Where can I hire cast and crew that have no full time jobs that get in the way?

Sweetie · Oct 26, 2014

Perhaps I just need to write a much more ambitious script to get people attracted to it.

As someone else said, this isn't a great solution. More ambitious doesn't equate to an increase in quality. More often than not, it reduces the quality and appeal to an actor, though this will really depend on what you mean.

What you need is a great script. Something relatively simple that will attract people to the story. Think fundamentals. The Basics. Something fresh doesn't have to be ambitious. It just needs to be fresh and great.

If it was not that, what is it that I should put into a script that would attract people? Perhaps people would feel it is worth their time if it was a bigger more ambitious project. Or whatever is, I need to write a script people will say yes to, if the script is the problem.

I haven't seen your script, so I have no idea whether the problem lies within your script. I suspect it'll be a combination of a few things.

Is this really necessary and has to be done this way, or can it be avoided? If not, does anyone have any advice for raising extra money for the flights?

It's far from necessary, and in all honesty, when you start looking at investors, they're looking at ways to reduce the costs (and mitigate risks), not increase them. They'll hear your story of why and run for the hills.

Hmmmm, I think if I was H44, I'd take that deal no questions asked. I wouldn't even care what kind of script it was, mine or a random one that Sweetie pulls out of nowhere. With the amount of times you post simple questions H44 this would be the most beneficial learning experience you could possible have. Plus, you might just get something out of it that will recover some of the investment? XD

It was a pony up or shut up kind of thing. I'm sick of his excuses.

If he wants to take me up on the offer all the better for him. I have a very good b grade genre ultra low budget script ready to go that fits this budget range to a tee, but I'd rather not waste it on a h44 project, but if it has to happen, it has to happen. I have the key parts of the team already in place. I even have actors capable of playing the roles wanting to be a part of it (but that's not the hard part as we we all know). Obviously it'd be better if there was a way to get a larger budget for it to get a name attached, but if that's not in the stars, it's not in the stars. If it was greenlit by him this week, it'd be the obvious project to make happen unless h44 had something he'd prefer or better ready to go.

harmonica44 · Oct 26, 2014

I will consider the offer. But for my next short film, you know what I could do... instead of trying to look for new actors and crew, I could try to get the old ones back I worked with before. I could try very hard to convince them that even though my first short was a disaster, that this one will be better, and I've learned a lot since. I will try.

SkyCopeland · Oct 26, 2014

harmonica44 said:
I will consider the offer. But for my next short film, you know what I could do... instead of trying to look for new actors and crew, I could try to get the old ones back I worked with before. I could try very hard to convince them that even though my first short was a disaster, that this one will be better, and I've learned a lot since. I will try.

Or you could PROVE to them that you've learned since then by actually having something to show them. Do the deal with Sweetie, do the script Sweetie already has ready to head to production. Be a producer or something. Actually get hands on learning. Then when you return you'll not only be able to SAY you've learned a lot since then, but you can show them you've learned.

Plus if you say you've learned, convince them, do it, and fail again. That's straight burning bridges.

harmonica44 · Oct 26, 2014

Yeah I know it would be burning bridges. Well I have learned a lot from other people's shorts. However none of them finished post production unfortunately accept for one, so I do not have much to show them at this point unfortunately. But all I did for those shorts was record sound, so I don't know if that will convince them that I have improved, director wise.

But before I try to talk them into coming back for another, I am going to write a better quality script.

It is possible to make movies here thought I guess, cause one filmmaker I have helped with projects is able to make one short film per month. One per month she is doing! She said that her trick is to use friends instead of looking for actors. However, my friends tell me not do to that, cause her movies are completely unwatchable. The acting is is godawful and the post production is completely rushed and terrible, they say. They say not to do what she does with friends, or without hiring post production pros, cause my shorts will be unshowable to anyone after so what's the point? But I will still shoot a short with firends now and do the post myself, just to do something. Maybe some good will come of it, I just won't show it to anyone I want to do business with , if the acting is bad and post production is bad.

About five years ago, things were going much better. I had actors who wanted to work with me, and crew, and a guy who is good with VFX even. It's just their day jobs and families often got in the way. I understand that they may choose a movie over their job if the script excites them enough but I think there is more too it than that. Filmmaking does require a lot of time and sacrifice, that a lot of people are just not willing to do it seems. For example, my fiance threatened to leave cause she says I spend too much time and money on a career goal that is likely going to go nowhere. A lot of people may not be able to accept a fiance leaving them, if that's what perhaps it came too, which is why they lost interest. Not sure if it had come to that with them as well. But I told myself long ago, that I could not let anyone stop me, if I am to get things done. However I will keep at it, and I just reposted another casting call to try again.

