Blackmagic Production Camera 4K

Nikki Malkavian Z-boy said:

hey friends. a couple days ago i was discussing with a friend about cameras, i told him that i need a professional one for shooting like a boss and NOT a simple camcorder. he told me to look for one that has 2.8k or 4k @ 10 bit. i don't even know what that meant but i did my research and came across this:

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicproductioncamera4k

it shoots in ultra HD and has many cool features but the price stings a bit. are there any other cheaper CINEMATIC cameras that shoot in ultra HD? what do you guys think?

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Hi Nikki - the 2743€ Blackmagic Production Camera 4K (from Amazon Italia) is the only camera in this price range with UHD and 10 bit internal recording.

If you don't mind 8-bit, the €1375.93 Panasonic GH4 records 8-bit true cinematic 4096x2160 4K (3840x2160 UHD is for TV).

Here is what this camera can do at 1080p resolution (1.9K) and 96 frames per second with an anamorphic adapter - pretty cinematic, in my view:

http://vimeo.com/97096167


All of that said, if you don't know what 2.5K/4K resolution and 10-bit color bit depth are, you probably don't need them. Where are you planning to exhibit or distribute your work? For 99% of the distribution channels in the world, you can save yourself some money and get a large sensor 1080p camera with a headphone jack for around 1000€ - such as the Panasonic GH3, the Sony RX10 or the Sony CX900.

Here is what the GH3 can do: http://vimeo.com/49420579

Here is what the RX10 can do: http://vimeo.com/80319639

Here is what the CX900 can do: http://vimeo.com/93287042

If you really think you need 10-bit for color grading your work during post production, you can get a 1.9K 10-bit Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera (BMPCC) for less than 900€

Here are a few short films shot with the BMPCC:

http://vimeo.com/104137860

http://vimeo.com/99342911

And a feature film teaser:

http://vimeo.com/83904909

Hope this is helpful!

Bill

cool stuff, Bill!

those cams seem awesome but i think i will stick to the one i mentioned first. that friend of mine told me specifically 4k at 10 bit because i told him that i need a professional, Hollywood-standards cam which can give multiple desired results. i want one camera that i will never change again.

Your going to need a computer and software that can process the finished product.

What's your budget? The camera is only a small part of the cost. You'll also need several thousands of dollars in lenses, in storage systems, batteries, in computing power to actually edit it, in rig to put the camera on. What about sound gear? Etc

The Blackmagic also will not last "forever." It'll be outdated within a year. Its also not up to Hollywood standards. The only place it'll get used in Hollywood is when they want to put a camera in a dangerous place (e.g. In a car that's going to be wrecked) because its quality is passable for brief shots and they don't want to wreck something more expensive. You simply won't get the quality of a camera 10 or 20 times the price. And it certainly won't last forever. You are a beginner no? By the time you even have the skills to take full use of the camera it will be severely outdated.

And that's not smart spending. So I really cannot recommend the black magic for you.

I'd say you're getting way ahead of yourself here, judging by your current level of expertise.

What are you shooting on now? How many projects have you completed with your current equipment? Where is your current equipment falling short in what you're trying to achieve?

i have a computer powerful enough to process the videos, no worries about that.

yes, i'm an amateur and i know that i will need lotsa money for the rest of the equipment. if not the Blackmagic camera then which one? i liked what Bill suggested but i'm afraid if the quality isn't what i want. what do you guys think?

also, how is the ultra HD gonna be outdated so soon? i know that technology runs fast, but it seems little bit weird.

all i wanted was to have a good tool to start shooting my scripts. i have some equipment, but i wanted to take it one step forward. forgive my ignorance.

Don't worry about the gear until you are fully competent with lesser quality tools and what you already possess. A shit story captured without lights, with awful sound, on a several hundred to several hundred thousand dollar camera will still be a shit story.

In other words, you should focus on learning to crawl before you try to compete in an olympic running event.


That said, I don't agree necessarily with the negative feedback about the Black Magic 4k. I own one, and it's got a really nice image. Details are escaping me at the moment, but I seem to recall hearing about a feature in production that's using the 4k, recently.

4K won't go away any time soon.. HD took quite a while to catch on, and while it's now more or less considered 'standard' I guarantee you there are still a great number of people who don't have HD televisions. The vast majority of cable and satellite networks are still delivered in standard definition. 4K TV's aren't going to start selling like the best thing since sliced bread on a wide scale any time real soon.. it's just not realistic.

At this point, nobody really NEEDS 4K, unless, perhaps, they are doing a lot of high-end VFX work and really need the extra resolution.

