Audio Technica AT897

Hi!

I know there is a huge price difference between these microphones. Could I get away making a feature with an AT897 though? Anyone out there using one?

Is it worth the extra money to get into something like a Neumann KMR-82?

Also -- anyone use the XM-88 by Vidpro?

Thank you!
 
Hi!

I know there is a huge price difference between these microphones. Could I get away making a feature with an AT897 though? Anyone out there using one?

Is it worth the extra money to get into something like a Neumann KMR-82?

Also -- anyone use the XM-88 by Vidpro?

Thank you!

More of your sound is wrapped in your knowledge of your gear and how to implement it than the quality of your gear. Having high quality gear is only part of the battle. So, if you have a pretty reasonable understanding of the core theory behind sound, everyone's expensive advice is really pointless unless you're shooting a mid to high budget feature.

Can you get away with shooting a feature with an AT897? Sure. Did you know major albums are recorded with a $250 condenser mic in the studio (Rode NT1, NT1A or NT2)? So, an expensive mic is not typically the answer to better sound. What you should really ask is, "Should I attempt to shoot a film with this microphone and this capture device, with a boom op who is willing to work on the weekends for meals and travel expenses?"

The answer to that question is more important.

If you want to shoot a movie, I personally feel you should put your best foot forward. Hire a professional, who comes equipped with gear and knowledge. That's more powerful anyday, than buying a better mic and still not possessing the knowledge to implement.
 
More of your sound is wrapped in your knowledge of your gear and how to implement it than the quality of your gear. Having high quality gear is only part of the battle. So, if you have a pretty reasonable understanding of the core theory behind sound, everyone's expensive advice is really pointless unless you're shooting a mid to high budget feature.

Can you get away with shooting a feature with an AT897? Sure. Did you know major albums are recorded with a $250 condenser mic in the studio (Rode NT1, NT1A or NT2)? So, an expensive mic is not typically the answer to better sound. What you should really ask is, "Should I attempt to shoot a film with this microphone and this capture device, with a boom op who is willing to work on the weekends for meals and travel expenses?"

The answer to that question is more important.

If you want to shoot a movie, I personally feel you should put your best foot forward. Hire a professional, who comes equipped with gear and knowledge. That's more powerful anyday, than buying a better mic and still not possessing the knowledge to implement.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I appreciate your reference as well. I am a sound person. In the studio, recording music... something like a Neumann u47 would record a lot more bass than a Rode NT1... it would also have a creamier mid range, etc. It would be easier to work with come mix time (depending on the voice you are recording of course!)

Therefore... I was wondering if someone with experience with shotgun microphones has used an AT897... what does it bring out? Does it have quite a peak in the high mids to bring out voices, etc.? How does the sonic palette differ from a different type of shotgun mic. How does it differ from the Neumann? Is the Neumann one of the higher quality shotgun mics? How come?

I will have musicians I trust holding the boom, but I'd like to know the sonic differences between microphones.

Thank you
 
Could I get away making a feature with an AT897 though?

It all depends on what you mean by "get away" with. Are we talking about a no budget feature for say Youtube or a theatrical feature for a decent film festival or commercial use? If it's the former, then "yes" but as you move up the food chain then increasingly the answer becomes "no"! The exact answer is of course tempered by how the mics are used. Mics are a tool and like any tool, how they are used is just as important as which tool is used.

I appreciate your reference as well. I am a sound person. In the studio, recording music... something like a Neumann u47 would record a lot more bass than a Rode NT1... it would also have a creamier mid range, etc. It would be easier to work with come mix time (depending on the voice you are recording of course!)

I wouldn't be too appreciative of the reference if I were you! As far as sound for picture is concerned it's a rather meaningless and misleading reference! In a music recording studio we take certain things for granted when recording; controlled/highly controlled acoustics, low/extremely low background noise levels and the ability to place both the musician and whatever mics we want, wherever we want them. One can therefore make a decently audible recording with pretty much any mic, so mic choice is mainly about relative subtleties of tone, character and feel rather than the basics of just getting a functional signal. This is in stark contrast to production sound where mic position, talent positioning, acoustics and noise levels are all dictated by concerns other than getting quality audio. Production sound and production sound equipment is therefore geared to getting functional audio and the subtleties of character, tone and feel are almost completely irrelevant compared to their pretty much paramount importance in a music recording studio! Clean (with a high degree of additional noise rejection), transparent and reliable is what characterises the most favoured professional production sound equipment whereas frequently in music recording "colour" rather than transparency is the factor which overrides just about any other consideration.

Did you know major albums are recorded with a $250 condenser mic in the studio (Rode NT1, NT1A or NT2)?

