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How I made money from music

G

gorillaonabike

I've seen plenty of threads on here complaining about film makers who aren't paying for compositions. Also, I have seen threads complaining that it's difficult to make money from music. I beg to differ and would suggest that composers / musicians who are complaining are either not good enough or are doing the wrong thing to market themselves. This comes from my own, personal experience of making money from music.

The first time I was paid for music was over 25 years ago when I was a young teenager and I didn't give a damn. I was too young and didn't realise that most of the musical world would have given their right arm for that kind of opportunity. Strangely, my parents did everything to stop me including not allowing me to leave the house when I was offered money to perform for a James Bond film, again while still in my teens. A few years later, still as a teenager, I managed to get out of the house and recorded for 'Man in Music,' a Channel Four documentary in the era when there were only five channels in the UK and viewing figures were in the millions.

I was decent enough to be paid to rehearse (yes, rehearsals are all paid for) and then perform in front of 3,500 paying punters plus they threw in food, drink etc... Even in my teens, at one point I was so busy that I was being paid every weekend for my musical skills.

I was good but not amazing by any stretch of the imagination. The reason I was constantly making money from my skills is because I ended up constantly meeting people who paid money to buy music.

Even when I went to Uni (to study business), I found a bar with a piano, played piano and the owner was impressed enough that he booked me every weekend I wanted to be there. Before I walked in there, the piano was just for decoration but after he heard my skills, he thought I could make him money. So he paid me money.

One guy I shared a stage with on numerous occasions as a teenager is now a composer, musician, author and an extremely wealthy guy. He uses 10 agents in different countries to market his work (if you don't have an agent, well let's just say you are making your life harder). He did this by being an incredible musician (much better than I ever was) and has nurtured his contacts over two decades.

Composers have to remember is if they approach people who aren't interested in paying money, they will not be paid money. However, if composers / musicians etc... approach people who actually pay money for music, well, guess what will happen. It's just common sense.

If you don't know how to hook up with people who buy music - well that's for you to figure it out but I'll give you a clue what not to do - don't leave it to the internet. Personally, I did it through going to an audition, demonstrating my technical skills and getting booked. This then put me in a position where I ended up meeting lots more people who wanted to pay money for music which meant I made money from rehearsing, performing and composing. Even today, I get the occasional offer and one of my contacts at the BBC recently offered me money to help out at a rehearsal and I've been off the circuit for over 20 years!!! It wasn't very much money and I actually rebuked my contact for coming to me with something which was beneath me but I suspect it's more money than some composers have ever made in their entire lives.

So all of this to say - if you're good enough - find people who will pay you, not amateur film makers like me. There are plenty of people out there who buy music but I'll start you off with a little clue - you have to go to them - if you're waiting for them to discover you via the internet, you're going to be waiting a very long time.
 
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Markus S said:
It is fascinating how often unpaid work is getting the credit of the learning experience. I'm not directing this at you personally (as I don't know you or your work), but professional work is an incredibly great learning experience. You work in a real project, with people who do this for a living and you even get paid for it. And it never stops : Every new project is a challenge and a new learning experience, so there is no need to wait until you know everything to get into a professional project.

What do I mean by perfecting your art?

You are offering a product for a market. This product is custom music (including production). Is your product ready yet? Is your orchestra balanced correctly? Is your rock mix tight? Do you have a coherent musical form? A good theme (depending on style)? Do you stand out musically in any way?

If your product is not good enough yet, work on it until you consider it is good enough to be commercially released. If it is not good enough, why would someone pay for it?

Then find people (markets, projects) who are willing to pay you, and who CAN pay you. These people do make money from their art, be it in film, games, commercials, library music, where ever.

The problem with working for free, is that it may side track you, get you away from the aim of producing commercial music, it may get you into circles of people who work constantly for free (nothing wrong with that, if the aim is not commercial), these projects may use up out your time and your energy, while you could focus on more prosperous markets and develop your "commercial potential" in your art.

Of course I am replying to the original post : If you WANT to get paid, make a living from music that is, get the product right, and bring it to the right people (market it correctly) and do not accept unpaid work. If you are in there for the fun, none of this applies of course.
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I completely understand your point. I'm not dismissing the importance of perfecting your craft. We are singing from the same hymn sheet. I'm agreeing with everything you have said.

But, from what I've put in bold. Is the point I'm trying to disect.

Can you (While only working PAID roles to start your career, as opposed to unpaid, or a mixture of both) "perfect" your craft to such a standard that is significantly above those you are competing against, and who are working for free, to be preferred for the position?

