Self-Distribution & The Internet

Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC said:

For independent filmmakers, self-distribution on the internet should be a serious consideration.

Click to expand...

Truth!!

The genie is out of the bottle, just ask anyone in the music industry. Those who best adapt to technology's changes are the ones who will thrive.

I'm gonna be paying some serious attention to this thread, because I hope some practical advise/discussion will follow...And in regards to that, is there any way to edit the title of the thread to include "boobies"? I think that would generate more attention.

Midnite

basic math

Let's look at some basic math skills to see what this involves. On the surface everything is great and will work out perfectly, but using 3rd grade math skills, we can at least approach these ideas with some reality.

Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC said:

For independent filmmakers, self-distribution on the internet should be a serious consideration.

Click to expand...

Yes it should, but realize that the numbers are just not there for movies that cost more than $10,000 to make. If you want to sell a few hundred, even a thousand or two DVD's, then self distribution is the way. Even at the best of days, cost per disc (DVD-R, DUPLICATION, not REPLICATION) is around $2.00-$2.50 each ($.45 per disc, $.65 ink for print on disc, $.45 per case, $.59 per color insert). So if you sell 2,000 DVD's at $10 each = $20,000 (-$4,000 in materials), you can make a profit of $16,000.

Now you could consider the DVD-On-Demand services from Createspace or Indieflix, etc. but their cost versus your profit is much higher, and you will only make $1-$3 per disc selling on Amazon.com, so you would never have to make the discs or print them out, but you will also only make $2,000-$6,000 in profit from selling 2,000 DVD's.

$16,000 profit or as low as $2,000. Now that sounds like a lot of money to someone in college or just out of high school, but that does not take into account the cost of making the movie, the marketing involved in selling 2,000 DVD's and certainly does not account for the time in making the discs. If I were 21, this would be an entrepreneurial opportunity and a perfect part time job doing what you love. I make movies and TV shows for a living and that's just not enough, especially for a feature length movie.

This is my perspective, but any which way you go with self distribution is generally not going to be worth the work and effort put in for me, but then my budgets tend to be higher. This is solely for my own point of view and goals, so I cannot speak as to someone else's, nor can I say that my way is better or worse than anyone else's.

I recommend people making movies with a budget of under $10,000 - Self Distribution is the way to go. You have several opportunities to make your money back. For me, $10,000 barely even covers the cost of food for a feature length movie's shoot.

15 shooting days x 3 meals a day x crew of 10 + cast of 15 @ $7 per meal = $7,875.00 and this does not include CRAFT SERVICES. What about days when you have extras, a bigger crew, more shooting days? Cost of food can easily exceed $10,000 and that does even include the costs of tape, equipment rentals, lights, props, costume, location rental, etc. etc.

If food is $7,875, then you would need to sell 790 DVD's at $10 to cover the food (excluding the costs of the discs themselves, so take on another 20%). For anyone who has ever actually tried to sell their movie on a DVD, especially in the land of internet piracy, you will know that it takes a lot of time and effort to move that much product. If you haven't ever done it, then you have no idea what it entails.

Modern Day Myth Prod. LLC said:

Since some movies are pirated by distributor employees. Self-distribution on the internet even cuts down on the chances of piracy.

Click to expand...

Once a DVD is in anyone's hands, the risk of piracy is equal. The only difference is WHEN it gets pirated. If it's in an employee's hands, it can hit the Internet BEFORE it's for sale via retail. Once a DVD is out there in anyone's hands, it can be pirated.

Sonny, I agree with everything you said in your post.

That being said, I think for the most part, 9 out of 10 filmmakers on this forum are indeed independent in every aspect of filmmaking.

Also, with saying that I think there is a very strict strategy in taking this all in.

Speaking to the independent crowd there are a couple key factors.

1. Story - The story has to be compelling. Has to be a good story. Don't write yourself into a corner where it's going to be expensive. The story doesn't necessarily have to be simple but your approach should.

