New To Forum And DSLR's Confused And Need Guidance

Hey all,

New to the forum and wanted to sign up to get help from who I would consider to be the most knowledgeable people about DSLR and video. I've been doing documentary (automobiles mostly) for a while now and use a GoPro for a lot of work. I can get some amazing footage from it but it always has that "video" feel and I want that "cinematic" look that I've only found with real lenses that you can adjust. When I first started looking I came to different Indie filmmaker forums and kept seeing the Canon 60D as a great workhorse. I've hardly seen anything bad about it at all and so I set my mind on getting it. I walked into the store and then was told by a seemingly knowledgeable person that I "should go with" the T5i since I'm doing mainly video. So I had to start all over with comparisons which leads me to where I am now, confused on what to get.

I've narrowed it down to 60D, T5i, and as of yesterday the 70D. I know it seems like a no brainer on the 70D but when I started I did have a budget lol, but if that is the best option so be it. I'm not trying to produce the next Hollywood movie, I just want to do my auto documentaries and interviews to get that professional feel and honestly I feel like any of these 3 will work, but I'm having trouble with a couple of things and thought you might be able to help. Here are my thoughts:

The 60D: (999 with kit lens, 699 body only)

Awesome workhorse, all round high quality great camera, just old and not too many features.

The T5i: (699 with kit lens, 699 body only <- wtf? :) )

Awesome camera that is full of features. Same quality output as the 60D but with touch screen, auto focus for video (which sucks imo) and stero mic vs. mono on the 60D. Problem is it just feels "cheap" to me. I mean for 700 bucks it shouldn't feel like a camera half that price should it? I don't know maybe it is just me, but it feels chinzy in my hands and that just plain bothers me, but maybe it shouldn't?

The 70D: (999 body only, not sure with kit)

The "Mac Daddy", basically if the 60D and T5i had a baby and the kid got all the rugged genetics from the 60D and all the amazing features of the T5i. Seems like a no brainer, but would like to spend as little as possible if it is a smart thing to do in this case.

I honestly can't decide, I have walked into the store twice to buy, once the 60D and next the T5i and both times just couldn't pull the trigger but I'm not sure which to get, then the damn 70D got thrown in the mix yesterday :grumpy:

Anyway any help from you knowledgeable people would be much appreciated. EVERY question I asked the lady behind the camera at the dedicated camera store in town knew nothing about either one and even less if possible about anything video from a DSLR, it was frustrating which lead me here. I feel like I know just about everything on the 60D and T5i there is to know and just can't make a decision, I'm throwing the 70D in there b/c it is only a few hundred more.

I should add that I could care less about the "kit" lens, as I'm getting a 50mm 1.8 prime as my main documentary lens if that matters at all.
 
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What's up Doc? :D

The 60D is old news now, I wouldn't be looking at them. The 700D is awesome, and the 70D tops it of course. If you really want a Canon and can afford the 70D then I doubt you will regret it.

If you think that the 700D feels a bit cheap, but is otherwise what you want, then have no fear! I've put my 600D through hell and had no problems with build quality so far. While the 70D has got better (ie some) weather sealing and will be a much more reliable bet for outdoor work, I have put my 600D through heavy rain and snow on many occasions with no troubles beyond the usual fogging and slippydippyness. The plastic isnt really a problem (with typical knocks and dings, it's actually less likely to break and dent than mag alloy), it can just feel a little cheapy.

Unless you're really fixed on the Canons you mentioned, you might want to wait for some of the GH4 boys to come along next and sell them to you. :P
 
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They'll all give you what you're looking for once you learn how to use them - the differences are primarily related to build quality. Only you can decide if that's worth the extra cost.

While the 50/1.8 is a great lens price/performance-wise, I personally don't recommend it for video work - the focus ring is too small, too close to the front edge of the lens, and not particularly smooth.

So personally I'd suggest you'd be better off with either the T5i or 60d and the 50/1.4 than with the 70d & 50/1.8 for roughly the same overall cost.
 
