Audio for Portable Film-Making (Run-and-Gun)

Hello everyone,

I am looking for advice on audio equipment to purchase for my GH3 (Thanks to everyone who helped guide me towards that purchase). I’ll be doing run-and-gun filmmaking in China in a month on vacation.

Needs:
-Good dialogue sound (for both individuals and conversations between multiple people)
-Portability
-Good ambient sound when needed

Current options I have been looking into:
Lavalier mics
Shotgun mic (Rode Video)
External recorder (Zoom H1/H4N, Tascan DR-40, Tascan DR-100)

I don`t mind splurging on multiple options if they`re inexpensive (cheap but good lavalier mics for example)

I will be shooting documentary style in China, but when I return from there it will mostly be narrative.
In China I will be with one other person who can assist with the audio, and back at home I can always find another person to help out with the sound capture.

I don’t have a fixed budget, just looking for the best value.
Thanks in advance!
 
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Are you going to have audio assistance, or will you be doing it all by yourself? Are you doing documentary work or narrative work? The answers to these questions will make a huge difference.
 
The audio guy in the thread will be able to give better advice than I can but I'd like to comment on the external recorder option.

Yes, you need an external recorder. I've used the H4N and Tascam DR-100. The Tascam is great as you can adjust the left and right channels individually, while the H4N only allows you to adjust both channels simultaneously.
 
Are you going to have audio assistance, or will you be doing it all by yourself? Are you doing documentary work or narrative work? The answers to these questions will make a huge difference.

I will be shooting documentary style in China, but when I return from there it will mostly be narrative.
In China I will be with one other person who can assist with the audio, and back at home I can always find another person to help out with the sound capture.
 
Is your other person in china going to be an on-camera interviewer type, or behind the scenes just helping out? If they're off camera, probably want to have 'em swing a boom, if they're on camera, a good hand-held mic (think 5 o'clock news man on the street interview) would probably be best. Lav's could be good, but take a decent enough amount of time that it's infeasible for running around to many locations with many people in front of the camera.

I'm not "the sound guy" in the thread, but that's my $.02, for what its worth. :)
 
Is your other person in china going to be an on-camera interviewer type, or behind the scenes just helping out? If they're off camera, probably want to have 'em swing a boom, if they're on camera, a good hand-held mic (think 5 o'clock news man on the street interview) would probably be best. Lav's could be good, but take a decent enough amount of time that it's infeasible for running around to many locations with many people in front of the camera.

I'm not "the sound guy" in the thread, but that's my $.02, for what its worth. :)

My companion will be on-camera, not necessarily interviewing..

We're going to be documenting our VACATION to china, including our own voices. I'm thinking the boom mic might be a bit tedious for my companion to carry around, he's just coming with me for vacation not to shoot a film :) (although I would certainly be interested in having one around at home)

I don't mind if there is minor background noise in the shoot, as long as the voices are clear. More importantly, it should be useful afterwards when I am filming narrative as well.

I've tried the GH3 internal mic but haven't been impressed at the sound quality (background noise, dialogue not very focused).

I am wondering if it is sufficient to film with an external recorder such as a Zoom H4N, which sounds interesting to me because of the portability aspect. I hear it is good with ambient noise, but I don't know how it performs at focusing on dialogue when outside like a mono shotgun or boom mic would.

Using the GH3 internal mic for ambient noise and a Rode VideoMic attached for dialogue also seems interesting to me.

I like the idea of LAVs since they're not cumbersome but I wouldn't be able to use them for filming dialogue on people walking around town.
 
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I don`t mind splurging on multiple options if they`re inexpensive (cheap but good lavalier mics for example)

Good and cheap are mutually exclusive, you can't have both.


You said in your first post you would be

...doing run-and-gun filmmaking in China (while) on vacation.

To me that implied you would be making a run & gun style film during your vacation, not documenting your vacation.


I'm thinking the boom mic might be a bit tedious for my companion to carry around, he's just coming with me for vacation not to shoot a film :) (although I would certainly be interested in having one around at home)... I don't mind if there is minor background noise in the shoot, as long as the voices are clear. More importantly, it should be useful afterwards when I am filming narrative as well.

It is very difficult to get even passable dialog without booming a mic, and as you would be making a narrative film in the future, a boom would be included in the sound package for your narrative project. The aiming of the mic determines the signal to noise ratio (SNR or S/N-R), or the amount of dialog versus the amount of ambient sound. If the mic is not pointed towards the mouth of the person speaking the more background noise you will have and the less intelligible the voice(s). You can't defy the laws of physics.

I've tried the GH3 internal mic but haven't been impressed at the sound quality (background noise, dialogue not very focused).