Considering that a position that is "paid" will be advertised. Will recieve 100+ entries, is turning down unpaid work (For experience in the early parts of your career. Projects you truly believe would benefit you, and it's efficient, professional, and trusted work) while you await paid work, giving yourself the best possible opportunity to truly perfect your art, and compete with the guy who's worked 15 projects in eight months, the guy who's worked 20 projects in a year?

I can't help but think that such a situation would arise...

Two applicants have survived. Both of equal standard. Both have worked in the industry for two years. You couldn't choose between them. They're both fantastic guys, and you have the day to make the decision.

Applicant #1 has worked 18 projects. 10 Paid/ 8 Unpaid.
Applicant#2 has worked 8 projects. All paid.

Both of their material is inseperable. Their references perfect. They are just what you're looking for.

(Note that I've stated the time-spans are the same, suggesting that Applicant#1 while also working paid work, has found the time to work for Free, at the beginning, and in projects he thought beneficial to his development in terms of variety/worthy due to the artists behind them, great crew etc.)

Who would you choose?

My point is purely that working for "free" in the right situations, can put you in the same desired company that from which future paid work will follow, and vice-versa.

And the emphasis to which I stressed "the start of his/hers" career, paid work may not be preferable, and comes with its own risks. If "professionalism" comes with funds, then a failure/dissapointing project, may result in the turning of heads, and the following company that they reside with (in the opposite direction). Meaning that working those free projects to gain the experience, without the added pressure that comes with being compensated, may have been a helpful option to aid your preperation.

It depends on the person to decipher whether or not a situation will benefit them.

Like I said, we're in agreeance, bud. Anymore, and we'll be sounding like parrots. :lol:
 
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Markus S said:
Well, I am sorry, but working for free is certainly not beating the crowd, in a place where everyone is ready to work for free. (If that is what you mean)

If you want to get paid, here is a simple rule :

Do not accept unpaid work.

It may seem stupid, but it is as true as it is simple. If you do not accept unpaid work, you are not losing money since you wouldn't have been paid anyway. While you are not working on an unpaid project you can :

1. work on your art, make it professional, push it to it's limits.

2. find paid work.

You may think you need the credit. Sorry, unless you are doing the next unexpected new comer hit (you could also play the lottery in this case) the credit will not get you far.

You need the upcoming projects? If they are not payed either, you do not need them.

You are promised to get paid on the next project (if the budget is there)? Sorry, no guarantee here, it may never happen.

You need to get a feeling for what your talent is worth. Fix yourself a price, how much is your work, your time, your knowledge worth? If you do you will not feel comfortable in working for free anyway.

I also agree that if you are paid nothing the perceived value of your work is nothing. Simple as that. 100*nothing=nothing. 200.000*nothing, still nothing. You do not earn any respect from your "employer" if you work for nothing, at least from my very limited experience as composer on no budget projects. In example, I did the music for a first short film almost 10 years ago, great project, no pay (they even asked for complete buy-out - music should appear in no other film). When I understood there WAS money I asked to get paid and got fired - they didn't even care to tell me I had to ask why there were no news from them. The film is STILL not released and I have been making a good living as music composer since then (including good money for the score I made for them). So, what did I miss?

IMO the only valid reasons to work for free are : You are doing a good friend a favor. You love the project so much, you just do it "for yourself" - maybe you are even co-writer for this project, maybe you have 100% artistic liberty, that may be something to consider.
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I whole heartedly agree with this post. You've said what I was thinking......... but stated in much more eloquent terms!!
 
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Great post. Very good advice, I think.

As people have pointed out, though - the world is a very different place now than just a little while ago.

It's also worth noting that you (apparently) got started and rolling before you had to deal with the practical concerns of staying alive. And you were also (apparently) physically in a place where opportunity was to be found.

Still - I think the principles apply.
Put the phrases "I am an amateur composer. Hire me." and "I am a professional composer. Hire me." side by side, and the use is pretty obvious.
 
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I don't believe there is any one correct path but doing free or low paying jobs to meet people and get a body of work together was a successful path for me. This was my way to network.
I have had many situations where a free job evolved into paying ones because of the people I met and the work I did.

Eventually I just reached a point where I didn't want to work for free anymore. It was like that point in a relationship where you know you want out. I no longer needed the experience. Occasionally now days something comes up (no/low budget) that I just love and want to be a part of and I make a decision to do it based on the project but not often.
 
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Hey guys, thank you for the feedback. I'm not saying I did it the RIGHT way and there is no other way, but at some point, it is you who has to decide if you are a professional or not, if your talent is worth money (and how much) or not. You will have to walk away from non budget or low budget stuff to make a living. You cannot offer for free what you sell elsewhere, it's not professional. Either is has a price or it hasn't. Do not make the value of your talent dependent of what other think (the budget of music is .. , is it OK?), but have an opinion on it yourself.

