Canon 5D mk II vs Blackmagic Cinema

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FilmQuestions

Hello!

I currently own a Canon 5d Mk II. I am about to set out shooting a film, which I hope will have some chance of a theatrical release.

I have an opportunity to buy an original Blackmagic camera (I believe the 2.5k Cinema) for a very reasonable price. Much lower than I have ever seen them sell used for...

Now I wonder... would it be any better to shoot on the Blackmagic rather than the 5D Mk II? Would it be worth a small investment into the Blackmagic or would I be better served spending the money on another piece of glass for the 5D mk II? It would be cool being able to shoot with 2 cameras if I needed to run a set up like that if I had both! :cool:

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and help.
 
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I'm just a noob observer, really, so keep that in mind.

But my first question would be: are you okay with a camera that is not user friendly?

I've never used a Blackmagic camera. But, from what I've read, here and elsewhere, the Blackmagic cameras are pretty much the opposite of user friendly, especially the first one they released.

Supposing that's true, are you aware of that and cool with that?

On the other hand, the Canon is almost the epitome of user friendliness, I should think. Which is not to say DSLR's don't have there shortcomings from a videographer's point of view.

There have been a number of threads about the various Blackmagic cameras. Just use the search function above and search for Blackmagic. I don't say that because of any unwillingness to answer further. But I'm not qualified to do so, anyway. And truly, you might find them very informative. I recommend doing so before taking the plunge.

Let us know what you decide.
 
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FilmQuestions said:
........... It would be cool being able to shoot with 2 cameras if I needed to run a set up like that if I had both! :cool:

.....
Click to expand...

There is a big change you need to tweak a lot to get the 2 cameras look the same.

Differences:
BMC: no changable battery inside
5D MkII: more aliasing and moire
BMC: creates larger files in RAW that need fast (raid) drives or working with proxies to edit: much better codec for grading.
5D MkII: better in low light situations. because it is full frame

The big question is:
what do you want your camera to be able to do? What do you really need?
 
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Please explain.
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Since you're asking that question without realizing that it's more important to explain what you need to achieve for your film and what you're trying to achieve. If you have to ask the question which camera is better for you, you're unlikely to have the skill for it to matter much either way. You're probably better off sticking with what you already have.

The Blackmagic camera is a good camera. It has issues, but it's still a good camera. It's more likely to give you a better image for the silver screen, but it's also more likely to get you in a lot of trouble. The mk2 is also a good camera. They're different. They both require a certain level of stuffing around to get the maximum benefit from either.

Assuming you're not bringing on a DOP (The real person you should be discussing this with), you really need to learn about these cameras yourself, so you can apply your knowledge best to the material you're shooting. There is no one camera that is best for all situations.

As Walter said:

what do you want your camera to be able to do? What do you really need?
Click to expand...

This is more important than what you asked.
 
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I guess I'm looking for the most "filmic" camera. I have made movies shooting 35mm and 16mm. On a budget, I made a lot of 16mm reversal films and am just getting into the digital world, so sorry for the digital newbieness. I can make film look beautiful, but making digital look like film is new territory for me!

Sounds like I will be well served with what I already have. It is actually not my camera, but I have full time access to a 5D Mkii.

I have been shooting 1920 X 1080 24 fps, which a DP friend of mine told me is "the glue" for the 5D MKII camera for blowing up the image later if needed. He told me even to 4K or film, etc. to definitely shoot at 24fps at 1920X1080.

I just read these articles though about shooting raw on the 5D MKII. Is this something any of you have experimented with?

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11205.0
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5419.0

My other issue about the 5D MKII is a stutter / jump that I get sometimes. I started a new thread about that here -- http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=57887

Thank you for your help and support fellow sight & sound friends.
 
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WalterB said:
There is a big change you need to tweak a lot to get the 2 cameras look the same...

5D MkII: more aliasing and moire
Click to expand...

If you tweak the 5D MKII to shoot RAW, would you get less aliasing and moire? Or... would you overall achieve a more "filmic" look in RAW? I am referring to the Magic Lantern software and links above :)

Thank you again.
 
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I guess I'm looking for the most "filmic" camera.
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The Arri's.

But seriously, this has been discussed to death on other threads. There are multiple variables with the camera being only one of those variables. Filmic is more a feeling than a particular picture. You'll find that lighting, shot choice, grading, sound, sound design, Foley, set design, costume design, blocking, motivated camera movement, performance, story and the list goes on and on. If you focus strictly on the camera for your filmic look, you simply won't achieve it.