Sweetie · Oct 27, 2014

instead of trying to look for new actors and crew, I could try to get the old ones back I worked with before.

Oh boy, he cracked the code... develop a relationship with the cast and crew so you're able to rely upon them in the future. See, you are capable of learning something ol chap!

Never be afraid of burning bridges. You have to do what's right for you (preferably in the long run). Everyone does that. It doesn't mean dump everyone who you've built a relationship with. Some people are meant to come on the ride with you, some are not.

About five years ago, things were going much better.

Dude, you're 5 years in? I'm almost at my 2 year mark. Get a move on.

convince them that I have improved, director wise.

This may be your problem. I see you attempting to do everything on the forum. You're spread too think and I personally don't think you're suited for the role. Every man and his dog wants to either be a director or an actor. Most aren't cut out for the task. It may be time to sit down and think, good, long and hard whether directing is really your thing.

WalterB · Oct 27, 2014

harmonica44 said:
..............

If I throw all the money I can in the can to hire pros, I can maybe come up with $30,000, but I would want to make it really really good, for that price.......

That's ambitious.
Can you manage to plan the whole 2 weeks of shooting in a realistic way, way ahead of shooting?
Meaning: can you plan it in 10 to 12 days, because you probably need 2 spare days, because you never planned something like this?

For the right price I'm for hire

But I'm not sure I would dare to.

However, if you would hire a few other cracks from IT...

harmonica44 said:
.........So it seems there are people out there where filmmaking is their only job, I just need to find more like that, if possible.

Yes, they are out there.
They are here on IT as well.
I'm one of them. Doing corporate stuff mostly.

Your problem isn't only that you are a 'trainwreck'.
The casting call you once posted was so boring I'm not surprised nobody felt inspired to react.

Sweetie said:
.................... or will run for the hills..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geHLdg_VNww

I just couldn't resist

WalterB · Oct 27, 2014

The main problem is you still have nothing to show.

Try it once: make a short in 1 month. With friends, for fun and experience.
A while ago I gave you 3 simple ideas to practise and have something to show.
The past yearsmany have given you a lot of advice.
One of the most repeated ones: finish something!
And: Make something real simple first.

All free gifts presented on a silver plate and still you choose to not listen.

Sweetie's offer is great.
H44 are you aware that december/january is summertime down under?

WhiteOpus · Oct 27, 2014

H44, do you have a link to one of your shorts? I am asking purely out of curiosity because I've never seen anything you've done on this site. You post a topic about a new, different project nearly every month and yet nothing ever seems to get done. This is your number 1 problem. You can't expect to get gigs without some kind of body of work. You can't expect to get a body of work without finishing projects. You can't finish projects without understanding why previous ones failed in the first place (which is why I think the "one short a month" thing is important for you, specifically). When I google your username, all I get is indietalk and your youtube which has a variety of random 2 second clips of...nothing, really. :huh:

I am 1.5 yrs in and have completed 2 shorts, a few music videos and several interviews (and I STILL consider myself to be slacking). 5 years? Nothing?

link a short film please!

Sweetie · Oct 27, 2014

H44 are you aware that december/january is summertime down under?

Yep. Nice and hot weather we're already having. Not sure if the Canuck could handle the heat here, nor the scantly clad ladies.

harmonica44 · Nov 4, 2014

That's true, I am willing to burn bridges a second time, but this time I would definitely make sure to hopefully hire the best crew first. I think the reasons why that short film sucked with those actors is cause I didn't get a good audio engineer or a good colorist, so it ended up sounding and looking like crap. Even the ones I did get, still cost quite a bit of money.

For the next project, I would like to hire better people, but even really good audio engineers can charge up to $500 per minute of the project, and that's where things get complicated. I want to call the actors back and let them know it was a matter of not having the right post production people on board, but this time I can find better ones. I should probably find better ones first though, before I say that, and hope they will do that good of a job though when the project is finished

Otherwise that will be burning bridges. I am also trying to learn as much of sound mixing on my own, but as I was told on here before, it's best to hire someone else to do it, if you want really good results. However, for the current short film I actually have a lower budget than that one before with the actors, so would this mean it's a lost cause on trying to get them back, if the sound and color is likely to be worse, if I hire people with lower rates?

WalterB · Nov 5, 2014

harmonica44 said:
...... I think the reasons why that short film sucked with those actors is cause I didn't get a good audio engineer or a good colorist, so it ended up sounding and looking like crap.....

I think it is because you had no experience and made some mistakes yourself.
And that's alright.
As long as you learn from it.