Ohh I forgot about the lens. Yeah, 50mm on crop is a horrible fixed focal length to be stuck with. Nice for portraits but just too tight for the majority of work (especially if shooting indoor), and as IDOM mentioned above, the ergonomics are pretty bad.

I'm not sure how the newer Canons handle it, but there are models that feature a 3x digital crop. This means you can buy something like a the Tokina 11-16 f2.8, and it will effectively allow you to shoot from 35-50mm when the 3x mode is engaged. This mode also very effectively eliminates sensor moire as there is no scaling going on as when shooting normally.

It's a bit more than the 50mm 1.8 of course, but is generally much more versatile for vid.
 
60D user here. Still use it as my primary camera. I like a lot of features on the 60D- manual audio controls and swivel LCD screen, both of which you don't see a ton of on DSLR I don't think. At least not from the era the camera came out.

Truth be told, there will be a lot of people with a lot of different ideas on what you should get and you could pretty much go with most of them. Most all DSLR cameras have good image quality. Some are definitely better than others but none of them will hinder your work necessarily.
 
Hi Auto_Doc - welcome to the forum!

Sadly, all of the cameras you're looking at are from the previous generation of interchangeable lens video cameras - with relatively low resolution, 8-bit consumer codecs recorded at relatively low bit rates - and no high frame rate capability for slow motion.

You can make great videos with them, but they will limit you.

Here is 200mbps 1080p from a more modern camera side by side with the 70D's 90mbps 1080p:

http://youtu.be/Z8Jv4Kd2bJs

Note the difference in resolution.

Most modern cameras also shoot at higher frame rates than Canon DSLRs (e.g. 60fps, 96fps and higher).

Here is some slow motion footage shot at 96fps by a more modern camera:

http://vimeo.com/97096167

http://vimeo.com/109268864

Sadly, except for the $12,000 Canon 1D C, Canon DSLRs are all limited to 30fps.

If it fits your budget, you might want to look at this more modern camera, the $1640 Panasonic GH4.

This camera has 4 times the resolution of the cameras you're looking at, it has multiple slow motion frame rates, a built-in intervalometer for timelapse, hours of uninterrupted continuous recording (Canon DSLRs have to be restarted after 30 minutes), a 3.5mm headphone jack and an electronic viewfinder you can continue using while you're shooting video (DSLR viewfinders are blocked by the mirror when you switch to live view).

Hope this is helpful and good luck with your decision!

Bill
 
Wow, thanks for all the help guys. I went to the camera store again, for about an hour, I know they think I'm a mental patient. I pulled them all down and I just kept going back to the 60D as the one that "felt right". I'm not even sure how to explain it, and maybe I'm biased on a subconscious level b/c that is what I originally wanted, not sure, but it felt great. The T5i, while feature rich and a cool touch screen, again felt cheapy to me, but that is just my opinion. The 70D felt good too and had all the features but again at a cost. I realize the 60D is old, and any of them will do what I need, so maybe I just need to buy the one that "seems' right, which is the 60D.

The 60D body only is 699.00. Is this a reasonable price to pay? I just don't want to see it offered at a huge discount in a month around the holidays, so thought I'd ask and see what you guys thought?

Also I should have mentioned the 50mm will not be my only lens, I have an 18-55 and a 75-300 that are my Dad's and he never uses so I can use them whenever I want if that matters. I like the 50 1.8 b/c it is cheap and does a beautiful job in an interview type situation with that soft background, just love it.

Sadly, except for the $12,000 Canon 1D C, Canon DSLRs are all limited to 30fps.

I thought the 60D did 60FPS at 720???
 
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Oh, also wanted to mention I went to a used camera store in town that is well known for having a huge selection and was able to find an ok T4i, they wanted almost 400 for it with body only and had the "white" grip problem. The also had a used T5i but they wanted 600 for it, I guess to me it just doesn't make sense to pay that much for something used with no warranty when a new one is just another 100 bucks does it? I figured if I could get a killer deal on a used one I'd go for it but don't see how these used cameras are worth 80%+ what the new ones are, baffles me unless cameras are different than other things maybe?
 
