Indie Film Sound Idea

Hello
I have been doing a LOT of research for a while, trying to decide the best way to capture the sound for a feature film i am making. As i have spent such a long time now, i figured i would share the ideas i have had, to either help someone or get some feedback.

So the best way to capture sound on an indie film production is by a good boomed mic and boom operator.
But this means you have to find someone willing to commit to this role, then you have to schedule them into your filming schedule. This is why i have been hoping there is another option. One that would even let me conduct a shoot with just me and the talent.

Wireless lapel mic systems are expensive and not not particularly reliable. So here are some interesting products i found that i feel will provide an good alternative.

The Zoom H1 at £70 is actually cheaper than a good wireless transmitter, more reliable and better battery life. Then Rode PinMic, can be placed discretely outside cloths, (creating less chance of contact with cloths). Finally you use software like PluralEyes to sink up all the different recording with your cameras built in mic.

Anyway, this is what i will probably end up buying. I will film a short show the results here some time.
 
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both the visuals and audio would benefit from A LOT of improvement.
Yes defiantly, I wasn't happy with the audio visuals of that film.
I wasn't saying that was an example of good results with lapels. It was the first time i had, it was quite bad really. But it was an example where i got very little noise from the actors cloths, and monitoring live wouldn't have made much (if any) difference . It fell down because of the time i spend setting it up and the headphones i used to set up with (also because it was a £14 lapel mic).
 
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It sounds like i'm arguing here doesn't it. Im just trying to figure out the risks and difficulties of filming in the way i am proposing. Because due to time i have to film this project: I will inevitable have to use lapel mics at some point....

Apparently the risk is very high. It seems i should do everything i can to avoid it, thanks for the advice.
 
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Since you're in London you should have access to quite a few knowledgeable people, even if they don't have a lot - or even any - production sound experience.

My first exposure to film/video work was when I interviewed to be an extra for a micro-budget short. (The director was dean of the film/theatre dept. at a local college, most of the crew his students.) Seeing that I had experience as a recording engineer I was co-opted into the position of production sound mixer. I at least had knowledge of signal flow, gain-staging, etc. Sometimes we had boom-ops, sometimes I would swing the boom myself.

So look around for people with a music engineering background; they should have a basic knowledge of signal flow, gain-staging and the like. Most music types will work for beer. :D :D
 
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Can you make a video of that, please?

:lol: It would probably be one of my better ones. Are you volunteering to do sound? My apologies to RJ if my post appeared harsh. I was actually trying to keep it light, but it doesn't look like that worked.

The other day I had to figure out the approximate number of hours I had shooting in my old ENG job. The safe estimate was between 4,000 and 6,000 hours or about 500 hours a year (I'm old :cool:). It's just a matter of time before unmonitored or part time monitored audio will become a major issue, usually at the worst possible time.

Just sayin'.
 
doesn't look like that worked.
I didn't see anything harsh. It was funny. Do i come across as angry.
I think my first sound test (with whatever kit i get in the end) is going to have to feature some lack of audio monitoring, running with scissors, touching a hot stoves, and...... well maybe not the last one. Alcove Audio can do the sound, just get him drunk it seems :) .
 
Thanks, thats interesting Alcove Audio. Im at uni in Warwick at the moment. But your right, there probably are more people out there looking for experience than i realise. Its just the hardest thing about filmmaking i have found so fare is; finding reliable people and scheduling dates to film. (That is the soul reason i have started acting) Maybe i have had bad luck.

PS: just read your last comment. Touché
 
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I run into the same situation, RJ. Sometimes these forum conversations are tricky without eye contact the inability to read body language. It's all good.

Besides, running with scissors makes us all feel like Jason Bourne. :lol:
 
Are you volunteering to do sound?
Although I recently have acquired a few toilet and household electronics sounds I will defer to your experience and expertise. :D

Okay, maybe I'll make some grunting & giggling sounds for your unprotected sex scenes. :lol:
(The idea of recording the sound of a used rubber hitting a hardwood floor reminds me of an audio joke:
What's the last sound a pubic hair makes?
Pppth! [as it's being spit out]
)
:rolleyes:



Alcove -
LMAO!
Hilarious!
 
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(I'm just gonna ignore the condoms)

Waaait!! You're gonna run the camera, the mic and do acting, all at the same time? Holy crap that's intense... Are you setting up lights too? You're gonna die, man, if you're not careful!
 
Audio is a terrible weakness of mine. I just met a good audio guy and am trying to have him teach me a few things. He told me he'll be at my next shoot to help me out.

But just for giggles, let's just give you my situation:
I have a tascam dr-100
3 azden lavs
1 audio technica boom mic

Last time I shot somethig, I let a buddy of mine, who went to 4 years of film school, handle the sound. I figured, this guy MUST know something about sound, and if something goes wrong, he'll know how to fix it better than me, so I won't worry about it.

Turns out he had the audio down so low the entire time, the audio was unusable. I couldn't hear a thing. So now I'm thinking I need to monitor the audio while I watch the video, no matter WHO else is in charge of audio.