Get all the other elements right, you'll find someone will shoot a more filmic looking film on their GoPro or iPhone than someone with an Arri and everything else done poorly.
 
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Sweetie said:
The Arri's.

But seriously, this has been discussed to death on other threads. There are multiple variables with the camera being only one of those variables. Filmic is more a feeling than a particular picture. You'll find that lighting, shot choice, grading, sound, sound design, Foley, set design, costume design, blocking, motivated camera movement, performance, story and the list goes on and on. If you focus strictly on the camera for your filmic look, you simply won't achieve it.

Get all the other elements right, you'll find someone will shoot a more filmic looking film on their GoPro or iPhone than someone with an Arri and everything else done poorly.
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the Arri Alexa? The price tag is used 40k? Dang, I could shoot on film for that much, which would end this digital mumbo jumbo talk!

I've been watching tons of camera tests on YouTube & downloading videos from Vimeo. Amazing that the 2.5K Blackmagic holds up to the Arri Alexa... for 39K less? https://vimeo.com/97169679

The Alexa does look better, but I wish they had compared the Arri Alexa to the Blackmagic 4K. Also, is there a thread on here that compares the BMPC to the BM 4K URSA? Does anyone know the difference between the Black Magic Production Camera 4k vs the Black Magic URSA 4k or can you point me to an article?

Yes, yes, I know that the gear doesn't make the film, etc. I have worked on many large budget films in different crew positions... have been at this for awhile, but just now thinking about switching to digital for an upcoming project... I like Dogma 95 & sure I could make a great film with a miniDV camera, but that's not what I am interested in discussing here. I am looking for a filmic looking digital camera (if it is less than shooting film) for an upcoming project.

Therefore, I really want to critically evaluate different cameras before deciding on something! Everything matters when making a film... and in the end, everything matters in the frame!
 
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FilmQuestions said:
I've been watching tons of camera tests on YouTube & downloading videos from Vimeo. Amazing that the 2.5K Blackmagic holds up to the Arri Alexa... for 39K less? https://vimeo.com/97169679!
Click to expand...

The thing is - whatever camera I shoot on, I'm going to do test and light according to the dynamic range I'm comfortable using with each one (note: the maximum dynamic range of a camera, and the dynamic range I'm comfortable using are not necessarily the same thing).

Realistically, in perfect, controlled conditions, where I can light effectively, and light 'to the camera' - I can get great results out of any camera.

It's when cameras get pushed, and in non-perfect circumstances that you really get to see the differences. I've seen A7s footage intercut with Alexas and F5s. Does that mean the image is as good as those cameras? No. But it 'holds up' well.

I think tests like the Zacuto shootout and others were designed more from a standpoint of 'Look how great you can make any camera look - therefore just pick a camera and start shooting'.
Instead many latch onto these ideas of 'The GH3 is almost as good as an Alexa' or similar.


In addition, there's data rates (i.e. file sizes) shooting raw, for example, the computer power needed to handle it all.... etc.
Assuming you're going to be one-man-banding the whole camera department, there's a lot more consideration than just the image. If you're not, and you're going to havea full camera crew, a DIT and Production is going to cover drives, then simply go for the best image in your budget.

Myu suggestion is: you already own a 5D. Why not download Magic Lantern (it's free), shoot some tests and see how you like the images, the workflow, etc.
If you're happy with it - great! If not, see if you can get your hands on the Blackmagic and do similar tests. Compare and see what you like better.
My annoyance with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera is the odd sensor size - where it's too big to use 16mm lenses, but too small to be able to find anything that's going to give you a decently serviceable wide lens.

FilmQuestions said:
is there a thread on here that compares the BMPC to the BM 4K URSA? Does anyone know the difference between the Black Magic Production Camera 4k vs the Black Magic URSA 4k or can you point me to an article?
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Which URSA are you talking about? The Production 4k and the cheaper URSA use the same sensor, so you will get basically an identical image - the only difference being in the two bodies. The more expensive URSA has a new 4.6k sensor, which is supposedly custom made.
 
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Amazing that the 2.5K Blackmagic holds up to the Arri Alexa... for 39K less?
Click to expand...

If you truly believe this is the case, then you might as well stick with what you already have. I suspect you're not going to notice the difference.

I have worked on many large budget films in different crew positions...
Click to expand...

Draw upon that experience and contacts to work out what's the best solution to your particular film.
 