Take Shane Carruth for example. Dude wrote a complex story and took a simple approach. Set pieces were simple. Characters were simple but the story was complex as hell.

2. Cross your fingers and hope for the best. Make the best damn 10,000 dollar independent film that you can. Make it perfect and just hope the right eyes will see it.

Wow, is my post ever pointless.

And I agreed with most of your post, and it wasn't pointless. The only thing I respectfully disagree with is this

TheOpusFuller said:

2. Cross your fingers and hope for the best. Make the best damn 10,000 dollar independent film that you can. Make it perfect and just hope the right eyes will see it.

Click to expand...

Crossing your fingers is a superstition and hoping someone important will see it will end with crushed dreams. When you've made the amazing $10,000 movie, work your ass off to make sure people see it. Promotion, film festivals, press releases, internet workings, and whatever else it takes to GET THE MOVIE SEEN. That's of paramount importance. No one will be interested if you aren't your movie's #1 fan and any film, even if it was $300 needs to be promoted or no one will see it, especially people of power.

To me finishing the movie is only the half way point of the job. The marketing and promotion take a lot more effort, time, and sometimes money, than the production itself.

I'm sure Opus knows this, and this reply is not a slam on his post, as much as it is a reminder to anyone reading these threads about the importance of promoting your work.

sonnyboo said:

And I agreed with most of your post, and it wasn't pointless. The only thing I respectfully disagree with is this



Crossing your fingers is a superstition and hoping someone important will see it will end with crushed dreams. When you've made the amazing $10,000 movie, work your ass off to make sure people see it. Promotion, film festivals, press releases, internet workings, and whatever else it takes to GET THE MOVIE SEEN. That's of paramount importance. No one will be interested if you aren't your movie's #1 fan and any film, even if it was $300 needs to be promoted or no one will see it, especially people of power.

To me finishing the movie is only the half way point of the job. The marketing and promotion take a lot more effort, time, and sometimes money, than the production itself.

I'm sure Opus knows this, and this reply is not a slam on his post, as much as it is a reminder to anyone reading these threads about the importance of promoting your work.

Click to expand...

For sure. I agree with the above. I guess my "Crossing your fingers" comment was the cherry on top of the Sunday.

I agree that you need to hustle. Hustle is key. Personally I think Social Media is key when it comes to promotion. Although it's only a fraction. But nonetheless it is an important part of the process in hitting that online audience...

But, in the end, I always come back to people NEED to write a story that is DAMN good. That's why I can't grasp the threads on here where people rush a project just to get it done with hopes of getting something out of it. I don't care what argument you throw at me, it's not going to change my opinion. If your actors can't find the time or can't work around your schedule..... .Get different actors.... and so on.

Again, in my opinion. If a nobody 24 year old, 28 year old or 40 year old tossed a script on my lap that was titled "inception" you damn well better believe I would devote every moment of my free time to the project if needed.

I am one to believe there is always a way to work things out.

Personally, I have been working on my Science Fiction story since January. I had the basic original element years ago, but it wasn't until this year that I started working out the details and crafting a story.

I plan to take the Independent Route (because that's the only route that I feel that is available for me at the moment). I already purchased my camera. Lenses and equipment will soon follow.

I have been working on my marketing plan of attack for the last year which I want to keep under wraps until the time is right. I have a few tricks up my sleeve. But my main trick is the story. I believe that the story alone will make people interested enough to want to contribute regardless of what that contribution is.

TheOpusFuller said:

I am one to believe there is always a way to work things out.

Click to expand...

Amen brother.

Best of luck and here's hoping it all works out.

I don't think self-distribution should be your 1st choice. I think if that's your plan, you're not dreaming big enough.

Festivals. National distribution. In my opinion, that should be every indie filmmakers' goal. And, yes, I'm talking the ultra-low budget indie filmmakers that Opus believes 9-of-10 people on this forum represent.

Sure, it's rare, but it happens every now and then. Why not try for the best possible scenario? But of course be prepared for a back-up plan (like self-distribution).

