goods or money)
4. Permissible subject matter (contracts for illegal acts, for instance, are not enforceable)
5. Legal age and mental ability to enter into a contract ("capacity")
6. Intent to form a contract

1 - The position of director was offered.
2 - The position was accepted.
3 - Compensation was either accepted or waived.
4 - The role of director was legal.
5 - We're going to assume the OP is not a minor and is legally competent.
6 - The OP wanted to be the director that the producer was offering, so there is a contract.

These conditions satisfy an enforceable contract that the "producer" is changing at will.

This is NOT a success.
This is unethical.
Immoral.
And illegal.

I'm not going to hell or jail over dumb sh!t.
This is dumb sh!t.

Ron is due what he and his business partner have agreed to.
However, Ron may have made a very poor business agreement.
These aren't high school kids or weekend hobbyists mucking around.
These are grown men who know better, or should.

Doesn't it seem like the two of them were sitting around and the guy told Ron "This is really good. Let's do it. You can direct, I'll Produce." Ron said "Great". Then the other guy saw better options for Director. Maybe he'd shown the script to others for opinions.

Maybe Ron would be magnificent in the role of Director. But, these others have more experience. Maybe they're just better Directors outright.

Does it suck for Ron? Yeah. But, his script might be better for the change. They're already starting with more "known" experience.

Maybe having a more experienced Director will get them funding easier.

He doesn't go into enough detail to say anything definitively. But, making the best picture possible should be the end goal. His friend seems to think a more experienced director is the way to go.
 
I'll say two things.

1. You don't have anything in writing now. Get something in writing! Start with the original agreement: he produces and you direct, and negotiate from there. It's your script, you have leverage. And remember, a good contract is something that protects and satisfies both parties.

2. Re: the whole "I am a director not a writer" situation, here's some perspective.
From wikipedia:
After Tarantino met Lawrence Bender at a Hollywood party, Bender encouraged him to write a screenplay. Tarantino directed and co-wrote a movie called My Best Friend's Birthday in 1987. The final reel of the film was almost fully destroyed in a lab fire that occurred during editing but its screenplay would form the basis for True Romance.
We have no way of knowing how it felt to Mr. Tarantino to lose his position as director of his film, if IT were around then maybe he would have come on to make a thread about being 'demoted' to just a writer.

BUT, that film was a critical success and broke even. After it Tarantino had enough clout to direct his next film himself. That film was Reservoir Dogs and the rest is history.

Just some food for thought.
 
1 - Doesn't it seem like the two of them were sitting around and the guy told Ron "This is really good. Let's do it. You can direct, I'll Produce." Ron said "Great". Then the other guy saw better options for Director. Maybe he'd shown the script to others for opinions.

2 - Maybe Ron would be magnificent in the role of Director. But, these others have more experience. Maybe they're just better Directors outright.

3 - Does it suck for Ron? Yeah. But, his script might be better for the change. They're already starting with more "known" experience.

4 - Maybe having a more experienced Director will get them funding easier.

5 - He doesn't go into enough detail to say anything definitively. But, making the best picture possible should be the end goal. His friend seems to think a more experienced director is the way to go.
1 - Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly how it sounds to me.
And at that level they still have an enforceable oral contract.

2 - I'll give him the benefit of a doubt that after 7yrs of it he ought to be at least fairly good.
And maybe the other directors are better, even with more or less experience.
(Lord knows I work with enough idiots with more experience than I, but that doesn't make them better and me worse).

3 - Kinda does. Agreed. Emphasis on the "might". Known goes a long way towards marketing which is almost as important as premise and certainly more than content.
(That's a WHOLLLLE other conversation right there. ;) )

4 - Guarand@mnteed it will. And everyone involved should know this as faith - ASSUMING - it's a director anyone cares about to begin with.

5 - Agreed. We may be supposing a bit, but I imagine we're not far off the mark. At least two sides to any story. (Probably more).
Ehh... I don't know about making "the best picture possible" A) which is fairly subjective (lotta peeps don't like what a lotta others did, so who's "right" about "best"?), and B) at all costs, screwing everybody over in the wake of SS Big&Bad Decisions.
Not too cool.
Probably not legal.
Certainly not good long term business practices.

I'd like to think I could always maintain a moral highground in conducting business.
This isn't about taking your fair share of community donuts in the break room.
This is about conducting business.


For all we know "Bud" could be testing Ron's mettle for future projects.
Bud might be be looking for someone with backbone and more than a 9-5 M-F puttin' in his time level of commitment.
Might.
I'm pretty sure if Ron stands up for his rights he can maintain more control and involvement than if he just pusses out and sulks.
HOWEVER, if his "Bud" producer controls the purse strings then poor ol' Ron can find himself cut all the way out.
"Bud" can alter a few plot points, settings, switch character genders and re-brand the whole project with himself as writer and producer.
Ron doesn't even get hind tit.
Ron gets the shaft.

All depends upon how he and Bud wanna play this game, and it is a game. And an ugly one at that.

(PSSSST! Ron! Your Bud isn't impressing me).
 
the key to the entire situation is "bud" ...

Do you trust your "bud?"
If your close enough to trust him, then maybe He's doing you a favor. Getting your film made with a PROVEN money making director, and LETTING you AD could be a VERY good thing for your future.

Buds talking is different then biz partners talking. This might have all started as somewhat of a lark for him, now that its gotten"real" he knows your not the right man for the job.

If you are real buds, and you have real trust, you should be able to ask him directly what hes thinking.

If hes not your bud, your likely getting screwed and you should run, but if he IS your bud, then maybe you should just trust him a little more. (trust but verify with writing)
 
I'd like to think I could always maintain a moral highground in conducting business.
This isn't about taking your fair share of community donuts in the break room.
This is about conducting business.

HOWEVER, if his "Bud" producer controls the purse strings then poor ol' Ron can find himself cut all the way out.
"Bud" can alter a few plot points, settings, switch character genders and re-brand the whole project with himself as writer and producer.
Ron doesn't even get hind tit.
Ron gets the shaft.

[/I]

Moral high ground in 2012? It's gone the way of common courtesy.

It's funny, I was watching a special on Woody Allen. He wrote the script What's New Pussycat. He'd wanted to direct it, but they refused. He watched the Producers and Director them destroy his screenplay. After that he would only allow himself to direct his material. Guess it worked out fine for him.
 
I think Woody Allen is doing just fine for himself.

Just cuz some people are shady doesn't mean we're all given permission to be. The Golden Rule is just as meaningful as ever, and the only way to earn trust is to place your trust in others.

I think wheat's advice, a couple posts above, is very sage.
 
It does seem pretty messed up. I wouldn't mind if he had just been frank in the beginning. I'm wondering if I can even trust him anymore (realizing exactly when and where he was dodging truths.) Especially with future projects. Like if we decide to make another film, what's to stop him from just getting another director who always has more years on me? I am actually cool with not being able to direct this one, but what's to stop it from just repeating over and over?

I took a look at the other director's work and it didn't really stand out to me. Lots of people who have seen his work made some pretty harsh comments. I'd say his work is decent.

My main thing is- Into The Light has been entrancing my mind for over 10 years. I want to be able to direct it someday. If I let them use the concept for this film, I hope they aren't planning to try to own it. Remember if it does get some exposure the people that do see it only get that 1 first impression.
 
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