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jax_rox said:
The thing is - whatever camera I shoot on, I'm going to do test and light according to the dynamic range I'm comfortable using with each one (note: the maximum dynamic range of a camera, and the dynamic range I'm comfortable using are not necessarily the same thing).

Realistically, in perfect, controlled conditions, where I can light effectively, and light 'to the camera' - I can get great results out of any camera.

It's when cameras get pushed, and in non-perfect circumstances that you really get to see the differences. I've seen A7s footage intercut with Alexas and F5s. Does that mean the image is as good as those cameras? No. But it 'holds up' well.

I think tests like the Zacuto shootout and others were designed more from a standpoint of 'Look how great you can make any camera look - therefore just pick a camera and start shooting'.
Instead many latch onto these ideas of 'The GH3 is almost as good as an Alexa' or similar.


In addition, there's data rates (i.e. file sizes) shooting raw, for example, the computer power needed to handle it all.... etc.
Assuming you're going to be one-man-banding the whole camera department, there's a lot more consideration than just the image. If you're not, and you're going to havea full camera crew, a DIT and Production is going to cover drives, then simply go for the best image in your budget.

Myu suggestion is: you already own a 5D. Why not download Magic Lantern (it's free), shoot some tests and see how you like the images, the workflow, etc.
If you're happy with it - great! If not, see if you can get your hands on the Blackmagic and do similar tests. Compare and see what you like better.
My annoyance with the Blackmagic Cinema Camera is the odd sensor size - where it's too big to use 16mm lenses, but too small to be able to find anything that's going to give you a decently serviceable wide lens.


Which URSA are you talking about? The Production 4k and the cheaper URSA use the same sensor, so you will get basically an identical image - the only difference being in the two bodies. The more expensive URSA has a new 4.6k sensor, which is supposedly custom made.
Click to expand...


Thank you so much ! I really appreciate your information! Wonderful to encounter a competent DP who has knowledge to share and a non-troll (unlike Sweetie) on this site :lol: Thank you again.

Is there an anti-aliasing filter that you recommend for the 5D MKII? Or does anyone out there have a recommendation?

Thank you again :cool:
 
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I would really like to try the Magic Lantern. It's supposed to be great. It's also supposed to be really, really unlikely, but I can't take the risk of bricking my camera. If you're using someone else's 5D, it might be best to get their permission first.

There is the Mosaic Engineering filter. I'd really like one of those myself. But I can't justify the expense ($365) for an add-on for a specific camera, and a discontinued camera, at that. If those caveats aren't a problem for you, I'm sure it would be really nice.

Canon 5D Mk2 Anti-Aliasing Wide Angle Lens Scenes

^ I think that's the old version. Version b corrects some shortcomings of the previous filter.

People are making some very beautiful videos with the Blackmagic cameras. You don't sound like someone who would be intimidated by them. So, like Jax said, you should try one out, if you can. It might be prudent to do so before buying though, if that's possible.

But if you do continue to use the 5D too, there are things you can do to get a more filmic look.

I'm no one to judge, but I really like this tutorial I found. I hope there are many other such tutorials out there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnL4Z0ebcBc

And a seasoned filmmaker like yourself doesn't need to see this one. But I think it's nice, so I'll post it too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jis97Eup9_E

Another thing you might consider (if you continue to use the 5D) is the Technicolor CineStyle Color Profile.

Here's an introduction. And here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrtemMGaj4g&v=3Wvya3nZr7w

I just installed it myself following that tutorial. I think it went well. I hope it did. Not sure I'll ever actually use it, though, since I still need to learn how to color correct and grade.

But there may be some debate about whether it really delivers what people want it to deliver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDzYFN62GVg

Hey, I think it's exciting that a film-filmmaker such as yourself is exploring digital filmmaking. Hope you have fun!
 
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FilmQuestions said:
Is there an anti-aliasing filter that you recommend for the 5D MKII? Or does anyone out there have a recommendation?
Click to expand...

No idea - I've never shot ML Raw on 5D, and to be honest have barely shot all that much on 5D anyway.


My feeling is - you should use what you know is reliable - both in terms of the camera system being reliable, but in regards to knowing what you can get out of it and 'relying' on the camera in that sense.

For example, I know what I can get out of an Alexa. I've used it many times and know it will give me great results. I know how I like to expose on it, where I like my exposures to sit, what formats I like to record in, what lenses I prefer on it etc. etc.

