Follow up to my "argument" with Sonny and Cracker regarding hybrid distribution.

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Follow up to my "argument" with Sonny and Cracker regarding hybrid distribution.

Sonnyboo,

I am back. I could start this right out with questioning some of your claims in our previous conversation based on my recent experiences but I will take the high road.

Everyone else,

I had gotten into a heated debate several months ago while trying to open a discussion about how the leverage in negotiating for distribution could be turned to the indie filmmakers favor. I was chastized as being a fool, arrogant and a liar.

I tried to explain my plan and the words were lost in the animosity and defeat of everyone else's bitter experiences. I explained how I wanted to do a 6 city tour and try and build fans as we went a long and hope it turned into something much much bigger. I was told by Sonny and others I was a fool and "drunk of the success of making my first movie" Full of condescending comments as they patted me on the back and said "good for you lil fella"

Guess what - It happened!

I even invited Sonny and others to come to the shows and address their concerns or disbelief during our Q&A's. Q&A's broadcast live online so folks like Sonny or Cracker could watch and question me in front of a crowd from the sanctity of their couches. They choose to mock my plan as impossible on a message board instead.

Here is a sizzle real from the tour (FYI this was edited for a reality show pitch that is now currently in development)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FPaLIKfxz0

Oh by the way a review from the UK (one of many similar reviews, this is my favorite however)
http://www.pissedoffgeek.com/wordpress/?p=1381

Feel free to click on the daggers (Its only fan confessions from each city)
http://theperfecthousemovie.net/tour.html

Oh AND what do you know facebook just recently launched a VOD site. One that we will be announcing a partnership with in the near future. www.flicklaunch.com (This site will become the silver bullet for Indie filmmakers)

Currently we are securing the final financing for a 200k marketing plan estimated to reach 60 million people around the world. Our little tour will be a 34 city lap around the country in a tour bus promoting the release of the film. While documenting the entire tour and building a fan base we will be creating an instant documentary/behind the scenes/reality show all while giving away free screenings in each city.

So I will say this one more time. JUST because Sonny or anyone else wasn't able to do something. Doesn't mean you can't!
 
First off, I think there's nothing wrong with thinking or saying your film is 'disgustingly good.' You should love and be proud of your movie and when trying to market it you should talk it up. McDonald's doesn't sell hamburgers by advertising them as 'Meh, they're ok.'

But when you try to pass off ego as altruism (re: the whole trying to 'inspire' line you keep throwing out) I find that presumptuous and it irks me.

So while you may be trying to help (or 'inspire' as you continue to presume to think), I'm turned off by your 'teaching style.' You may have something to say that I can learn from, but this is one 'class' I'll be dropping. Hopefully it'll be in the curriculum next semester with a different professor.

edit: I forgot to say, I really do wish you the best of luck with your movie :)

Females... always manage to stay tactful...

Get your hands dirty!

Just kidding, just thought I'd offer some appreciation for not diverting to anything too childish in response to Gratwick.
 
I actually used that in our facebook pool question!

While going over my pitch an idea for peace came to me.

Here is my peace offering in an effort to show my desire to truly have a productive conversation. If I openly posted my detailed marketing plan for all of you to see everything, can we have an intelligent discussion about why or why not?

I would also be happy to answer any CONSTRUCTIVE questions.

1. Is this your first feature length film endeavor?

2. Did you actually have a one or two million dollar offer for your feature film, or were you projecting based on what you felt the material could earn from a distribution deal with major distributors?

3. Did you export the trailer improperly? You've got a lot of distortion etc in it, it may sway opinions from people who want to watch your feature as you tour into not seeing it, in fear of spending money on something that doesn't quite shine as bright as larger properties.
 
Nothing condescending or deratory there. Can't imagine why I take such offense to your arrogant position of where my limits should be.

I never said you COULDN'T (which is a contraction for COULD NOT) succeed with your awesomely innovative plan to go with a four walling tour and video on demand before seeking distribution; what I have labored to communicate to you, a person with an obvious learning and/or reading disability, is that it is LESS LIKELY to succeed or yield a greater return on investment, at least in my own limited experience with several feature films in distribution already worldwide.