I didn't know that! Which is surprising as I've been involved in recording albums (quite a few of them major albums) for 25 years or so. The reason for me not knowing is that your statement is in fact incorrect! Sure, some major albums have been recorded where an NT1 has been one (of the many) mics used. I've used an NT1, they're a good mic for certain things, terrible for others. Mics are tools and different mics are different tools, so comparing music recording mics by their price is as meaningless as saying a cheap screwdriver is as good as an expensive hammer drill. I learnt an important lesson in the early 1990's when working at a world class recording studio where a pair of $100 SM57s out performed a balanced pair of vintage Neumann M50's valued at over $100,000. The lesson wasn't that M50s are overpriced pieces of crap, the lesson was that in that specific situation the SM57's were the right tool for the job and the M50's weren't. In many (but not all) other situations the M50's were vastly superior.

Not only are you quoting out of context or plain wrong information about mics but even if it were correct it would still be essentially irrelevant and misleading! So once again, with reference to other threads, please stop doing it.

OP: I will (and have) agreed with jrusso about the importance of how production sound equipment is used and therefore your best option is always to get someone experienced/talented to take care of the production sound for you. If you're intent on doing it yourself though, you would benefit from maybe hiring/borrowing some production sound equipment and testing it out for a few days. The high directivity required to reject noise combined with non-stationary sound sources (actors) and often non-stationary mic placement requirements/limitations, the skill of the boom operator is magnitudes more important to ultimate sound quality than any relative subtleties of mic colouration. Also, as cleanliness and transparency are the primary audio quality goals of production sound equipment then far more commonly (than in music recording equipment) the concept of quality is linked to price, although there are of course some exceptions which punch above their weights.

G
 
...I've been involved in recording albums (quite a few of them major albums) for 25 years or so.

No you haven't.

The reason for me not knowing is that your statement is in fact incorrect! Sure, some major albums have been recorded where an NT1 has been one (of the many) mics used.

So, let me get this straight, the Rode NT1 has not been used in major recordings, but then in the very next sentence it has?

At this point I'd like to suggest professional help. I don't know any psychologists in Europe, but if you're ever here in America I can refer you.
 
Thanks for your thoughts.

I appreciate your reference as well. I am a sound person. In the studio, recording music... something like a Neumann u47 would record a lot more bass than a Rode NT1... it would also have a creamier mid range, etc. It would be easier to work with come mix time (depending on the voice you are recording of course!)

Therefore... I was wondering if someone with experience with shotgun microphones has used an AT897... what does it bring out? Does it have quite a peak in the high mids to bring out voices, etc.? How does the sonic palette differ from a different type of shotgun mic. How does it differ from the Neumann? Is the Neumann one of the higher quality shotgun mics? How come?

I will have musicians I trust holding the boom, but I'd like to know the sonic differences between microphones.

Thank you

Also, another great mic for filmmaking which you can pickup for $150 and is used on major albums is the Rode M3... https://youtu.be/toGZmeX1jaM

It's a cardioid mic, and if you have only one mic available to you for field recording and a limited budget, you honestly cannot do better than this cardioid. You really should be using a cardioid for capturing numerous subjects at one time, and rely on noise reduction to remove any ambience where required. Shotgun mics are notorious for a tunnel feel and sound, and if you happen to miss someone's line if you're using a shotgun mic up too close, you have to ADR that line. A Shotgun mic works great for multiple subjects from further away because it's pattern widens the further away it is.

Generally the misunderstanding is that major field recordists use shotgun mics all the time, when that just isn't the case. Shotgun mics are used for capturing subjects from a distance. You would use a cardioid mic for capturing a subject when you can get the mic directly in front of their face. Every mic has it's application.

A shotgun mic was created for the sole purpose of capturing subjects from far away, and is the reason cameras come equipped with them. But you never see a news reporter holding a shotgun mic. Why is his/her mic cardioid? Because it can be held close to their mouth. The same with a mic on a boom pole. The whole purpose of putting a mic on a boom pole is to get it as close to the subject as possible. Why would you need a shotgun mic on a boom then, and why would you need a boom if you have a shotgun mic.

I assure you, a shotgun mic has it's application. For instance, if there is a wide shot, where the framing leaves a crapload of head room and nowhere for the boom op to stand on the left and right, then you need a shotgun mic in those situations. Especially if you have characters in costume and lavalier mics won't do the trick.
 
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A shotgun mic was created for the sole purpose of capturing subjects from far away

No, shotgun mics were designed to have high off-axis rejection. That makes shotgun mics somewhat better at capturing sound sources that are more distant with less ambient noise (provided that the shotgun mic is used properly, of course). This is a subtle but extremely important distinction.

But you never see a news reporter holding a shotgun mic.

Actually, in the mid-market (and smaller) areas, you do see reporters using short shotguns.

Why is his/her mic cardioid? Because it can be held close to their mouth.