Also think of this : the day you want to get paid your contact may chose to work with another free guy, who is starting out, it's a risk - it may kill the market. I also found it a lot easier to get into professional negotiation from the start rather than trying to justify that all of a sudden you are a professional and you are worth..

I don't want to question anyone directly here, I totally respect your view and way of doing, I just want to give some personal "business" advice if you want to make a living at writing music and I hope it helps.
 
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This thread is getting more and more interesting to read! Always good to see different perspectives. I do agree that if you want to be professional, be professional. 99% of the time, if you don't ask for money, you won't get it. I also agree with you, Markus, that the people who give you work for free are not likely to give you work when you want to be paid. Most of the specific contacts that I have are not going to be directly useful when I decide "no more free work". But on the other hand, not only am I learning more about composing for film, I'm learning to make contacts. Learning to network and meet people is definitely a skill that you need (and it sounds like you have) to make a go as a professional composer.

From where I stand, I'm definitely not ready. I'm not composing/recording as fast as I'd like, or to the quality that I'd like to achieve. That isn't to say that I don't get paid for any of my work; I always take paying gigs, and never turn down money and/or gifts of appreciation (read: beer) that people send my way. Do I hope to be professional? Of course (I'm on a 5-10 year plan). Do I work on more projects with people who treat me better? Again, of course. I'm definitely still in a learning phase of my career and translating "director speak" into musical language has been far more educational than just rescoring old film scenes. I am also self-taught in everything. I can only assume that formal education helps you achieve that "I am professional now" attitude and confidence.

Anyway, enough babble. I'm enjoying the thread and it's always great hearing about others' experiences. We're all in this together!
 
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JoshL said:
This thread is getting more and more interesting to read! Always good to see different perspectives. I do agree that if you want to be professional, be professional. 99% of the time, if you don't ask for money, you won't get it.
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If I may challenge this, my experience was the opposite. Because I was constantly dealing with people who routinely paid money for music, they automatically paid me. When I was dealing with people who did not buy music, I did not get paid.
 
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gorillaonabike said:
If I may challenge this, my experience was the opposite. Because I was constantly dealing with people who routinely paid money for music, they automatically paid me. When I was dealing with people who did not buy music, I did not get paid.
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I think we're on more or less the same page here. In your experience, you found more opportunities than you were necessarily looking for (being good at networking, etc. Again, definitely one of my own weaknesses). Markus' point was that if you don't put yourself out there as a professional, you'll find, as you mentioned, the people who do not buy music rather than those that do. His suggestion is sort of filtering them out in order to find the people, like you did, who DO buy music.

Both of you agree that if you want money, find the buyers. My point was right now I'm dealing with more nonbuyers because I have a long way to go. I am, at heart, arrogant and think I'm awesome of course, but I'm a long way from professional level (http://www.reverbnation.com/joshloughrey will let you judge for yourself some of my recent score-work). I've had no musical education, so free work and stacks of theory books are my school (though I wouldn't mind taking one of the Berklee film music classes, if/when I get the money for it). When I'm better at it, I can follow Markus' advice to find the sort of people you have experience with; that is to say, the people who will pay money for my work.

There's also a difference between "can't buy music" and "won't buy music". Again, there are directors that I work with that slide me a little cash when they can (I just got a little a month ago for something I did in January). One director is very broke, but an EXCEPTIONALLY talented guy. He will start getting paid, and when he does, I know he'll pay me (he's a musician himself so he understands/appreciates the role of music in film, and he really likes my work). But that's another story, and evaluating my contacts is a task for later down the road!
 
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JoshL said:
I think we're on more or less the same page here. In your experience, you found more opportunities than you were necessarily looking for (being good at networking, etc. Again, definitely one of my own weaknesses). Markus' point was that if you don't put yourself out there as a professional, you'll find, as you mentioned, the people who do not buy music rather than those that do. His suggestion is sort of filtering them out in order to find the people, like you did, who DO buy music.

Both of you agree that if you want money, find the buyers. My point was right now I'm dealing with more nonbuyers because I have a long way to go. I am, at heart, arrogant and think I'm awesome of course, but I'm a long way from professional level (http://www.reverbnation.com/joshloughrey will let you judge for yourself some of my recent score-work). I've had no musical education, so free work and stacks of theory books are my school (though I wouldn't mind taking one of the Berklee film music classes, if/when I get the money for it). When I'm better at it, I can follow Markus' advice to find the sort of people you have experience with; that is to say, the people who will pay money for my work.