That's not condescension or being derogatory, it's mere sarcasm and regret aimed at the state of affair in Facebook distro platforms. It's nothing aimed at you or Wheatgrinder, it's directed at Facebook.

You shouldn't take every comment in the most negative light imaginable.

Thanks for stating that. Pretty much nailed it.


I know I said I wouldn’t be responding but I couldn’t resist myself. The irony of everyone’s positions in their posts is how many derogatory and attacking comments about me personally are being thrown around by a bunch of people accusing me of those exact positions.

Of course not. You are an attention hog, desperate to appear relevant. Even negative attention is better than being ignored, the way your movie is. Notice, no one is responding or writing about your movie, or letting the work speak for itself. They only have your posts. That's a shame. A real shame.

Hypocrisy its not just the ugly step sister of denial.

"Hello Kettle. This is the pot. You're black."

The last two posts by Sonny were filled with personal insults, derogatory comments and condescending tones written with the intention of instigating.

Can you point out to what is exactly a "personal insult"? Where have I stated anything about you personally? I don't know you. From what I've read, I don't imagine many people would want to know you. If you are in fact Kris Hubert, then I don't see that I could have an intelligent conversation with someone so blinded by first time filmmaker syndrome that nothing productive could possibly come from discourse with you.

I don’t give two shits if Sonny or anyone else agrees with my plan. From the beginning I have done nothing but attempt to show all of you there are other ways to do things not just the “right way” deemed and watched over by Sonny the gatekeeper.

Then why on earth would you make a post with my name in it, making wild unsubstantiated claims?

Because you're an attention hog that can't get people excited about his film, so he has to resort to these kind of crass pedantic measures to get anyone to notice him.

I believe half of the supporters of Sonnys derogatory positions are just simply based on blind loyalty and half reads of posts.

Or, they could read your posts and decide for themselves that your plan is neither innovative nor more likely to turn a profit, especially in the $1-$2 million dollar range from Universal of LionsGate. By the way, I notice you are now referring to the idea of turning them down as hypothetical, and yet you had also said deals were offered with your attorney present. Which is is? I'd like to clarify that if possible so that you can clear your good name of any accusations of lying or exaggeration.

Productive conversations with disagreeing parties do not include absolutes. Everything we are doing is fluid. Like one post said we are open to and asking for insight from anyone and anywhere and we use that info anyway we can to evolve and improve. Everything that Sonny types is filled with absolutes. Simple YOU CANT DO THAT or THAT’S NOT POSSIBLE. Maybe he didn’t flat out call me a “fool” and a “liar” but he did it every way a coward can without coming right out and saying it.

Yes, everything Sonnyboo writes like "more likely" or "most companies are not offering those kinds of numbers" and the like - so absolute. Can you show me where I have ever said "YOU CAN'T DO THAT or THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE"? Either in all caps or with proper punctuation?

You can't because I didn't. This entire animosity exists in your imagination.

Funny how you try to manipulate and use our own words against us from the video’s yet you leave out the actual truth. Yes we were all very disappointed by the lack of attendance AT RUTGERS!!!!! A major reason for that as one of the other people in the video mentions is because every show was bigger than the one before it until Rutgers where we had been lead to believe we had a ton of cast and crew support so it was very demoralizing.

It's such a horrible thing to use YOUR EXACT QUOTES WITH YOUR OWN VIDEOS, without changing a word. What a horribly and manipulative thing to do! I hate when people use my actual words, as opposed to some idiot who actually doesn't quote you correctly and puts in absolutes where they don't exist.... wait a second! I think I might have just read that above!

SIDENOTE – Sonny aka Mr. Industry from Columbus you continue to show YOUR arrogance that what you know and feel is in fact the ruling way things should be. NO ONE gives a shit your disgusted by our use of Eminem and Pink in the video.

Actually the artists not being compensated by the use of their music and their subsequent publishing companies via ASCAP and BMI might give a hoot....

IF you knew ANYTHING about the actual Hollywood industry going on thousands of miles from you someone would have been kind enough to tell you….THATS THE WAY ITS DONE!!!!