So here's the question: What's the best way for two people to monitor audio. What wireless whatever device do I need to add to my back pack to make this happen?
Thanks!
Aveek
 
Audio is a terrible weakness of mine.

Why should you be different than anyone else? At least you're trying to do something about it.

Last time I shot somethig, I let a buddy of mine, who went to 4 years of film school, handle the sound. I figured, this guy MUST know something about sound, and if something goes wrong, he'll know how to fix it better than me, so I won't worry about it. Turns out he had the audio down so low the entire time, the audio was unusable.

What makes you think that they teach audio in film school? Believe it or not, even at the big name film schools, sound for picture is an elective in most cases. That's why you need people like Roc and GP on your set, and someone like me for audio post.

Guys who don't know audio are so ignorant that they figure it's finally loud enough if the levels always show red, then the next time they're so paranoid of creating distortion they record way too low.

BTW, did you actually see/hear any of his work to check out if he revered sound like a god? Or at least got something listenable?

So here's the question: What's the best way for two people to monitor audio. What wireless whatever device do I need to add to my back pack to make this happen?

Hmmmm, that's a good question. Reliable distortion free audio distribution is not difficult, just pricey. When sending the audio from a mixer direct to the camera that was not a problem; the PSM listened on camera return feed to the mixer, the director and camera op listened on the camera.


The cheapest way - no guarantees it will work well - is to use a "Y" cable out of the DR-100 headphone out. The mixer/boom-op uses one to feed his headphones, the second gets a very long extension cable to your headphones. The biggest problem at the low/no/micro level are the long high-impedance cable runs, which are extremely prone to RF and other forms of interference; you may end up hearing things that aren't there. It is also probable that the interference will feed back to the PSM/Boom-op, so s/he will hear distortion that is not actually being recorded, but try for hours to track down. S/he'll unplug your extended headphone cable, the hum/buzz goes away, and you're stuck not hearing again. Also, long high-impedance cable runs degrade sound quality and volume level. Your sound guy may object to dragging that long cable behind him/her, and you may need a cable wrangler to keep the cable "quiet" (not making noise by dragging on the ground, snagging and knocking over props, fixtures and other gear).
 
So here's the question: What's the best way for two people to monitor audio. What wireless whatever device do I need to add to my back pack to make this happen?
Thanks!
Aveek

That's an interesting question. I've never encountered such a setup before, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to rig up. One of the my film-making partners teaches TV and Radio production classes at local high school, and on more than one occasion we've had a relatively inexperienced student running audio. While it generally has turned out alright, a lightweight wireless setup to monitor audio could certainly come in handy. I'm interested to see if anyone else can shed some more light on such a setup.

EDIT: Oops, Alcove already responded. I guess that's what I get for opening a thread in a tab, and then walking away and coming back a few hours later. Still, is there a lightweight wireless solution that would work? I wouldn't mind shelling out a few hundred if there was a reliable way this could be done. I've screwed around with 1/8" Y splitters ended up with some interference problems, not to mention the tangles of cable for people to trip on.
 
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Once you venture into "proper" production sound set-ups you have a real budget and suitable personnel. You'll have a boom-op who is sometimes supported by a sound assistant/wrangler and a production sound mixer who is not terribly far from the camera, the director and the DP. From the mixer/recorder set-up a sub-mix is sent out to a headphone distribution system; most of the time it's hard-wired, something like this:

518598.jpg

It is also becoming more common for the boom-op to use a wireless system for the boomed mic feed and an audio monitor return from the mixer.

The problem is that most of these solutions are on the expensive side for indie types. They all want to contain costs, yet doing things "right" takes a serious investment of both capital and knowledge/experience. In TrueIndies or your case if you are using the DR-100 you would use the line out, convert to low impedance and send to a unit like the one above (PSC Headphone D A - $350) and at least two additional sets of headphones (director & DP, perhaps 1st AD and/or script supervisor). Yes, you can go wireless (figure adding another $600 for something reliable) from the mixer/recorder to the headphone amp. As you can see it gets expensive and complicated quite fast.

On a "Hollywood" set the production sound team is responsible for all audio, including comms. And they charge serious money for it as PAs and most of the rest of the crew tend to trash things like that.
 
Okay, so I asked my question of the "second headphone" to Deejay Scharton of http://www.dslrfilmnoob.com/.

The guy is absolutely fantastic. I'm copying his response when it comes to monitoring sound through a second headphone when you are in close proximity to the shoot:

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Well here is the cheap way:

Use a 9volt headphone mixer:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...17145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=B00102VX94

Plug in 2 bluetooth transmitters
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...17145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=B000FL4GBI

and use 2 bluetooth stereo headphones
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...17145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=B002BH3I9U

Depending on the headphones and transmitter you choose this setup should run you about $150.

You can substitute the headphones and transmitter for a combo unit like this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...17145&creative=399349&creativeASIN=B001TK3ACA
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I just ordered my items. This is going to be beautiful.
Hope this is what you were looking for SinEater.

Best,
Aveek
 
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