Mounting a mic like the Rode VideoMic on your camera will give you very nice ambient sound, but that's about it, as a camera mounted mic will have the same problem with lots of background noise and unfocused dialog, it will just be more detailed BG noise and unfocused dialog.

I like the idea of LAVs since they're not cumbersome but I wouldn't be able to use them for filming dialogue on people walking around town.

Lavs are very good, but have their own special problems. If you want to hide it you'll have issues with clothing noise, among other things. You'll also need a wireless system, and reliable wireless is pricey. You will also have the issue of legal frequency usage, which varies from country to country, and can even vary from city to city. This makes a frequency agile (meaning frequency selectable) wireless system very desirable when moving from place to place.


As I preach here on IndieTalk and other places so frequently decent sound takes decent gear, some skill and some planning.



Here's my $1,200 buying guide. Select one from each category:


Shotgun mic kits will have the shotgun mic, boom-pole, shock-mount and simple wind protection (softie).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461493-REG/Rode_NTG_1_Shotgun_Condenser.html


Hypercardioid mic:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/359043-REG/sE_Electronics_SE1A_SE1A_Small_Diaphragm.html


Audio recorders:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821260-REG/Roland_R_26_R_26_6_Channel_Digital_Field.html


Headphones:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/49510-REG/Sony_MDR_7506_MDR_7506_Headphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/507447-REG/Sennheiser_HD_25_1_II_HD_25_1_II.html


You'll also need cables, cases, battery packs and other miscellaneous items - about $200+.


This would make up a passable entry level prosumer production sound kit for narrative filmmaking.


So think it through a little more and come back with more questions.
 
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Good and cheap are mutually exclusive, you can't have both.


You said in your first post you would be



To me that implied you would be making a run & gun style film during your vacation, not documenting your vacation.




It is very difficult to get even passable dialog without booming a mic, and as you would be making a narrative film in the future, a boom would be included in the sound package for your narrative project. The aiming of the mic determines the signal to noise ratio (SNR or S/N-R), or the amount of dialog versus the amount of ambient sound. If the mic is not pointed towards the mouth of the person speaking the more background noise you will have and the less intelligible the voice(s). You can't defy the laws of physics.



Mounting a mic like the Rode VideoMic on your camera will give you very nice ambient sound, but that's about it, as a camera mounted mic will have the same problem with lots of background noise and unfocused dialog, it will just be more detailed BG noise and unfocused dialog.



Lavs are very good, but have their own special problems. If you want to hide it you'll have issues with clothing noise, among other things. You'll also need a wireless system, and reliable wireless is pricey. You will also have the issue of legal frequency usage, which varies from country to country, and can even vary from city to city. This makes a frequency agile (meaning frequency selectable) wireless system very desirable when moving from place to place.


As I preach here on IndieTalk and other places so frequently decent sound takes decent gear, some skill and some planning.



Here's my $1,200 buying guide. Select one from each category:


Shotgun mic kits will have the shotgun mic, boom-pole, shock-mount and simple wind protection (softie).

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551607-REG/Audio_Technica_AT_875_Shotgun_Microphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/461493-REG/Rode_NTG_1_Shotgun_Condenser.html


Hypercardioid mic:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/867157-REG/Avantone_Pro_CK1_CK_1_Small_Capsule_FET_Pencil.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/359043-REG/sE_Electronics_SE1A_SE1A_Small_Diaphragm.html


Audio recorders:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/832911-REG/Tascam_DR100MKII_DR_100mkII_Portable_Linear.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821259-REG/Tascam_DR_40_DR_40_4_Track_Handheld_Digital.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/821260-REG/Roland_R_26_R_26_6_Channel_Digital_Field.html


Headphones:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/49510-REG/Sony_MDR_7506_MDR_7506_Headphone.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/507447-REG/Sennheiser_HD_25_1_II_HD_25_1_II.html


You'll also need cables, cases, battery packs and other miscellaneous items - about $200+.


This would make up a passable entry level prosumer production sound kit for narrative filmmaking.


So think it through a little more and come back with more questions.

Thanks Alcove,

This is really helpful to me. Sorry about the confusion. The equipment I am likely to purchase for the vacation will be limited to the audio recorder, and the rest of the components when I get back. I am wondering how it will sound on its own in documenting a vacation vs using onboard GH3 sound. I will purchase a windscreen for it.

Shotgun mics: What is the difference between the NTG-1 and the VideoMic? I did a bit of browsing on the Internet and found that the VideoMic pro is a good option when connecting the mic to the camera, but that's about all I know (http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=3281).

Hypercardioid mic: Didn't know about this term either, this is like a shotgun mic but less directional? So good for dialogue but with some ambient noise in the front, I assume (http://homerecording.about.com/od/microphones101/bb/Mic_Patterns.htm). In which situations would you be using this type of mic?