When ACTUALLY pitching something like say a Reality Show to say REAL PRODUCERS they WANT AND DEMAND popular music in the sizzle reel. Oh and as long as your not making a profit off the video you can most certainly use it.

Uh, you do realize that in real TV shows, they get the rights and clearances for the music, right? They want that paid for and legally cleared for broadcast. I hate having to deal with complete amateurs...

Oh and as long as your not making a profit off the video you can most certainly use it.
If you would like I can have my entertainment attorney contact you directly and advise you of these opportunities.

If you had ever spoken to an attorney EVER about IP laws (that's intellectual property for the newbs and beginners wanting to learn what is and isn't legal), then you would know this statement is an absolute FALSE. We'll see how long your sizzle reel lasts when the owners of the music are made aware of it's usage on YouTube without permission.

Please, have your attorney contact me about the use of copyrighted music without permission, with or without profit. Ross @ sonnyboo . com PLEASE have have your attorney contact me. I beg you. Don't be a coward and back off of this. HAVE THEM EMAIL ME or call.

1. The ONLY reason all the confessionals are positive is because we have yet to get a SINGLE bad one. I have the video from the Q&As where I beg and encourage ANYONE that didn’t like the film to please say that to the camera. I want to show some bad confessionals so people like you can’t play that card. Unfortunately I’m not going to make bad ones up just to appease you. So I APOLOGY there is no documented case of displeasure.

It's "Apologize" in that context because it's a verb (an "action word" if you will), not "APOLOGY" because that is a noun.

see also

2. Critics and random people LOVE our movie and even more so our PLAN

If you honestly believe that every single person who sees your movie like it without exception, then you are proving my point about "First Time Filmmaker Syndrome". Way to live the stereotype.


1. With marketing our idea and plan WILL work
2. Critics and random people LOVE our movie and even more so our PLAN

Then, why not wait until you have some sales numbers and serious critical and audience acclaim, and THEN write back about how wrong I am? Right now, you're still proving nothing, making an ass of yourself, and then IF (as I don't believe in many absolutes) you fail, it will be less humiliating.

Our true marketing plan projects more than 60 MILLION IMPRESSIONS ( I CAN PROVE THIS IS HIGHLY CONSERVATIVE) for a total budget of 200k and that doesn't include a SINGLE bit of return from the publicists work.

Based on the profit rate from Flick Launch To turn a profit on our budget and marketing plan off NOTHING MORE THAN VOD we would need 100,000 views. That equates to less than .16% of those 60 million impressions watching the movie.

I don't need arrogance or insanity, i have FLAT OUT NUMBERS to back my position. Thanks to our tour I now have confessionals, reviews and RESULTS to back that position on a MUCH bigger scale. The mini tour you think and imply was a total failure endeared us to fans and won over investors. The result??

Uh, no you don't. You have hypothetical numbers. You have no $$$ from VOD. You haven't sold any DVD's. You have had a few mediocre screenings that yielded no profit. If your goal is to prove to the newbs and beginners how to lose money, then I agree you are a rousing success!

A tour bus wrapped in an ad for the release date starting in Buffalo and doing 34 shows in 34 cities while completing an entire lap around the country in 90 days giving away free PROMOTED screenings.

So what do you think Sonny you think a few reputable news outlets might cover something like that?

Maybe. I will ask you what a journalist asked me when I did something very similar. Why should they write about your movie? How does this appeal to the local people and media? What is your human interest angle and hook? You need something more substantial than a free screening and a bus.

2. Same with the reviews, I put a link to my favorite not the only one. If YOU want to do the research to support YOUR position than DO IT. There are tons of them out there, good luck again finding a bad one. Feel free to visit www.hauntcast.com for the newest one. But the childish excuse of its some over seas tiny horror website is just sad.

YOU posted the link. Supposedly this was evidence of some "success" on your part. This was some sort of “evidence” that “you did it”. If you have other reviews or other evidence of critical success, it's up to you to post it. I don't really care what you do or don't get for press.

Has ANYONE overseas written about you projects?