The sound probably sucks because the recordings aren't as good as they should.
The colors probably look like ' crap' because you didn't manage the colors in camera to start with and/or the lighting didn't help and/or you just had to shoot a lot at night with all the noise and light problems you were told you would encounter and/or you had unrealistic fantasies about how fantastic it would look/sound and attract attention from Hollywood.

It's always easy to blame others.
It's more difficult to analyse what you can do better next time to make the footage better to start with.
And the latter is why almost everyone told you: make something small to test the water, make mistakes and learn fast.
Or at least faster than you do now with your 5 second testvideos that don't give you any experience except with how the menu of your camera works.
Making something really short first could have made a difference.
(And I'm not talking about that time you shot some random shots around town and put them together in a random order. I'm talking about 2 minutes length maximum story. Or imitation of a commercial (with a different pay off?) if you can't think of any ideas.)

Finish your short, organize a night with cast and crew.
Tell them it hasn't turned out to be the bockbuster you were hoping for and watch it together.
Have some laughs, discuss what went wrong and what went well.
Tell them you learnt a lot from it (although that could be a lie).

Close that chapter.
And see who wants to join you in your new project.

AudioPostExpert · Nov 5, 2014

harmonica44 said:
For the next project, I would like to hire better people, but even really good audio engineers can charge up to $500 per minute of the project, and that's where things get complicated.

No, a "really good" audio post service could easily cost 10 times the figure you have quoted ($5,000 per film minute)! How appropriate it would be to spend $500 per min on audio post depends on a number of factors which only you (or whoever is acting as the Producer) can decide but from the little I can tell from your postings, probably half or even considerably less than half the figure you have quoted would be more appropriate.

harmonica44 said:
I think the reasons why that short film sucked with those actors is cause I didn't get a good audio engineer or a good colorist, so it ended up sounding and looking like crap.

You're of course free to think whatever you want but that's not what I think or at least not entirely what I think! There does certainly appear to be some red flags with the audio post and colourist personnel you hired, according to what you have stated/described. However, it also appears that at least part of your woes are self inflicted, due to poor project management (the materials you supplied, your directing, expectations, etc.) and it's possible that your project management is largely or even wholly to blame! In other words, it's very unlikely IMHO that spending say 10 times more on some of your post-production personnel will result in a 10 times improvement, it's possible it may result in only a marginal improvement!

At the risk of self promotion, nearer the appropriate time, you should provide me and Alcove with the necessary details and ask us to give you a quote for the audio post, or at least an estimate of what you should be looking to spend.

G

Sweetie · Nov 5, 2014

this time I would definitely make sure to hopefully hire the best crew first.

Oh boy. Hopefully? Best? First? Definitely?

I think the reasons why that short film sucked with those actors is cause I didn't get a good audio engineer or a good colorist

Well that's finally big of you to recognize your mistakes.

Even the ones I did get, still cost quite a bit of money.

Can you imagine how much the ones you really need will cost?

Otherwise that will be burning bridges.

Why's that?

I am also trying to learn as much of sound mixing on my own

That's great news. Get better and better. Learn to capture great sound.

would this mean it's a lost cause on trying to get them back

What did they say when you asked them?

the sound and color is likely to be worse, if I hire people with lower rates?

It depends on what you call lower rates. You can get good independent graders for $80/hr who have their own setup.

harmonica44 · Nov 5, 2014

Actually you're right, I shouldn't blame others. It was my fault for hiring them and perhaps I got too hasty and should have waited for to find someone better, that wouldn't have cost as much. The problem with sound is that everything sounds too close up. For the close up shots, it works but for the OTS, mastershots, and shots of people walking further into the background, but yet you still here their voices as if they are right next to you, it's not good.

There is no distance or direction in the dialogue, it's all close up sounding. That's the main problem, and I could have used better Foley. For the short I am trying to arrange now, I actually have a lot less money, so I would have to wait till I find post production people who are talented but would want to to do it for an even cheaper price.

As for my first short, the actors have asked for a copy on DVD ages ago, but I never gave them since I could not get the sound right. I have given myself a goal to try to make it as best I can by the end of this month. Then I can give them a copy and hopefully they will want to work with me again, on something better. However, if I cannot get the sound and color better by this month, I thought I would just give them the movie anyway. My fiance argued against that and said it would be even worse for the actors if they saw the movie not properly completed and I should hold off till I find someone good, but I fear the more wait, the less of a chance I have of working with them again.

I think the sound is fixable, I just need to give it direction and distance somehow, if that will do it, along with better Foley.