Also, keep in mind, that while the price of the Black Magic 4K (now on sale for $500 off) is about $3000, you also need a bunch of additional gear to make it really useful. You need an external battery solution, you need lenses, you need IR and ND filters, you need some form of external monitoring solution (the built in screen is nigh unusable in bright daylight, with it's mirror-like finish).. realistically you're probably looking at a minimum of another $3000-5000 in accessories and whatnot. So suddenly that great deal $3000 camera is going to run you upwards of $5000-10,000.. still, a pretty great deal for what it offers. But if you're lacking experience in general there's absolutely no reason to sink that kind of money into gear, and while you may _think_ your computer is capable, it's almost certainly not.

That's just covering the camera.. of course without great light you might as well be shooting pixelvision. Without great sound, you might as well just not bother at all.. and without a story worth telling, there's no point to even think about any of it in the first place.

Yes, the black magic 4k is a great little camera, especially for the price point it sells at. But unless you've got the means to provide it with the necessary accessories, camera support, and the like.. don't bother.

hmmmm. ok then, i'll forget the Blackmagic Production 4K.

my point was to make a film all by myself, but looking professional. so, do you suggest to just shoot in full HD?
(i have a Sony camcorder and a Nikon camera for that.)

apart from the cameras, can you name the exact equipment that i will need? with the result looking as pro as possible and done as cheaply as possible. sorry again, i'm just trying to learn.

thanks!

a professional look is accomplished primarily with lighting and color grading accompanied by sound design.

for "Hollywood" looking films you'll need a light kit (with operator), sound kit (with operator), gear for camera movment like a crane or a dolly (and grips to operate it), lenses (passable lenses are at least $500-$600), disk storage, accessories, location rental, an editor, a colorist, a VFX artist, a post production sound engineer and a thousand other little things that in total are going to cost you AT LEAST $5,000. And at that point you haven't even bought a camera yet.


this is why most indie filmmakers build a kit over time, not all at once. that, or they collaborate with people who own and can operate the equipment they need for their film.

Alternatively, what you could do is hire a black magic + all the relevant accessories for your next project. Then you can see if you really do need and can handle such a camera. Maybe after using it you'll find it is worth spending thousands on.

What is your computer system? It will take a fair bit of power to handle editing it!
What about sound? No point having a great camera if you can't hear dialogue.
Do you have any lighting experience? If not I bet I can get a better image from my meagre HD camera than you can from your ultra HD camera
Do you have any colour grading experience? If not see above.

Now if the answer to the latter two questions is no, then that's not a huge deal, but if you want to be a cinematographer, then you definitely need to learn to light. Grading isn't a cinematography thing, but I guess you may largely be working solo? Black magic shoots flat, so the image doesn't look good until graded - you can learn this but it takes time and practice.

By the time you learn these two adequately, the camera will probably have dropped a lot in price as new cameras get released. The computing upgrades you'll need will also be cheaper. Alternatively at the same price the black magic is now you'll get a better camera. Win win.

Re: Sound - you'll not really be able to look after visuals and sound adequately, but you need to team up with a talented sound person.

i'm afraid if the quality isn't what i want

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I gather you've got the gist from most of the others in this thread that the quality comes from a lot of different areas. Some of it comes from the quality of the equipment you're using, though most of it comes from the abilities and experience of the people you're using.

my point was to make a film all by myself, but looking professional

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result looking as pro as possible and done as cheaply as possible

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There's a quality triad. Cheap, Fast, Good. Pick two. You've picked cheap and good. That's great, just be aware, it's going to take a lot of time.

You're wanting to do it solo. Here's the predicament you're putting yourself in:

People are used to a particular level of production value these days. Lots of camera movement, great sound, great looking sets, great acting, great stories and so forth. Capturing sound and operating the camera solo may cause challenges if there is movement in the actors. Of course you can set up a boom on a C-Stand, but if they move, you may miss something. You can use a Lav, though are you happy with compromising the quality of the sound... or do you have the skills and equipment to do an ADR session for everything you shoot?

When you're moving the camera, can you operate the dolly/crane and camera at the same time? and pull focus if required? If you're solo, does that mean you're only actor too? If so, how do you do all that and be in front of the camera too?

I don't know what you're planning on shooting. Going solo is going to place limits on what you can comfortably shoot. You can do it. You just have to decide on what you really want as your production value to whether you can do it yourself. Not every video needs wide sweeping camera movements.

cheeseandachallenge said:

... Its also not up to Hollywood standards. The only place it'll get used in Hollywood is when they want to put a camera in a dangerous place (e.g. In a car that's going to be wrecked) because its quality is passable for brief shots and they don't want to wreck something more expensive...