Yes. Several. You already have the links to all of my press, both as a filmmaker and for specific feature films. Again, laziness on your part (or intentionally pretending it doesn't exist).

3. The lack of publicity is just another LAZY attempt to attack. Google the film! We have had more than 100 articles, interviews, reviews and coverage around the world and we have more coming out everyday. Sorry Sonny you couldn’t do that on your own for “Snow Zombies” Seems from MY PERSONAL experiences if your film is good enough, everyone you contact will want to cover it. Funny thing is that’s exactly what we based our marketing plan on and its working.

Let's see how well that "if your film is good enough, they'll contact you" works for your screenings. Ask the students are Rutgers how that worked out for you.

That's not a personal insult, although you will take it as such. It is constructive criticism.

4. Funny how someone holds the 2,000 facebook fans as a derogatory number considering I have looked up the past 20 films currently being distributed by companies that have approached US, and not one of them had over 1,000.

And yet it's only 2% of YOUR goal. I didn't set the target at 1,000,000 - you guys did. You don't seem to be getting anywhere near the numbers you wanted. That must be soul crushingly disappointing to set the bar so high and not even get to 10% within a few months of the deadline.


5. For the interested person that asked to know more about the facebook platform. Its called Flick Launch and the owners name is Craig he is a great guy and strangely eager to help me prove exactly what I have been trying to scream over Sonny - VOD is not a someday weapon to indie filmmakers IT IS TODAY AND NOW, tomorrow all the skeptical Sonny’s will be doing it.

Yes, the "skeptics" like Sonnyboo who said....

VOD is a growing business model, but it isn't making any filmmakers a ton of money yet. I do believe that GRATWICK is correct that in the future VOD will be the place where filmmakers can make up a lot of profit, but that is still several years away. Gareth Edwards did it with MONSTERS, releasing it on VOD before a theatrical run in several countries. MONSTERS still made the majority of its money from the traditional DVD/Blu Ray release and rentals.

Again, perhaps there is some sort of tax rebate for your public or private education. Is it possible to investigate the recourse your parents might have? You don't seem to be able to read cohorent sentences.

3. I'm not the least bit surprised you would base your gossip and opinions on who a person really is from an online forum. Very narrow minded and judgemental much like your objections to me and my blastfamous plans.

First off, it's "Blasphemous", not BLAST. I don't want to be a teacher, but your spelling and grammar are so horrendous, I feel like finding your elementary school and burning it to the ground. Also, no one has ever referred to it as blasphemous or wrong. Just not as likely to succeed by the hypothetical-or-sometimes-real-depending-on-the-moment-$1-$2 million-"tops"-distribution from Lionsgate or Universal. Where DO you stand on that topic by the way? Was it solely hypothetical? Were there actual deals put on the table in front of you as you at one point said or not?

Secondly, why is it so hard to imagine people taking the direct things you write or say in videos as a bad way to base their opinions on you?

You can look at some of their comments with whatever rose colored glasses you so choose but I won't wear them.

What about the "batshit-crazy-flying-off-the-handle-taking-things-personal-that-aren't" glasses? Have you considered taking those off?

I HAVE A CHALLENGE FOR YOU SONNY.

Seeing how you’re so desperate to continue to try and shove in my face the lack of profits we’ve made for a film you have been repeatedly told will not be released till October 1st I ask you give me the same opportunity to talk to you from that type of position.

I challenge you Sonny to a filmmaker debate about distribution held LIVE on ustream or any other host site that works for you ONE WEEK after my film is released on October 1st. Im challenging you NOW before a ton of people watch it and I look like I’m trying to stick it to you.

Right now whether I succeed or fail I will show my face online live and face the music, will YOU??

I honestly do not care enough about you or your movie. You are posting on a forum I have been a member of for 8 years, making threads and posts with my name on it. I am mildly amused by your antics, but they are wearing thin. Mostly due to the fact that it is getting more and more transparent that this is solely motivated by attention you are seeking. It's really kind of pathetic that you cannot let the work speak for itself, nor can you let your "success", as subjective as that may be, be the answers to the critics of your plan.