The polar pattern has nothing to do with the a reporter using the mic in close. You can use ANY polar pattern close in, although field recording professionals tend to have their own preferences.

(The Rode M3 is) a cardioid mic, and if you have only one mic available to you for field recording and a limited budget, you honestly cannot do better than this cardioid.

Subjective opinion. I found the M3 to be clunky and only sounded fair (FYI - it's almost a direct clone of the AKG C1000S - which I own, BTW). I much prefer the sE Electronics SE1A in the low budget cardioid class (and yes, this is a personal opinion).


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akg_c1000s_mkII_main.jpg
 
No you haven't.

Yes I have, you have no idea what you're talking about ... no change there then!

OP: Feel free to ignore every detail of jrusso's last post. I'm sure you're aware that virtually every serious narrative filmmaker and production sound person/team from the amateur level all the way up to Hollywood blockbusters utilises some form of shotgun mic for the vast majority of their production sound recording, although at the professional level this is usually backed up by the use of wireless lavs. Hopefully it's obvious that everyone is not a misguided idiot and jrusso the only one who isn't!

G
 
No, shotgun mics were designed to have high off-axis rejection. That makes shotgun mics somewhat better at capturing sound sources that are more distant with less ambient noise (provided that the shotgun mic is used properly, of course). This is a subtle but extremely important distinction.



Actually, in the mid-market (and smaller) areas, you do see reporters using short shotguns.



The polar pattern has nothing to do with the a reporter using the mic in close. You can use ANY polar pattern close in, although field recording professionals tend to have their own preferences.



Subjective opinion. I found the M3 to be clunky and only sounded fair (FYI - it's almost a direct clone of the AKG C1000S - which I own, BTW). I much prefer the sE Electronics SE1A in the low budget cardioid class (and yes, this is a personal opinion).


08012310345618.jpg
akg_c1000s_mkII_main.jpg

I don't believe the electronics are an exact clone simply because the bodies have similarities.

Also, yes typically field sound recordists prefer cardioid mics closer in for a more natural sound.
 
IAlso, yes typically field sound recordists prefer cardioid mics closer in for a more natural sound.

Your ignorant trolling really is getting tiresome! I cant even be bothered to rebut the ridiculous points in your prior post (#6). But I recommend you go and find out what "proximity effect" is and also go and look up the recommended usage ranges/distances of some of the short shotguns on the market!!

No you haven't.

You don't know what I've done in my career, who I've worked with or where I've worked, DON'T BE A DICK!!!

G
 
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I don't believe the electronics are an exact clone simply because the bodies have similarities.

Yes, the electronics are extremely similar. You didn't hear about the threatened law suit regarding that issue a number of years ago? Oh, BTW, the M3 not a true condenser mic, it's an electret mic. That's not to say it isn't a decent mic for the price.

Also, yes typically field sound recordists prefer cardioid mics closer in for a more natural sound.

That statement is based upon what? I've done plenty of field recording work - with established professionals who have worked on large budget "Hollywood" productions - and I have never seen a preference for cardioids. In fact, if going the cardioid route, they tend to prefer hypercardioids. In addition, they frequently use several mics at different perspectives - a couple of hypers, a shotgun, and occasionally a dynamic in close if the sound source is on the loud side.
 
Yes, the electronics are extremely similar. You didn't hear about the threatened law suit regarding that issue a number of years ago? Oh, BTW, the M3 not a true condenser mic, it's an electret mic. That's not to say it isn't a decent mic for the price.

No, then that is interesting. Who made the original and who sued whom?
 
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The C1000S has been around for many, many years. AKG sued Rode. One of those situations where the actual claims and the settlement terms of the suit were not revealed, only that it had been settled.
 
Thank you -- I'm loving this thread.

It is giving me ideas anyhow... to record with a shotgun + use a cardoid. I am priviledged to own a Neumann SM69 fet, which captures beautiful sound. I have used it to record live concerts. It has u67 capsules in it and records from cardioid all the way to figure 8 with the dual capsules. It is making me think a good idea would be to capture sound with that microphone (compressed) + use a shotgun microphone + boom as well and then the sources could be mixed together... and if a line is missed, it could be covered by the "back up" mic.

Have any of you guys used the Audio Technica AT897 or the Zoom H4N? Anyone getting some decent results with them?

Also, I know DNTEL / The Postal Service uses a Rode K2 for his vocals and instruments -- https://youtu.be/CB6p58bTvzg?t=5m45s

I think his sound is not "filmic" though vocally. It is kind of bright, which works for their music, but maybe not for motion picture.
 
Thank you -- I'm loving this thread.