TheOpusFuller said:

That's why I can't grasp the threads on here where people rush a project just to get it done with hopes of getting something out of it. I don't care what argument you throw at me, it's not going to change my opinion. If your actors can't find the time or can't work around your schedule..... .Get different actors.... and so on.

Click to expand...

Of course, I don't really need to change your opinion, but why wouldn't you at least have an open mind to hearing the response to your very broad-sided statement?

Have you worked out the financial logistics of shooting your planned feature? We're talking about a budget of less than $10,000, right? That money doesn't go far. Forget hiring SAG actors. You're going to have to get talent that's willing to work for free, or at least for next-to-nothing.

I mean no disrespect to anybody on here who fits this category, but there's a reason actors who will work for free are willing to do so. Ditto that for actors who are willing to work for peanuts.

HOWEVER, there's one noteable exception -- one group of people who are willing to work for (basically) nothing, yet still might be very talented -- college students.

College theater students are passionate about their work, ambitious, they have fun with what they're doing, and they're willing to do it more for the experience than the money. Obviously, they're hoping for more money later. But none of that is a reflection of their talent-level. Some of them are AWESOME.

Before I even had a concept for a story to tell, I knew it had to involve college-aged characters. I knew I'd be able to find a talented cast who could do terrific work with my material, and they'd be willing to work for the tiny amount of money I can afford to pay them. I also knew that they'd have some free-time in the Summer.

My battle-plan, from the very beginning, was to shoot a feature during the Summertime, using college theater students as my cast. Say what you will, but I think that's a pretty-damned good strategy, and I feel like it's paid off.

Let's say I followed your logic. What if I decided not to rush the project? Then, when am I going to shoot this thing? Do I have to wait a full year, until next Summer, to be able to hire college students? F that! While you're waiting for the conditions to be just right, I'll be working on my second feature. And the conditions are never going to be just right. Sooner or later, you're going to have to make some concessions.

The Internet offers such tools as search engines, tags, and social networks to narrow the scope for say, fans of science fiction to find movies that are to their liking.

These tools, plus language interpurters make it possible for fans of say vampires, robots, and super heroes from any country to find movies to their liking.

Selling on line makes these movies available to them too.

Cracker Funk said:

I don't think self-distribution should be your 1st choice. I think if that's your plan, you're not dreaming big enough.

Festivals. National distribution. In my opinion, that should be every indie filmmakers' goal. And, yes, I'm talking the ultra-low budget indie filmmakers that Opus believes 9-of-10 people on this forum represent.

Sure, it's rare, but it happens every now and then. Why not try for the best possible scenario? But of course be prepared for a back-up plan (like self-distribution).



Of course, I don't really need to change your opinion, but why wouldn't you at least have an open mind to hearing the response to your very broad-sided statement?

Have you worked out the financial logistics of shooting your planned feature? We're talking about a budget of less than $10,000, right? That money doesn't go far. Forget hiring SAG actors. You're going to have to get talent that's willing to work for free, or at least for next-to-nothing.

I mean no disrespect to anybody on here who fits this category, but there's a reason actors who will work for free are willing to do so. Ditto that for actors who are willing to work for peanuts.

HOWEVER, there's one noteable exception -- one group of people who are willing to work for (basically) nothing, yet still might be very talented -- college students.

College theater students are passionate about their work, ambitious, they have fun with what they're doing, and they're willing to do it more for the experience than the money. Obviously, they're hoping for more money later. But none of that is a reflection of their talent-level. Some of them are AWESOME.

Before I even had a concept for a story to tell, I knew it had to involve college-aged characters. I knew I'd be able to find a talented cast who could do terrific work with my material, and they'd be willing to work for the tiny amount of money I can afford to pay them. I also knew that they'd have some free-time in the Summer.

My battle-plan, from the very beginning, was to shoot a feature during the Summertime, using college theater students as my cast. Say what you will, but I think that's a pretty-damned good strategy, and I feel like it's paid off.