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"Checkmate" starring Danny Glover and Sean Astin was shot in its entirety on Blackmagic Production Cameras and the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera:

News piece w production stills: http://theactionelite.com/2014/07/first-look-at-checkmate-starring-danny-glover-vinnie-jones/

Press Release: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/press/pressdetails?releaseID=61426

Interview with the director: http://filmmakermagazine.com/87329-...blackmagic-production-camera-4k/#.VAaOGvBX-uY

That said, as you and others have suggested, it is probably too much camera for a new shooter.

New shooters who want to learn how to handle 10-bit ProRes or 12-bit RAW would be better off starting out with a Pocket Cinema Camera , in my view.

Cheers,

Bill

Sure, but that's a pretty apparent outlier. I'm also unsure if it really counts as a "Hollywood" film - both of those actors are b actors at best, and I can't find anything online about the film besides the links you posted (though admittedly that could be because it's only just been in production - but the point is there isn't any "buzz" around it). Feature films have been shot on the T2i, but that doesn't mean the T2i is a "hollywood" camera.

The point is, it's not the mainstream hollywood choice, and the fact that the only example of a bigger budget film being shot on the blackmagic is seemingly relatively insignificant film only goes to prove that. I could be wrong, and Checkmate could be a smash hit - but it doesn't change the fact it's an outlier.

Now personally, I'd be more than happy with the quality of the Black Magic if I were to shoot a feature. It's a good camera, especially for the price point. But using it does come with compromises that come from not using cameras that are 10x the cost. And the OP wanted "Hollywood quality" - the BlackMagic probably isn't up to Hollywood's standards in most instances. Though, as has been suggested, a Hollywood quality camera is probably now where Nikki should be starting with his search for "Hollywood quality."

Your suggestion of the Pocket Camera is a decent one, but I'll do the boring thing and suggest the OP invests in lighting and other gear before they do in a camera. You're image and skills will improve a lot more when you improve at lighting, composition, camera movement, and colour grading, than by simply buying a new camera. Then by the time Nikki feels more accomplished in those areas, the camera he currently wants will be far cheaper, or he can get a much better camera for the same price. As far as I can tell now, buying the camera now would only be a massive waste of money, as by the time Nikki is good enough to fully utilise it, it will have been so much cheaper.

cheeseandachallenge said:

But using it does come with compromises that come from not using cameras that are 10x the cost.

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EVERY camera has limitations (compromises as you say).. even those that are 10x or 100x the cost of the BMPC4K

nevermind, i will only use my DSLR and my phone.

guess i will find other people who already own some pieces of equipment and work with them.

also, i'm planning to study directing (for free, no worries ), which i believe is my only chance of operating professional equipment. what do you guys think?

Nikki Malkavian Z-boy said:

nevermind, i will only use my DSLR and my phone.

guess i will find other people who already own some pieces of equipment and work with them.

also, i'm planning to study directing (for free, no worries ), which i believe is my only chance of operating professional equipment. what do you guys think?

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So you're planning to be a director? In that case, it's probably not worth buying gear anyway. A director typically has an understanding of how the gear works, but in order to direct effectively, most people prefer to not be operating any of it themselves. I used to direct while operating the camera. Ever since I found myself a DoP/Camera Operator, my films have improved visually and in terms of direction. I couldn't direct my actors and other crew effectively while behind the camera, and I couldn't operate the camera effectively while directing.

If you mean you'll get to use gear at film school - that's a good idea, especially if it's free. Film school is often seen as a waste of money (it can shelter young filmmakers from the realities of professional filmmaking, and film is an area where doing it is way better than reading about it). But you'll meet likeminded people, and as you say, get experience with better gear. If they have a good camera, you can see what it can do without buying one. When you graduate, if you decide you want to be a DoP instead of a director, then maybe you'll want to buy a camera - after the experience you've gained in film school, you'll be in a much better position to make a wise choice.

Will Vincent said:

EVERY camera has limitations (compromises as you say).. even those that are 10x or 100x the cost of the BMPC4K

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Yeah, of course. And one of those compromises is that they're really expensive Again, the BMC4K is a pretty incredible camera for the price point, but I'm not really convinced it's a "Hollywood level" camera.

Probably been said already but....

its the camera man not the camera that makes the image (also the lighting) putting too much stake in your camera shooting 4k and bla bla bla x bla bla bla will not give you a professional product.

yup. director it is. i will leave the expensive stuff for the future. for personal use i have a Nikon 3300D, a Sony camcorder and a Nokia Lumia 1020 with a 41 megapixel camera.