Stop wasting everyone's time. Come back after you have either succeeded or failed or simply post more of your videos about the journey getting to where you wind up. I will derive no pleasure IF (again, no absolutes from me) your movie fails or at least does not live up to your own goals. It has no affect on me either way. I am not jealous of other people’s successes and it does not make me feel better when others fail.

My sole interests lie in the fact that you keep writing to me here and you are nothing but a case study for an article you inspired that I am writing for Moviemaker Magazine. If you weren't lazy you would have already known I write for them and Videomaker Magazine as well as a freelance contributor for many online sites and print mags.
 
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4. Funny how someone holds the 2,000 facebook fans as a derogatory number considering I have looked up the past 20 films currently being distributed by companies that have approached US, and not one of them had over 1,000.

http://www.facebook.com/standingfirm

200K Plus fans... and being self distributed by a twenty three year old filmmaker.

You should be able to get yours up that high given the quality of the feature.
 
My sole interests lie in the fact that you keep writing to me here and you are nothing but a case study for an article you inspired that I am writing for Moviemaker Magazine. If you weren't lazy you would have already known I write for them and Videomaker Magazine as well as a freelance contributor for many online sites and print mags.

Pretty much the exact reason why filmmakers should beware of how they post on forums!

Moviemaker's still in print and an incredible press opportunity to have. It's also an incredible one to lose via word of mouth.

Yikes
 
If you took a moment to read what I just wrote it explains in detail why I decided to post again.

I get the distinct impression the words I am writing do not even matter. The fact there doesn't seem to be a single person that can have an unbiased comment without personal anger is shocking.

If YOU took a few moments to read what people are actually saying without your own bizarre and inaccurate narrative of assumption, you would be a lot less angry.

I don't know you and have no bias towards you or your plan. I still don't think it has any merit. If anyone else wrote a thread that said they were thinking about turning down a studio deal worth $1-$2 million from the likes of Universal or Lionsgate in favor of self releasing, they would have gotten the same response from me or most people.

There is nothing productive in Sonny's words

For a bunch of filmmakers that spend everyday aspisiring to turn dreams into reality it really is a shame that Sonny and his limits are such a respected and admired voice for each of you.

And you are more than entitled to feel that way. It's quite alright to disagree, you know.


I now have countless articles, confessions from unbiased unknown audience members and a ton of reviews yet none of those things are weighed into my credibility. I can bring documented proof of my support and the fact that our plan is working and growing in strength everyday and no one seems interested in facts and projections. Hell forget the fact we still have 115 days to continue building.

You haven't presented these. Also, no one is reading about your movie from anywhere but your posts and even on other websites, they are your own press release, NOT an article written by the site or magazine.

The fact I said my film is "disgustingly good" and it offends everyone, making you HATE my plan is really sad. Did it ever occur to any of you that arrogant or not maybe he is RIGHT??

The two things are mutually exclusive. You having such arrogance, when completely unknown and boasting of getting "tops" a $1-$2 million dollar offer from the likes of Universal or Lionsgate, and now that may or may not be true and only hypothetical, only serve to make people not like you. Your plan seems more likely to fail on it's own merits, or lack thereof.


FYI - P.A. SUCKED!!! Had shitty dialogue, shitty production value, and a shitty story yet it went on to make 100 million dollars. YES that piece of shit was promoted by Paramount BUT what do you think would have happened to Oren if as a FIRST TIME filmmaker he had the nerve to come on here and post that Paramount wants to pick up his film and do a wide theatrical release with it?

Sonny would have "IMPLIED" he was a lying arrogant fool to.

No, if he claimed he got a million dollar offer from Paramount, I would show the articles where that is a lie. He only got $300,000 from Paramount and that was a deal brokered by Steven Spielberg when his own DreamWorks company passed on Paranormal Activity. As every moron who uses Paranormal Activity as an example, you have to understand - it was screened at a horror festival in 2007, and Spielberg's assistant saw it, liked it and showed a copy to him. Then he got in there and re-worked the edit then helped sell it to Paramount for $300,000, not $1-$2 million. So, the lesson learned is that even with Steven f**ing Spielberg brokering your deal, an HD movie with no name stars is worth $300,000 not a penny more. So who on earth thinks they have something worth more than that?