Let's say I followed your logic. What if I decided not to rush the project? Then, when am I going to shoot this thing? Do I have to wait a full year, until next Summer, to be able to hire college students? F that! While you're waiting for the conditions to be just right, I'll be working on my second feature. And the conditions are never going to be just right. Sooner or later, you're going to have to make some concessions.

Click to expand...

<EDIT> ahhhh forget it! <EDIT>




And sunny. Thanks same to you, pal.

Good luck with your production Optimus Fuller.

Making a feature is a big undertaking.

TheOpusFuller said:

I believe that the story alone will make people interested enough to want to contribute regardless of what that contribution is.

Click to expand...

This thought has resonated with me for hours today. I've been thinking about it and this is the single most true statement that is also the most underrated. It's the reason Quentin Tarantino even has a career. His writing is so good, big name actors will work for peanuts to get a chance at his material. A great story and good writing will get people to do amazing things.

TheOpusFuller said:

<EDIT> ahhhh forget it! <EDIT>

Click to expand...

I envision you beginning to type a response to tell me how misguided my theories are, or something, but then halfway into your first sentence, you were like, wait, haven't we had this discussion already?

Cheers to you, Opus. Different indie production strategies aside, of course I wish you the best on your production.

sonnyboo said:

This thought has resonated with me for hours today. I've been thinking about it and this is the single most true statement that is also the most underrated. It's the reason Quentin Tarantino even has a career. His writing is so good, big name actors will work for peanuts to get a chance at his material. A great story and good writing will get people to do amazing things.

Click to expand...

"Winter's Bone" and "A man from earth".....End of discussion as to what can be done with a good story & minimum money.

The scripts I enjoy writing are character driven, so zombies & slashers & stuff are in a league that needs totally different marketing strategies.

And this thread is about marketing in the internet world....At least I think it is

I stumbled onto this dude's Site yesterday, and will probably be soaking it in for a while:

http://www.peterbroderick.com/index.html

SonnyBoo's thread was a cold hard reality check..Thanks bunches!

The FunkMeister likes to dream big, so don't wake him up just to tell him he's snoring.

F7ck a duck, I wanna dream big too!!! I want that frickin' beach house!!!...on the other hand, I live in North Carolina and have already gone through my "Pack it up and move to where the action is" phase in an earlier lifetime.

So let's just assume that we're capable of getting film made on a (insert $# here) budget...If you've done that, without a marketing strategy from day one, then watch out for the piss dripping down from the leaves of the tree you just relieved yourself on.

I'll admit that the coffee kicked in a little bit ago, and insert the "Ramble Alert Warning" here.

I've mentioned in another thread that I'm strictly a writer...Far from Hollywood success...But I've got 2 features and a short coming out soon, so it's time for the Marketing Strategy to kick in because, frankly, the companies that made the films have limited experience.

The golden goose of finding a distributor may not even be the best route these days(see the above link), at least not for my scripts. So I've had to identify their individual markets.

Film #1....A family friendly, Lifetime Channel tailored drama based on a true story of a 3 year old girls battle with cancer and the affect her courage had on total strangers....This has a built in word of mouth network due to a website that allows families to share the "Angel's Journeys" for free....So DVD sales in a quantity that even SonnyBoo would approve of are a definite possibility....By luck(if you call it that), one of the young actresses has a family connection to The Enzian Theater in Orlando. The Nezian is one of the Host theaters of the Florida independent Film Festival....We missed the submission deadline, but because the story has a Florida connection, the Enzian has offered us the theater for a "Family & Friends" Premiere weekend.....Through another stroke of luck(yeah, right) one of the real life people the story is based on has a best friend from childhood who is now the station manager of the CW Network's number 1 ranked affiliate for three years running(out of 205 stations) This friend has agreed to air the film(assuming that it doesn't totally suck) during their regional programming hours.....So this film, "The Shoebox" will manage to find it's own way in the world....Probably not big $$, but enough to have made it financially worthwhile to the investors($50,000).