For my current project I am arranging to shoot, do you think that I should try to create distance while on set? Should I instruct the PSM to try to match the distance in the camera, with the distance of the mic, audio distance sounding wise? A PSM might find this annoying that he/she has to try to estimate the distance every new shot set up, but since I am not experience with mixing in post, should I try to cheat it on set? I was thinking of doing the same thing in camera too. Shoot with a very specific picture profile, so I won't have to grade so much in post. I already tried a lot of picture profiles, and found at least one that looks cinematic enough, that I don't think I would have to do any grading. But are making these decisions on set, rather than in post a good idea for someone who is inexperienced, since there is no going back?

Sweetie · Nov 6, 2014

Actually you're right, I shouldn't blame others. It was my fault for hiring them

Yep. It's always the bosses fault.

I could have used better Foley

There are Foley libraries.

the actors have asked for a copy on DVD ages ago, but I never gave them since I could not get the sound right.

It's better to give them the best you can give them rather than have them think you completely stiffed them.

said it would be even worse for the actors if they saw the movie not properly completed and I should hold off till I find someone good

Sometimes it's right. It depends on the actors. Some really desperately need footage for their show reel, some just want some better stuff to replace other "less quality" stuff.

I am not experience with mixing in post

Learn it or find someone who can do it for you.

But are making these decisions on set, rather than in post a good idea for someone who is inexperienced, since there is no going back?

Another one of those "How long is a piece of string" question. It depends on the people, the project etc. You need to test what works for the look you need. If the test comes that it works, then do it. If it doesn't work, then guess what.... it doesn't work.

WalterB · Nov 6, 2014

harmonica44 said:
..................

For the short I am trying to arrange now, I actually have a lot less money, so I would have to wait till I find post production people who are talented but would want to to do it for an even cheaper price.

.............

Catch 22 alert!

People may want to help you out if you can show them something...
So you need to have something to show to persuade people easier.

How long will your short be?
How many locations and how many days of shooting?

AudioPostExpert · Nov 6, 2014

harmonica44 said:
There is no distance or direction in the dialogue, it's all close up sounding. That's the main problem, and I could have used better Foley. For the short I am trying to arrange now, I actually have a lot less money, so I would have to wait till I find post production people who are talented but would want to to do it for an even cheaper price.

So you're going to wait until human society evolves past the current rules of market forces? The gamble with that strategy is; how do you know it will happen in your lifetime and how do you know if shorts or films will still exist?

If you want to actually try and make something half decent before the world evolves into a utopian society then you've been given plenty of advice (and I've given you an option for audio-post) and now you need to start using/practising that advice and options! If you can't get it how you want (sound and/or picture) then post a clip, ask for suggestions and try out some of the advice you're given. Continuing to ask vague questions, not providing examples nor all the facts and then making up inappropriate or just plain incorrect rules and/or assumptions just results in you going round and round in ridiculous circles and is wasting both your time and ours!!! At the rate you're going, by default you're not going to finish anything until society evolves into something else anyway!

harmonica44 said:
For my current project I am arranging to shoot, do you think that I should try to create distance while on set?

No! Alcove and I have explained why not previously. If you don't want to take our word for it, why don't you do a test and see for yourself what happens? In your case though, maybe you should just go for it! Sure you'll piss off your PSM, and indeed all your other cast and crew when they discover that your short is un-finishable/unusable but then on past experience that's what they'll be expecting anyway!

G

harmonica44 · Nov 24, 2014

Okay thanks, you're right, I'm not going to cut corners, I will everything as properly as I can.

I will also give the actors I worked with before a DVD copy of the film, even though it's really late, and not properly completed, audio or picture wise.

Two of the actors live in Vancouver now, and they keep telling me that they want me to come down cause they are interested in a feature length script of mine, but I never went since I was not ready of course. They said that met lots of actors and crew along the way, and will get them interested as well. Can I keep them interested for doing it in the future do you think? I will give them a DVD copy as well, and hopefully that will help, or they will see it and completely change their minds likely.

That's another reason why I have been trying to get the audio and picture right for a long time, and putting it off. But I will send them what I have and hope that they can still stay interested for years later in the future, hopefully, till I am ready.

But I feel that they are waiting on me, to gain experience, and will loose interest if they have to keep waiting and find other paths to go. They have even already, since I never sent them a copy, but I will now.

As far as finding actors here, the main problem is still everyones' regular jobs getting in the way, delaying a lot. I will keep trying. To answer WalterB's question, the current short I want to shoot is only 1.5 pages long, and I hoped to shoot it in two days. Hopefully one but I said two in the adds, just in case.

Sweetie · Nov 24, 2014

I'm not going to cut corners, I will everything as properly as I can.

For some reason, I'm not convinced. Cannot put my finger on it. Anyone?