First Serious "Short"

Artificial · Mar 7, 2013

Decided to get outside and shoot something today since it was "nice" out (a balmy 38°F). This was my first time going for something cinematic, not just recording motocross. First time manually focusing. No tripod was used. No real story or idea behind it. Did it all as one take, walked inside, and started editing.

Things I know are wrong:
- continuity of character location in different angles
- opening focus was a fail
- worse feel to the end than I originally felt (Youtube cut off my complete fade to black and a bit of audio)

I'd appreciate some feedback on it. I can't wait to do something more serious.

Shot with a D5100 w/kit lens, recorded with VideoMic to DR-05.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f-7_QaDrZ0

wheatgrinder · Mar 7, 2013

You crossed the line with that one.. or did the actor turn around and walk back.

That is a great example of what breaking the 180 degree rule looks like. Its sorta confusing when you switch to the lower angle at about 0:16

It does have some feeling to it, and the handheld work is pretty good, not all jittery. The high shutter speed makes it feel a bit to.. I dont know.. tight? Next time try lowering the sutter to get a tiny bit of motion blur, things will smooth out abit...

Artificial · Mar 7, 2013

wheatgrinder said:
You crossed the line with that one.. or did the actor turn around and walk back.

That is a great example of what breaking the 180 degree rule looks like. Its sorta confusing when you switch to the lower angle at about 0:16

It does have some feeling to it, and the handheld work is pretty good, not all jittery. The high shutter speed makes it feel a bit to.. I dont know.. tight? Next time try lowering the sutter to get a tiny bit of motion blur, things will smooth out abit...

I just had him stop walking, then I moved, and had him walk again. I wasn't even thinking about alternating the angles until in post, hence the reason he teleports backwards.

Never heard of the 180 degree rule, but I assume in this case it was going from over the shoulder to looking at him without any kind of transition?

I was honestly surprised at how smooth it came out at 1/50. I definitely would have liked a tiny bit of motion blur. But, oh well. I'm learning.

rayw · Mar 7, 2013

Interesting.
I'm currently conducting shutter speed tests (among other things) for that elusive "filmic look."

Lewis McGregor began a "DSLR Film Look" thread in which there was a link to some goobledy-gok math that I buggered up but have since reworked and tested.
http://www.indietalk.com/showthread.php?t=45370

First, no matter what frame rate you shoot at it's going to be displayed on a computer (ie YouTube & Vimeo) @ 29.97fps.
Now, my rinky dink little camera don't have no fancy 24fps. All I got is 30 & 60. I know I don't wanna shoot at 60fps, so I'm sticking with 30fps.

30fps x 360º / 180º (target) = 60 shutter speed or 1/60.

I'm SUPPOSED to get my nearest "filmic look" @ a shutter speed of 1/60.
Well... it still looks little choppy to me.
So, I knocked the shutter speed down to 1/30.
1/15 also looks fairly decent.
@ 1/8 fast movement starts to get blurry, but normal facial expressions and small hand & finger movements look fine.

So, if "the math" works out that you're supposed to be shooting @ a 1/50 shutter speed try knocking it down one level.
Math is great, but it ain't always the "be all, end all."

Mostly what I'm noticing is that I definitely need a variable neutral density filter, especially outside.

After a bunch of internet snooping around I determined Hoya is likely the best entry level V-ND filter with a name attached, (you can get $20 no-name Chinese who-knows-what quality V-ND easy, but I've been burned on that route.)
They're around $110 - $150. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/searc...&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
Conkins are fairly decent, too.
Tiffens get a bad rap.

Your user experience may differ.

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/180-degree_rule
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4wX_dmh8_g

CraigL said:
Not sure what you mean by smooth though, it looks a little "choppy" to me, like a collection of stills almost rather than motion.

Agreed. Looks choppy to me, too.

CraigL · Mar 7, 2013

Artificial said:
Never heard of the 180 degree rule, but I assume in this case it was going from over the shoulder to looking at him without any kind of transition?

It's the cut at 0:16 that's the issue. Until then, you were on the talent's right side, they were looking and walking left to right (from our perspective). Then, you jump to their left side, and suddenly they're looking/walking right to left. Honouring that axis is generally very important, unless you're breaking it to intentionally confuse the audience. Typically, it deals with two people and keeping each one on the same side of the frame, but here is a great example of it also. You can break it sometimes, but it's generally considered that you'd need to walk us across the line, not just cut to a shot on the other side.

Doing a quick Google of "180 degree rule" will pull up more than you care to know about it.