The 2nd feature, is a character driven comedy that may actually turn out to be funny...During a small sneak preview of a rough cut, the laughter was coming equally from the 50 year old African Americans and the 20 year old slackers....So this one is gonna be taking up my energy for the next year....I've already posted on another thread about using college film nights to help spread the word.

Along with the colleges, we're working on a website.....Finding a distributor would still be way too Kewl, but it's not likely without any "name" actors....So I'm figuring on at least a year to build up a rolling underground word of mouth network...Updates as they come....

The 3rd film, a short, was chosen by a local Meet-Up Group as their first production. Why??? Because it also has a built in fan base....It's based on an Emily Dickinson poem(in the public domain)....Can you say Facebook?...I'm friends of Emily on three different Sites who are waiting for the link when it's done.

It's a short, so there's no money anticipated. But because of Ms. Dickinson's fan base, there's hope for decent exposure.....But speaking of $$...I live in North Carolina(through no fault of my own), and by golly, this is one of the alternating years where the NC Council for the Arts is offering a $10,000 Grant to help developing writers working on a script....The short will be done in the next coupla weeks. The application is due in September....I'll be submitting the script, plus the DVD, with the request for the grant so that I can turn the short into a feature length script.

I don't have the time, nor energy, to waste whining about how far from Hollywood I live, or how impossible the frickin' gatekeepers are....All I can do is focus on writing the best damn story I can, and then working my ass off to promote it, since so many other talented people have been foolish enough to bring them to the screen.

Back to the zombies and slashers and stuff.....Your turn....what's your next real step?

Midnite

Cracker Funk said:

I envision you beginning to type a response to tell me how misguided my theories are, or something, but then halfway into your first sentence, you were like, wait, haven't we had this discussion already?

Cheers to you, Opus. Different indie production strategies aside, of course I wish you the best on your production.

Click to expand...

No. Actually what I wrote was, I'm a writer. I'm a director. I am the creator. I am the one who creates the conditions. Not the other way around.

But either or, of course I wish you the best on your production as well. We're all creating something when it comes down to it. That's a win on its own!

And Sonny,
Great point and well said. I just hope my beliefs are correct! Some could look at it as a weakness while others could look at it as a strength but I'm a sucker for story...

Having a budget of less than 10K is key if you're not going to go all out. As I've said before, the 'middle ground' area is much harder to profit from, for many reasons.

And there is no excuse not being able to find talented actors for free or peanuts...you can do it. And you don't have to visit your local college campus (in fact, I'd save that for last). Most college kids are green behind the ears and have wet thumbs...err...scratch that, reverse it. As long as you're not in LA...you can find very inexpensive talent. I'd much rather hit up local theaters for talent than a college campus--much more dedication, and usually much more experience. Also...you're probably not shooting a coming-of-age film...college age isn't your only age group you'll be requiring...not if you want to be taken seriously. Having older people in your film will give you production value...use it...not just for production value, but because an audience doesn't always want to stretch the imagination when watching a character on screen.

It's all about how creative you are with your money, and how inexpensive your cast and crew can be gotten. And you don't have to spend a zillion dollars on food. You can buy in bulk, set up a snack table, and have an individual cook or cater for pretty cheap if you look around. And also bear in mind that if you don't want to put a second morgage on your house, keep your script simple, with a manageable cast and crew. It can be done. You don't need to make your micro-budget films look like Sparticus with a hundred extras on set everyday.

Self distro works...if you go out there and social network, send out EPKs, and work it work it.

You can also let a distributor do it...our films are typically less than 10K and we always get national distro. Just make sure you know how to use that 10K...you have to be technically slick, creative with your money, and hire really talented actors...if you don't have these things, you probably won't be picked up (by anyone worthwhile anyway). Seek out distributors...look at their catalog. Send them your film and see if they bite. If they do, hear what their offer is (it will probably suck...but nowa'days all deals suck).