Audio recorders: I am interested in the Tascam DR-40 and the DR-100. What are the differences between them significant to filmmaking? One point of interest to me would be the difference in both in terms of recording with the recorder on its own, for times where I would not be leisure filming (vacation). Here is an article I found that likes the DR-40 for all of the extra features it has but laments the noise with low-output external microphones (http://transom.org/2012/tascam-dr-100mkii/).

Headphones:

I already have a pair of studio recording-quality headphones (Audio Technica M50), I'm assuming this is appropriate.
 
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The equipment I am likely to purchase for the vacation will be limited to the audio recorder, and the rest of the components when I get back. I am wondering how it will sound on its own in documenting a vacation vs using onboard GH3 sound. I will purchase a windscreen for it.

I would recommend the Rode VideoMic; it will sound A LOT better than your camera mic. Just plug it in to your camera and don't worry about getting an audio recorder just yet. If you feel that you must get an audio recorder, get the Tascam DR-100mkII; it has more functions applicable to indie filmmaking than the DR-40.

Shotgun mics: What is the difference between the NTG-1 and the VideoMic? I did a bit of browsing on the Internet and found that the VideoMic pro is a good option when connecting the mic to the camera, but that's about all I know.

The Rode VM is NOT a shotgun (lobar) mic, it is a supercardioid mic.

Hypercardioid mic: Didn't know about this term either, this is like a shotgun mic but less directional? So good for dialogue but with some ambient noise in the front, I assume. In which situations would you be using this type of mic?

Here we get into microphone polar patterns, or how wide or narrow the mics optimum pick-up range. Shotgun (lobar) mics have a very narrow pick-up pattern.

mg19shotgunrotated.jpeg


It requires very precise aiming.

There are three (3) different "flavors" of cardioid mics - cardioid, supercardioid and hypercardioid. Each one has a progressively narrower pick-up pattern.

patterns.gif


Cardioids require less precise aiming, but will pick up a lot more background noise. A sort of rule of thumb for audio inexperienced low/no/mini/micro budget filmmakers is shotguns for outdoors, hypercardioids for indoors. Have you ever heard that hollow, roomy sound in l/n/m/m budget indie films? That's partly the result of poor aiming, but that hollow, roomy sound is significantly exaggerated when using a shotgun mic. It gets complicated, having to do with acoustics/physics, not to mention booming skills.


Audio recorders: I am interested in the Tascam DR-40 and the DR-100. What are the differences between them significant to filmmaking? One point of interest to me would be the difference in both in terms of recording with the recorder on its own, for times where I would not be leisure filming (vacation). Here is an article I found that likes the DR-40 for all of the extra features it has but laments the noise with low-output external microphones.

Let's face it, budget recorders have budget mic preamps, which can be noisy. The hotter (louder) the signal the less you will have to increase the gain of the mic preamps; the softer the signal the more you will have to increase the gain of the mic preamps, introducing more of the self-noise of the mic preamp.

I already have a pair of studio recording-quality headphones (Audio Technica M50), I'm assuming this is appropriate.

I wasn't thrilled with the ATH-M50; it's not bad, but not as "flat" as I would like, and I didn't find them comfortable. That's okay , I have big ears, so I find most headphones uncomfortable. The Sony MDR-7506 headphones are pretty standard for production sound work, and the Sennheiser HD 280 headphones are getting more popular, and I may get a pair - but only because the ear cups are larger and I find them more comfortable.


What I recommend that you do is pick up "The Location Sound Bible" by Ric Viers. It's a passable introduction to production sound and sound-for-picture in general. It should make some informative reading while you're on that long, long flight to China.
 
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I am wondering how it will sound on its own in documenting a vacation vs using onboard GH3 sound.

Alcove's answers are good and well worth digesting but he didn't specifically answer this question, so I'll chime in too. These (and all similar) recorders have two "features", both of which cause severe compromises:

1. They are cheap, built with cheap/low quality components. For example, a top quality stereo mic could cost 10 times more on it's own than the cost of one of these recorders including their stereo mics.

2. They are not specifically made for filmmakers. Musicians wanting to record a rehearsal for example and all manner of other general audio recording situations. Unfortunately, recording dialogue while filming is not a general audio recording situation, it's a very specific recording situation and requires specific equipment. The mics used for recording dialogue while filming, shotgun mics for example, are designed for this specific task and are appropriate for virtually no other audio recording tasks.

These same two points also apply to the onboard sound of cameras, except on cameras the audio components are even cheaper. Therefore you will generally get marginally better sound from one of these recorders + internal mics than from the onboard sound of a camera but it's still going to be unusable! Of course, because the recorder is independent from the camera you can get it closer to the subject and this will improve sound quality even further but still it's very unlikely to usable because the onboard (usually omni or cardioid) mics are still completely the wrong type for the job. So, unless you're OK with home video quality sound, you're going to have to use one of Alcove's suggestions (or something similar).