Artificial said:
I was honestly surprised at how smooth it came out at 1/50. I definitely would have liked a tiny bit of motion blur. But, oh well. I'm learning.

That was at 1/50? It seemed much narrower to me that than also. Not sure what you mean by smooth though, it looks a little "choppy" to me, like a collection of stills almost rather than motion.

CraigL

JWerner · Mar 7, 2013

rayw said:
I'm SUPPOSED to get my nearest "filmic look" @ a shutter speed of 1/60.
Well... it still looks little choppy to me.
So, I knocked the shutter speed down to 1/30.
1/15 also looks fairly decent.
@ 1/8 fast movement starts to get blurry, but normal facial expressions and small hand & finger movements look fine.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, so please don't take this the wrong way. But using a shutter speed slower than the FPS is generally a "Don't".

rayw · Mar 7, 2013

JWerner said:
I'm not trying to be a jerk, so please don't take this the wrong way. But using a shutter speed slower than the FPS is generally a "Don't".

Nah, we're cool.

It just looks how it looks when played back on my HD computer monitor.

I don't know what fps Artificial shot this at, I'll guess @ 60, but the 1/50 shutter speed clearly looks jittery to me in the given example.

So, as a general rule, you try to keep the shutter speed equal to or above the fps, right?
At what higher fps do you find the jitteryness unacceptable?

CraigL · Mar 7, 2013

rayw said:
So, as a general rule, you try to keep the shutter speed equal to or above the fps, right?
At what higher fps do you find the jitteryness unacceptable?

Film uses angles, as you mentioned below, and because film is 24fps, this will translate to 1/48s shutter speed (or 1/50 if you don't have ML).

Something like Saving Private Ryan, for example was shot at 45 degrees (I think?), which would be 1/4 of the exposure time, so more like 1/200s for shutter based cameras. This gave it its very surreal stuttering look, and it looked great for what they were trying to make you feel.

Using wider angles (or slower shutters) would have the opposite effect, making it more blurry and seem more dreamy perhaps. It's all about the look you want.

Rayw, your 1/60 probably seemed a little jerky cause it was. Even though it was 180 degrees, it was still 20% faster than film would be. If you can shoot at 1/50th, then you'd be closer to the same exposure time, even though it's being delivered at 30fps.

CraigL

Artificial · Mar 8, 2013

CraigL said:
That was at 1/50? It seemed much narrower to me that than also. Not sure what you mean by smooth though, it looks a little "choppy" to me, like a collection of stills almost rather than motion.

In theory(see below) I shot it at 1/50. And by smooth, I meant there was no motion blur to the actor. But, I imagine that is because I followed the actor.

rayw said:
I don't know what fps Artificial shot this at, I'll guess @ 60, but the 1/50 shutter speed clearly looks jittery to me in the given example.

So, as a general rule, you try to keep the shutter speed equal to or above the fps, right?
At what higher fps do you find the jitteryness unacceptable?

Filmed at 24 fps. Shutter was supposedly 1/50, but God knows what the D5100 actually had it at even when ae locked. I feel like no matter what I do to the shutter speed and aperture, the exposure never changes for video.

I thought shutter speed was supposed to be double the frame rate, assuming you want a "standard" look; 1/50 on a dslr, since 1/48 isn't an option.

Couldn't tell ya, haven't done enough work yet.

wheatgrinder · Mar 8, 2013

sounds like your camera is like the vido cam I had a while back.. I could lock either the shutter speed or the iris, but not both.. ie, Shutter priority or aperture priority. I think AE tells the camera, adjust the shutter speed automatically to assure that the exposure stays constant, so in brighter light (like outdoors) it will automatically speed up the shutter to keep from changing the exposure you locked.

180 rule is simple, check this tut from IT guru SonnyBoo (John Ross)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdyyuqmCW14

In your shot you only have the one character, but a character in motion implies a line of action in the direction of travel, so the "line" you are not supposed to cross is the between the actor and where he is going (or just the axis representing the direction of travel) whew, that is way too many words to describe a simple concept.. someone else condense my meaning please

wheatgrinder · Mar 8, 2013

to add some confusion, here is a major motion picture scene where the 180 degree rule is NOT followed but somehow still works..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq40uhYowBI

Its pretty subtle, its like the line of action is between the man and the doorway across from him, the girl comes in normally this would establish a NEW line of action between the girl and the man, however, the line of action stays between the man and the door and the girl crosses the line.. so maybe it doesnt break the rule.. I dont know.. but what ever is happening is a bit odd, in a good way.. This scene was NOT in the final theatrical release, maybe thats why.. I think the entire scene was shot to get that cool few frames of the mans faced enclosed inside the negative space of the girls arms. sorta of a visual hug..