If I'm looking into a new camera system, I'm not going to hire it onto a production blindly - I'm going to test it thoroughly to ensure it's going to provide me with what I want. If I want to shoot anamorphic, or on lenses I haven't used before - I'm going to do camera tests to ensure I'm making the right lens choice for the production. In fact, even if I have used the camera/lens combo, I'm still just as likely to do tests with the Director so we can do a quick grade and ensure we like the look.

I'm taking my A7s out in a few weeks as a test for something bigger coming up - I know my A7s pretty well, but I want to make sure I can get exactly what I want out of it as a B cam before booking it on the job.

If you end up having to shoot H.264 on the 5D - at least you know what you're going to get. Go for the Blackmagic, or ML Raw + filter if it takes your fancy, but just make sure you test, test, test.
 
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richy said:
I've never used a Blackmagic camera. But, from what I've read, here and elsewhere, the Blackmagic cameras are pretty much the opposite of user friendly, especially the first one they released.
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Yeah, that's one myth that needs to die :)

The Blackmagic cameras are some of the simplest cameras out there from a configuration perspective. Let's take the Cinema Camera as an example:

2 resolutions: 2.5k and 1080p
3 ISOs: 400, 800, 1600 (hint, use 800 for *everything*)
3 Recording formats: RAW, ProRes, DNxHD
2 picture profiles: Video (Rec.709), Film (log)
5 framerates: 23.9, 24, 25, 29.9, 30
A choice of common shutter angles and white-balance presets

Apart from the audio settings (which are similarly minimalistic), that's pretty much it (you have peaking, zebras, frame guides etc.)

The reason people say the BM's are difficult to use is:

a) they're not used to shooting raw/log and *having* to grade their footage
b) they're not used to lighting their scenes

Assuming you can (or want to) do those two things then you'll get great results out of a Blackmagic camera. The 4k Production Camera is slightly different since its low-light performance is significantly inferior to the CC/PCC but that's the tradeoff BM made for its global shutter - it simply means your lighting is even more critical.

Seriously, I never change my settings other than to pick raw/ProRes - I expose to the right, use an IR cut/ND/SpeedBooster as necessary with my Sigma 18-35mm and get fantastic footage every time.

It boggles my mind that the same people that are flashing their cameras with Magic Lantern (which is unquestionably a great piece of software) have the idea that using a Blackmagic camera is some kind of uh... black magic :)
 
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Aegis said:
The Blackmagic cameras are some of the simplest cameras out there from a configuration perspective.
Click to expand...

COnversely, I find them to be too user friendly for me. When I first used the BMCC, it was before they even had a read out of what stop your lens was set to - I think the idea was you let the camera do all the work for you, and you don't even have to think anymore.

I also hate the ergonomics of all their cameras - though the new URSA mini seems to be an attempt to address that...
 
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jax_rox said:
COnversely, I find them to be too user friendly for me. When I first used the BMCC, it was before they even had a read out of what stop your lens was set to - I think the idea was you let the camera do all the work for you, and you don't even have to think anymore.

I also hate the ergonomics of all their cameras - though the new URSA mini seems to be an attempt to address that...
Click to expand...

Well, the firmware improved *dramatically* over the past year - just waiting for them to fix a stabilization bug they introduced in 2.1 and then the CC/PCC/4kPC are 'done' in my opinion.

As far as ergonomics go, well yeah - the CC/4k are kinda odd - not sure what they were thinking. But for narrative shoots they're fine - *love* my Pocket Camera though - with a Panny 12-35mm OIS and a Zacuto loupe it's hand-held bliss and the ultimate stealth camera (everyone thinks it's a POS point-and-shoot :D)
 
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Yup, BMD cameras have come forward in leaps and bounds with each firmware release.

If you've only seen early versions of it, you need to take a second look! Almost like an entirely different machine :-D
 
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WalterB said:
There is a big change you need to tweak a lot to get the 2 cameras look the same.

Differences:
BMC: no changable battery inside
5D MkII: more aliasing and moire
BMC: creates larger files in RAW that need fast (raid) drives or working with proxies to edit: much better codec for grading.
5D MkII: better in low light situations. because it is full frame

The big question is:
what do you want your camera to be able to do? What do you really need?
Click to expand...

This seems to be one of the biggest misunderstandings about the Blackmagic Cinema Camera.

The battery on the inside is a "hot swap" or emergency battery, it is not intended to be the main source of power on that camera. The camera is meant to run off of V-Mount or Gold Mount batteries, with the internal battery providing coverage if your battery dies during a shot, the camera doesn't just die in the middle of a take.

Think of it as a bonus battery, or a safety measure built in to the camera.
 
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