G
 
I would recommend the Rode VideoMic; it will sound A LOT better than your camera mic. Just plug it in to your camera and don't worry about getting an audio recorder just yet. If you feel that you must get an audio recorder, get the Tascam DR-100mkII; it has more functions applicable to indie filmmaking than the DR-40.

Alcove,

Thanks again for the feedback.

So, you`re suggesting that I get a Rode VideoMic instead of an external recorder, but you recommend that I use a hypercardioid for outdoors and shotgun mic for indoors in optimal scenario. I`m looking to purchase something that I will use in the long run, if I get the Rode it will be because I will be using it at home as well, so in what scenarios would the Rode be optimal for shooting? Since it is recommended to have external audio, I figured since I would be purchasing it anyways it would be good enough for the job.

Basically, I'm worried that if I get a hypercardioid mic later I will not be using the Rode, but I don't know much about the mics so I'll wait for your advice :)

Also, I am wondering whether I should invest in the VideoMic Pro or stick with the basic model. I like the lighter weight of the Pro version, but besides that I'm clueless :)
There is also a Stereo VideoMic, that I read is better for ambient sound but not as good for dialogue.
I will need wind protection as well, something that works well with the VideoMic.

I am also looking into the sound of the GH3, about AGC and what I need to fix audio in post.
 
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but you recommend that I use a hypercardioid for outdoors and shotgun mic for indoors

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

You use a shotgun mic outdoors, just like you use a real shotgun outdoors.

21Y4gB6WQ0L.jpg
11962358-large.jpg



You use a hypercardioid mic indoors. Sorry, no pictures with this one...:D


A shotgun mic has a narrow polar pattern; this "rejects" sounds from left/right/up/down. Outdoors can be VERY noisy - birds, traffic jets, etc. So if you can "narrow the focus" of the mic you will capture more dialog and less ambient noise - as long as you aim the mic properly. However, the design of the shotgun mic greatly exaggerates the echoes indoors.

Using a hypercardioid mitigates the exaggerated indoors echoes somewhat.

The key with all mics is precise aiming. The mic should be above and as close to the talent as possible, aimed at the notch of the base of the throat. This doesn't apply to your vacation, however.


You said that, while you are on vacation, you will not have any help at all, so I feel that the Rode VM would be more convenient for you than a separate audio recorder; just mount it to your camera with a hot shoe and go. Yes, it's a supercardioid, but as you will not have audio help it will do a much better job than the camera mic, be more forgiving than a shotgun, and, with an extension cable, can be used as an interview mic. It's a nice consumer mic and can take (reasonable) abuse, and you will not have to sync the audio afterwards. It will also provide nicer/cleaner guide tracks when you sync the audio when you work on your narrative projects.

If at all possible you should defeat the AGC on your camera; you'll have to ask the camera people how to do that.
 
BTW, B&H has the Rode VM with a windbuster for US$190, but only for a day or two.

Once again, thanks Alcove! I will check it out (I live in Canada though :P)
So it's not worth upgrading to the Pro?

I read a bit about the GH3 audio and it appears you can't disable the AGC, but you can set the recording volume to lowest which makes the AGC less of an impact (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?298574-Quick-Audio-Noise-Floor-Test). The Pro version has a +20 gain so you can boost the sound back to decent levels.

But if I'm going to feed the mic into an external recorder later then it doesn't really matter for the moment, I guess.
 
You would not be using the Rode VM when you shoot your narrative work except to get better quality for your guide/sync track(s) with your camera. The gear you would be using for your narrative projects would come from the list in post #7 of this thread where I gave you the equipment list for a prosumer sound kit. The choice to spend the cash on the Rode VMP is up to you.

There may be a hack that can disengage the AGC, but, as I said, you've got to talk to the camera types.
 
You would not be using the Rode VM when you shoot your narrative work except to get better quality for your guide/sync track(s) with your camera. The gear you would be using for your narrative projects would come from the list in post #7 of this thread where I gave you the equipment list for a prosumer sound kit. The choice to spend the cash on the Rode VMP is up to you.

There may be a hack that can disengage the AGC, but, as I said, you've got to talk to the camera types.

Gotcha, thanks
 
I ended up trying out both the Rode VMP and the Shure VP83.

My thoughts:

-The Rode sounds warmer and easier to listen to, but does not pick up as much detail
-The Shure has a scratchy sound that becomes slightly annoying to listen to. Sounds unprofessional.

If I could get rid of the edginess to the Shure sound in post I would pick it because of the added detail and durability over the Rode.

Can I fix this problem with the Shure sound in post?
 
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