Also I should have mentioned the 50mm will not be my only lens, I have an 18-55 and a 75-300 that are my Dad's and he never uses so I can use them whenever I want if that matters. I like the 50 1.8 b/c it is cheap and does a beautiful job in an interview type situation with that soft background, just love it.



I thought the 60D did 60FPS at 720???


You got lenses? Ahhhh, in that case, forget my earlier advice to listen to the GF4 boys, and just get the the cheapest Canon body you can find with a flippy-outy screen (anything from the 600D upwards pretty much). They all produce the same/similar imaging regardless of model (same sensor, codec etc), and will be dead/redundant in a few years regardless. You can shoot pretty much anything with those two lenses, though the max aperture sucks on both of them, and so lighing will be even more important to you.

Digital Rev prices are around £300 for something like the 600D. As you've already got lenses and appear to be in the hobbyist demographic, I really don't know what would top this set up for the money?

And yes, they all do 720 60fps btw. Bruner, like many other more serious videographers too, like to insist on 60fps 1080p as a minimum.
 
You got lenses? Ahhhh, in that case, forget my earlier advice to listen to the GF4 boys, and just get the the cheapest Canon body you can find with a flippy-outy screen (anything from the 600D upwards pretty much). They all produce the same/similar imaging regardless of model (same sensor, codec etc), and will be dead/redundant in a few years regardless. You can shoot pretty much anything with those two lenses, though the max aperture sucks on both of them, and so lighing will be even more important to you.

Digital Rev prices are around £300 for something like the 600D. As you've already got lenses and appear to be in the hobbyist demographic, I really don't know what would top this set up for the money?

And yes, they all do 720 60fps btw. Bruner, like many other more serious videographers too, like to insist on 60fps 1080p as a minimum.

Great, glad i mentioned it then. I mean technically they are my Father's but I can use them whenever I want if I need a specific shot I guess. Based on your advice then (cheapest body), my plan then would be to purchase the 60D (699) and a 50mm Prime 1.8 and call it a day. I think I would like the touch screen just b/c I've gotten use to it with my phone/ipad etc. but today in the store I loved the dual wheels, man I was whizin' away on that thing lol. I just think that in the long run I'd feel better about the purchase of the 60D b/c it is more of a "pro" type feel if that makes sense than the Ti series, even though they whip its ass in the features dept. lol.

and will be dead/redundant in a few years regardless.

Do you mean they just wear out or there is some time date function in the firmware like in CO2 monitors? Sorry if that is a dumb question but wasn't sure what you meant exactly?
 
Shutters and buttons etc do wear out, though a lot slower if used mainly for video rather than stills (they do last a loooong time though).

I was mainly alluding to the fact that camera bodies will age faster and breakdown quicker than your lenses or any other piece of kit, and that your first camera will be a learning curve, where regardless of model chosen you will not get the best out of it before it goes. They become outdated and superseeded very quickly by neweer models, and so you will likely be wanting/needing another in a few years anyway.

If shooting DSLR's, it generally makes more sense to but the best glass you can afford (as it will likely outlast even you), and the cheapest body you can find that meets your requirements. In 1-3 years time when you really want that new model, you will have wasted less that way. They drop value VERY quickly once used, whereas decent glass holds it well.

If you could explain what sort of thing you plan to shoot with it, then people here will be able to pinpoint features for you and help whittle it down. The only real developments above the flippy-outy screen of the 600D, are things like the touchscreen and AF tracking, and so for run and gun docu and journalistic shooters these things are very handy, whereas if you shot more creative films or fixed scenes such as interviews then you might not be fussed by them.

I agree about the build quality feel, though I persnally wouldn't let that sway my decision. Ergonmics are king no matter the format or shooting styles (weather sealing is a different matter of course). Once you've had it in hand/use for a while it will feel like home regardless.

You have seen DRTV's now-famous durability tests of two cheap DSLR's I trust? :D You might be surprised at the results....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1tTBncIsm8
 
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What's up Doc?

You really had to go there, didn't you?

1bugs-bunny-whats-up-doc.png
 
The T5i does have the newer processor compared to the 60D. Does that matter? Not saying it does. But maybe others, including Canon, would say it does.