I've mentioned this before...if you keep your budget down (however you do it) you can sometimes break even or profit off of a weekend screening (four shows)...we did it with our last film which had a budget of 7K. It also got picked up for national...which means the rest is profit and gravy.

You can all do this...just know how to use your money, and don't skimp on talent or production value just because you don't have a big budget. Keep the script relatively simple, and find talented people who believe in the project.

Just don't expect to get picked up, or sell a million copies if your acting sucks, or your lighting is terrible, or your sound is amateur...or if all of the above is included with a shitty, boring, done-a-million-times script...if you want to play with the big dogs, you have to have the basics down...then add your own style and flare...don't be afraid to go outside the norm and shoot something people haven't seen before...and never skimp on actors...bad acting is the bane of most indie films (along with bad sound).

Then social network like mad.

M1chae1 said:

And there is no excuse not being able to find talented actors for free or peanuts...you can do it. And you don't have to visit your local college campus (in fact, I'd save that for last). Most college kids are green behind the ears and have wet thumbs...err...scratch that, reverse it. As long as you're not in LA...you can find very inexpensive talent. I'd much rather hit up local theaters for talent than a college campus--much more dedication, and usually much more experience. Also...you're probably not shooting a coming-of-age film...college age isn't your only age group you'll be requiring...not if you want to be taken seriously. Having older people in your film will give you production value...use it...not just for production value, but because an audience doesn't always want to stretch the imagination when watching a character on screen.

Click to expand...

You and I have had a similar conversation in a different thread, and I actually think we see pretty much eye-to-eye on this -- it's just that some of our particulars are different.

You're a weekend warrior. That's great for you. I'd have to start a new career to do that (I'm currently bartending). Plus, there is the different strokes for different folks thing. I'm just not really interested in doing the weekend warrior thing. It works for you and a lot of other people. It's not my cup of tea. I'm really only interested in full-blown intensive (continuous) shoots. With that in mind, you and I have to take different things into consideration, when casting.

I'm paying my actors all that I can afford to pay them. I wish I could pay them more, but I'm completely emptying my bank account to shoot this thing. For each lead and supporting role, they are being paid a flat rate of $250/wk. My two lead actors have completely dropped everything for 1 full month to shoot this thing. Think of the actors and actresses you've worked with -- how many of them would be willing to drop everything for an entire month, for less money than they could make working at McDonald's? Most of the actors and actresses you work with probably have not just careers but families. Dropping everything isn't an option.

So, I think you can see how the fact that I wanted to shoot continuously, not just on weekends, makes our situations completely different. For my tiny-budget movie, wanting to wrap it in less than a month of shooting, college actors were really my only option.

That's why I wrote a story age-appropriate for them.

Only thing you said that I actually disagree with is your assertion that the talent-level is lacking. I didn't just get the first student who fell in my lap. This is a talented group of people. Last year, our team won the best acting award (amongst many others) in our citie's 48HFP, and to be honest, they really didn't have any competition. I've been quite lucky to be able to work with this wonderful cast; if you know how to look, there are some very good actors and actresses in college.

Cheers!

TheOpusFuller said:

No. Actually what I wrote was, I'm a writer. I'm a director. I am the creator. I am the one who creates the conditions. Not the other way around.

Click to expand...

Hey, get your own idea for a movie.

I don't have much to add to this discussion, as I haven't even made a feature to be distributed. I can say, however, that I like the idea of self-distribution. Considering I'm involved from the point of creation of my movie through its construction, I'd hate to just hand it off to someone else in the last leg of the race.

The folks Michael works with give me hope for self-distribution. There really needs to be in place some kind of network of indie productions with indie theaters throughout the country. Maybe there is, and I haven't heard of it? I do live in the uncultured Dirty South...

I have been able to recover between a third to a half of my investment into my movie just by accounting for everything on my taxes. Refunds help.

How do you come up with the $10,000 figure?

After seeing the movie SALT, I'd have to say strong marketing and a strong story are the two most important elements for making a profit in a movie. Story matters more than great action.