There's also a difference between "can't buy music" and "won't buy music". Again, there are directors that I work with that slide me a little cash when they can (I just got a little a month ago for something I did in January). One director is very broke, but an EXCEPTIONALLY talented guy. He will start getting paid, and when he does, I know he'll pay me (he's a musician himself so he understands/appreciates the role of music in film, and he really likes my work). But that's another story, and evaluating my contacts is a task for later down the road!
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If you don't think your work is yet up to the level of a top professional, then don't charge the rate of a top professional, but don't give it away for free either. Set a fee ( it may be a low one), decide what you are worth and then stick to it. If someone wants you to do a job for them tell them it will cost you x amount of $, or your hourly rate is so and so. If they say no and go get someone else for free then so be it. That's life and business. If you try to please everyone who wants freebies you will likely get styuck in that rut. Believe in yourself and the value of your work and others will start to believe in you too.
 
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The more money there is involved in an industry the more competition there is to get into it.

Speaking as a former composer/musician, my opinion is that it is next to impossible to personally contact a major music performer. The closest you can get is the star's agent. You often have to pay for information on how to contact the right people. There are some vicious characters in the business, like people who will "offer" to take your demo to the star as a "favor" to you. There are scam organizations claiming to be acting in the composer's benefit, but that really serve a different segment of the industry. For example an international songwriters' organization that promises they have contact information for stars in the US pop market, but never deliver; instead give you contacts for minor markets, like in the Czech pop industry, that are looking for music.

One more scam I almost forgot is guys who come out of nowhere and post on internet forums, acting like they're big money. They pretend to be giving helpful advice to others, but after you finish reading them, you realize they have really said nothing except how great they are. Beware.
 
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It's good to get your music into the hands of publishers who are constantly being approached by producers looking for music. They'll take 50% but it's worth it if they can license something of yours.
 
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It is no doubt difficult to get in touch with the now-already-famous stars and publishers. Especially if you are not one yourself.

But it's an extremely good idea to surround yourself with excellent people. That means talented directors, good actors fresh out of acting school, other musicians who is passionate for music and what not. They may not become the next James Cameron or Hans Zimmer, but if one of them becomes a bit better off, they'll be happy to help you.
 
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This is a very good post, im searching for this pad and he said many reasonable points, but i still agree with Deniz Akbulut, talent is not the main factor, i know severly good composers or/ and musicians and they are in a very bad positions refering to jobs. If you make a thread and do it for free they will think your music is bad or whortless, but if you charge some will said its to much or some will say nothing.

Also the image or promotion you give is very important i think, i have know musicians that are not so good but they have a super PC and their sound is incredible or they have a website and that way they look important.

By the way i want to say, here in Mexico with the narco-war thing, many bars are closed and the local filmmakers dont want to make films in the open air for fear, so that its another negative factor. Im not saying its impossible or im closing bundaries, im just commenting, as i said, this thread has interesting and usefull opinions, thank you for sharing it!
 
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Synia said:
It is no doubt difficult to get in touch with the now-already-famous stars and publishers. Especially if you are not one yourself.

But it's an extremely good idea to surround yourself with excellent people. That means talented directors, good actors fresh out of acting school, other musicians who is passionate for music and what not. They may not become the next James Cameron or Hans Zimmer, but if one of them becomes a bit better off, they'll be happy to help you.
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I think the individual who commented on meeting famous stars and may be referring to me as a scam artist (thanks for that, very nice of you if you are) is writing about pop music. However, in the classical world, knowing the superstar artist is not always relevant.

Take, for example, Catherine Jenkins, the great Welsh mezzo who has the world at her feet. She is a fabulous singer, interprets intelligently, is by all accounts a lovely person, attractive, very well managed and makes loads of money because she has crossed over into the popular consciousness. What I discovered is she has a manager who selects the arrangements she sings 'live' and my understanding (which could be wrong) is sometimes this is as much a commercial as an artistic decision.

When I think about it, this makes sense as this leaves her to focus on the singing. This means the person on her team who selects the arrangement and pays the money is the person to deal with, not CJ herself and he (it is a 'he' not a 'she' I believe) deals with maximising her revenue and minimising costs while at the same time having a strong, artistic vision.

That being said, there is one classical star I would be able to contact fairly easily as I went to school with him but as he writes all his own arrangements and was a helluva lot better at composition than I am, I don't think that would be particularly helpful.
 
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Thank you for this very insightful post. I really appreciate all the advise.

I hope some of my songs will make it as movie soundtracks someday. With such a huge pool of extremely talented budding songwriters/musicians on the internet these days, my career as a singer-songwriter/composer seems bleak. Nevertheless, I'm not giving up hope, for music has always been my first love.
 
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Hi,
Interesting to know how you made money from music and no wonder people related to music industry earns a lot. Your post is very informative and will be of great help for those who are new in film industry.
 
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