Surely, through the haze of self love you have for your first film, you can see where skepticism enters the scene when Spielberg cannot obtain $1-$2 million for worldwide rights from a first time feature film with no name stars. Come ON, man, even with your own enormous ego, you can at least COMPREHEND why people were skeptical from post #1 of your claims to be offered "tops" $1-$2 million from Lionsgate or Universal....

So yeah I see Sonny as a dream crusher for me and others and I refuse to let him be an unchallenged voice for WHY NOT?

Therein is your problem. You see me as a dreamcrusher? You are a delusional. Keep challenging a voice saying words that exist solely in your mind.

EXAMPLE
Steve says we all have to take it up the ass for ever cause we will NEVER be able to accomplish or reach levels Steve couldnt reach.

My apologies Steve, I was refering to Sonny and was under the impression his name was also Steve.

I do in fact apologize when I am in the wrong.

Where is my apology because there is no such quote from me either? Prove it isn't personal for you by apologizing when you can't come up with that quote from me. HYPOCRITE (correct spelling of the word when I type it, of course).

I think many of the misunderstandings in this thread and the previous one stem from some of the conotations and undertones in many of the outspoken posts against me. They were clearly written and intended to be insults and insinuations in a PC fashion. When I recognize these comments for exactly what they are - disguised PERSONAL ATTACKS - I respond to them directly.

Or you misunderstood, took things personally, then made actual personal attacks.... just sayin' (because that's what happened).


I've researched all of Sonny's wonderfully helpful posts.

Is anyone else as creeped out by this quote as I am?

Sadly, I haven’t researched you. I took a cursory look at some YouTube videos, read 1 reviews, got bored, and then started editing on a TV show I work for. I have a life and you and your movie don’t rate very high on my priorities.

There many but specifically 7 of them I could directly dispute and bring an established industry DP onto the board to directly counter some of his "advice" as flat out WRONG, inexperienced, or much more difficult than other options but why bother everyone loves the advice they get from a career amatuer.

I am not a D.P. I barely ever operate a camera.

Why bother? Because it might help the people asking questions by getting opposing points of view from an industry professional! That's what this forum is actually about. I think you might have missed the point of Indie Talk then.

Hell forget the fact we still have 115 days to continue building.

Hey, since you are so pestered by me being a "teacher"; that sounds like a perfect excuse to do some arithmetic!

115 days and only 2,000 or so fans on Facebook! Okay class, how many new fans a day does that mean the Perfect House needs in order to meet its goal of 1,000,000 fans by Oct 2011 on average?

1,000,000 - 2,000 = 998,000 / 115 = 8,678

So 8,678 new fans a day on average.

Now class, do you think writing responses on Indie Talk that are derogatory and inciting people against another member will:

a. Help get thousands of fans a day

or

b. Not help get thousands of fans a day

or

c. The poster might be better served working on getting fans instead of posting ridiculous claims and self aggrandizing statements?


I HAVE A CHALLENG E FOR YOU SONNY.

No, I have a challenge for you. Why not shut up, follow your plan, and then come back here when you have all this money and success, then try gloating then? It might work better. As, I don't think anyone anywhere is buying your "Guess what? We did it!" line of nonsense since you haven't actually done anything yet.

Also, I challenge you to use my actual name
The comedy is starting to wear out. The math joke was worth the writing for entertainment, but that’s about all I can milk out of this thread. All we’ve got is some yahoo who wanted to pretend to be a big shot and claim he was offered a $1-$2 million dollar deal, TOPS mind you, from the “likes of” Lionsgate or Universal and then can’t understand why no one takes him seriously when he thinks it’s a better idea to self distribute.
From beginning to end, this is nothing but a self promotion for a first time filmmaker who is too in love with his own work to see it with any kind of perspective and obviously have no experience in the business. He likes attention, even when it’s negative, so here we are now.

The End.


mods, it's time to lock another thread.
 
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