Zensteve · Mar 8, 2013

'grats on gettin' out there to do it! :cool:

Definitely try to work a little story in there next time. What's next

.

Artificial · Mar 8, 2013

wheatgrinder said:
sounds like your camera is like the vido cam I had a while back.. I could lock either the shutter speed or the iris, but not both.. ie, Shutter priority or aperture priority. I think AE tells the camera, adjust the shutter speed automatically to assure that the exposure stays constant, so in brighter light (like outdoors) it will automatically speed up the shutter to keep from changing the exposure you locked.

180 rule is simple, check this tut from IT guru SonnyBoo (John Ross)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdyyuqmCW14

It's really weird. The exposure locks and doesn't change when it's recording, but it doesn't even change once recording starts and it's not locked. Oh Nikon... Things like this make me wish I knew I would have got into film making before I got this camera.

That video explained it well. Makes complete sense now.

wheatgrinder said:
to add some confusion, here is a major motion picture scene where the 180 degree rule is NOT followed but somehow still works..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq40uhYowBI

I agree, it did seem to work out well.

Zensteve said:
Definitely try to work a little story in there next time. What's next

Creating things with a story to them, not just a scene with no meaning.

The plan is to basically recreate a scene a few times. But, different actors and a different resolution to each. Just trying to work on creating a different tone and theme, as well as the actual camera work. Planning for them to be 30-45 seconds long. Possibly would pick which ever one got the best response, and make it into a "full length" short. Hoping I won't be the one with the camera in hand for too long, and can get in just the directors seat by time I'm ready to shoot a short that I intend to enter in festivals.

Crazyfrog Productions · Mar 8, 2013

*Breaks 180 degree rule*
Me: NOOOOOO!!!!
Overall, it was good, besides the whole thing about not having a plot. (Napoleon Dynamite, anyone?). I liked how the video looked. The audio was a bit of a problem, since you could hear the cameraman's footsteps too. And.... use a tripod! Tripods fix everything.
So besides all of this criticism, I encourage you to make a real movie or short film.

Good luck!

Artificial · Mar 8, 2013

Crazyfrog Productions said:
The audio was a bit of a problem, since you could hear the cameraman's footsteps too.

And.... use a tripod! Tripods fix everything.

So besides all of this criticism, I encourage you to make a real movie or short film. Good luck!

I recorded just my own footsteps(and the ambient sounds) by myself after my brother went inside. So, I'm exactly sure what you're hearing. :huh:

I would have liked to, but the mount shoe thingy on mine has been missing forever. I need to buy myself a nice fluid head anyway, whenever I stop buying car parts. :rolleyes:

I see all this criticism as constructive. I'm eager to learn as much as I can. A day without learning is like a day without living. I can't wait to get out and shoot my actual first short.

CraigL · Mar 9, 2013

wheatgrinder said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq40uhYowBI

What a beautiful example of that old adage: Rules are for the guidance of the wise, and the obedience of fools.

I think this works, because we feel what Leon is feeling.

When Mathilda first walks in, his world is being turned on its side, he's totally out of control and he's completely unfamiliar with the feeling. The constant switching of frame directions keeps us similarly unnerved.
However, once it starts getting personal with him, the "rule" is honoured again; we get close and intimate and the world returns to "normal".

So many rules to break... so little time!

CraigL

baoliun · Mar 9, 2013

Well,first of all 180 rule dosent apply to 1 character. Secondly, even if it did,nothing wrong in this sequence as there is no way you would get confused on the intercut. The guy is walking down the street. You cut and he is still there (boring,but oh well ;p).

Cracker Funk · Mar 9, 2013

The 180 degree rule definitely applies when there is only one character. If there is a line of action (and there almost always is), then there is a 180 rule.

In the Leon example, the line of action is very clear -- it is between Mathilda and Leon. So, yeah, they violate the rule repeatedly. However, we must remember that there are shots that are neutral. We all know that you can cross the line by actually crossing the line, in-shot. But the other way to cross the line, that nobody ever mentions, is by using a neutral shot. A neutral shot stares right down the center of the line of action.

The shots in this scene are so ultra-close that they come damn-near close to staring down the center of the line of action, so they have the effect of being a neutral shot, and allow us to jump from side to side, without it being jarring.

On a side-note, though this scene definitely wasn't in "The Professional", I kinda think it was in the creepier original, "Leon". Am I wrong?

Oh, and for the OP, dude, get out there and do something. Filming a dude walking down the street does not constitute a short film. The real thing is heck of a lot of fun, so do it!