It is giving me ideas anyhow... to record with a shotgun + use a cardoid. I am priviledged to own a Neumann SM69 fet, which captures beautiful sound. I have used it to record live concerts. It has u67 capsules in it and records from cardioid all the way to figure 8 with the dual capsules. It is making me think a good idea would be to capture sound with that microphone (compressed) + use a shotgun microphone + boom as well and then the sources could be mixed together... and if a line is missed, it could be covered by the "back up" mic.

Have any of you guys used the Audio Technica AT897 or the Zoom H4N? Anyone getting some decent results with them?

Also, I know DNTEL / The Postal Service uses a Rode K2 for his vocals and instruments -- https://youtu.be/CB6p58bTvzg?t=5m45s

I think his sound is not "filmic" though vocally. It is kind of bright, which works for their music, but maybe not for motion picture.

The main point of my argument about shotgun mic usage is that some inexperienced filmmakers tend to think of the shotgun mic as being the be all, end all solution. It appears you see my point. All this bickering that's gone on around you is actually pointless, so my apologies for having to handle/deal with it here. I've asked AudioPostExpert to handle his/her opinions with me via PMs but he/she insists on naysaying/nitpicking me publicly. Not sure how I've gotten so lucky.

Yes, be prepared to have an arsenal of mics in your bag, as most pro audio guys do and if you can, have more than one mic/channel capturing your source so you give your sound editor a couple of choices. My personal opinion and the opinion of pros I've worked with is to sparingly use a shotgun mic, but that's your call.
 
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It is making me think a good idea would be to capture sound with that microphone (compressed) + use a shotgun microphone + boom as well and then the sources could be mixed together... and if a line is missed, it could be covered by the "back up" mic.

It's a shame jrusso has contributed to this thread and influenced your thinking. Now you're going to have to waste time trying it out and satisfying yourself what works and what doesn't. To this end, I strongly recommend you run some real world tests, in the sorts of locations your feature will be set, well before you actually start shooting your film. Wasting time when testing is obviously far preferable to wasting it during actual filming!

I'm not saying that having a "back up" mic is a bad idea, quite the contrary. Even most micro budget feature filmmakers use back up mics (in the form of lavs) and low/med/high budget feature makers use lavs as a backup as standard operating procedure. It's only at the nano/no budget levels that filmmakers tend to use just one mic, purely to reduce cost. Except in certain specific cases (ENG and occasionally as "plant" mics), the use of standard studio/general purpose cardioid condensers is avoided and I've never seen a large diameter studio condenser employed to capture production dialogue. Their sensitivity to movement, noise and other environmental factors normally rules out their use.

Something your tests may highlight is the skill required to operate the boom, one of the most common failings amongst inexperienced or extremely resource limited filmmakers. The widest polar pattern mic ever commonly employed on a boom is a hyper-cardioid, which is relatively forgiving but the tighter pattern mics (used for their improved noise rejection properties) obviously have a narrower "on axis" area, so need to be aimed more carefully. Getting consistent recordings therefore requires at least some skill and in many filming scenarios, considerable skill and experience on the part of the boom op. Providing the actors are seated or don't move around, a fixed position cardioid will make consistency far less of an issue. Compared to a well aimed shotgun/hyper though, it will also be consistently far noisier!

Another point to bare in mind; generally, mixing different mic sources together should be avoided. Although it's fairly common practice in music production, due to how theatrical sound systems, broadcast chains and audio formats work, inaudible phase discrepancies or even desirable phase based "effects" (in music production) can cause havoc in film! Nothing to worry about if you're just making a film for say Youtube distribution but film festival screenings and traditional commercial distribution channels is where you can run into serious problems.

Have any of you guys used the Audio Technica AT897 or the Zoom H4N?

I have used a H4N but not an AT897. The H4N is a handy tool for some purposes but it lacks the features/options commonly employed to streamline the audio post process of long form filmmaking. With additional time/effort this limitation can be worked around but the H4N's biggest drawback is that at moderate/high gain settings the internal mic pre-amps are unacceptably noisy. And, from what I've heard, the AT897 does not have a particularly strong output level, which would necessitate a higher pre-amp gain setting. Of course, what I consider to be "unacceptably" noisy may not be the same as what you consider to be acceptable.

The Postal Service uses a Rode K2 for his vocals and instruments -- I think his sound is not "filmic" though vocally.

You seem to be quite intent on applying music recording equipment and techniques to filmmaking and unfortunately, you've been encouraged in this view. Having started out in the audio industry as a music recording engineer/producer and then transitioning into film sound/audio post, the differences between the two (and the transition time) were far greater than I imagined/anticipated. As I said though, if the target for your feature is say Youtube then you can get away with almost anything, providing your dialogue is at least audible. But, if you have higher aspirations for your feature you're going to need to apply standard production and post prod sound equipment/techniques, which exist because they have proven to be the most reliable/efficient at achieving the required standards.

G
 
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