I'm surprised and confused to hear you say the T5i only has auto focus. I guess that's because of the lens. But, if you got a lens that allows manual focus, then I would think you'd have manual focus. If you spend less money on the T5i, then maybe you'll have the money to buy the Canon 50mm 1.4 USM lens, which allows manual focus. Not that the 1.8 isn't a good value, minus manual focus, if that's the case.

Someone said you'll have a very tight field of view with a 50mm lens. But, if that's a problem, you could get a 28mm or a 24mm lens instead, and with the crop, you'll be at the "normal" field of view.

I'm not surprised to hear the 60D feels better. On the other hand, does shooting video require good ergonomics? If you're shooting hand held, yeah, I guess it does. But if you're shooting on a tripod or with some stabilizer, then I would think not.

Without looking it up, if the 70D and the T5i share the same sensor, then I would be reluctant to spend a lot more money on the 70D. But that's not being familiar with what other features the 70D might have.
 
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Canon 50mm 1.8 is seriously good value for money, around 120e new.

Really tricky to use tough when shooting inside, but still recommended.

If you have the lenses available, then basic Canon DSLR should do the trick. I am using 550d + magic lantern software for feature purposes. Just remember to think the audio aspects as well, they are really important.
 
Auto_Doc - before you pull the trigger, a couple of caveats on the 60D:

- The camera has a 12 minute continuous recording limit. If you ever plan to record an event that lasts longer than 12 minutes (e.g. a play, a speech, a concert), you'll have to restart the camera.

- It has a problem with patterned objects such as shingled roofs, brickwork and striped or patterned fabrics called "moire", as seen here in side-by-sides with the Panasonic GH2:


http://vimeo.com/21962491


http://vimeo.com/20565849


The 70D isn't much better:


http://vimeo.com/73429088


If you can live with the recording time limit,moire challenge, lack of HD 1080/60p for slow mo, and no intervalometer or wi-fi - it's a great starter camera.

Best,

Bill
 
Thanks guys for all the help! Well I made my decision, and I did go for the 60D just b/c that is what felt "right" to me. I also got the 18-135mm lens and the 50mm 1.8. I also have access to a 75-300 telephoto lens if needed. In the end I felt like I had to live with it so I got what made me have warm and fuzzies in the store lol. Thanks again for all your help and I look forward to being around here and learning and posting some of footage when I get it edited!
 
lol Warm and fuzzy is good. :) Glad you're happy with your new camera, and I look forward to seeing you around. :)

Just please, whatever you do, dont shoot parrallel dolly shots of tiles or bricks at the exact distance and angle required to cause moire. ;) It's all very well if you're trying to force a fault for the sake of example (as above), but the reality of it is far from what people like to make out. I have shot DSLR video for a good while now, and NEVER had a problem with it.

If it happens, just move the camera back/forward a little bit, or you could change your angle or focal length slightly too. Or engage your video crop mode (no loss of IQ) to eliminate it too. The GH boys have enough (genuine) advantages over DSLR shooters as it is, without people needlessly giving them even more ammo.

(trololol) :D

Welcome to IT. :)
 
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lol Warm and fuzzy is good. :) Glad you're happy with your new camera, and I look forward to seeing you around. :)

Just please, whatever you do, dont shoot parrallel dolly shots of tiles or bricks at the exact distance and angle required to cause moire. ;) It's all very well if you're trying to force a fault for the sake of example (as above), but the reality of it is far from what people like to make out. I have shot DSLR video for a good while now, and NEVER had a problem with it.

If it happens, just move the camera back/forward a little bit, or you could change your angle or focal length slightly too. Or engage your video crop mode (no loss of IQ) to eliminate it too. The GH boys have enough (genuine) advantages over DSLR shooters as it is, without people needlessly giving them even more ammo.

(trololol) :D

Welcome to IT. :)

Thanks a lot AD, will do. I think I remember seeing a video on that, it was on a roof, definitely annoying but since the 70D does it too and I wanted a Canon I'll have to live with it. Hopefully it won't be an issue, does the T5i do that as well, just curious? Thanks for the welcome.
 
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