Question about using a deadcat.

H

harmonica44

When it comes to recording sound, distributors told the director of the feature I am helping with, that they want 'clean' dialogue tracks. I read this is common of distributors on here before. A deadcat is meant to cut down on wind. But if it's a windy day, you can still hear the wind. It just sounds really good as oppose to recording it without a deadcat.

So since you can still hear the wind with the deadcat on, is it worth even bothering to record a scene in the wind, since you will not get a clean dialogue track therefore?

Thanks.
 
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I suspect you're doing it wrong/using the wrong equipment/technique.

You're going to tell me no, you're doing it right.

I'm going to say there are plenty of professionals that can achieve exactly what you're describing.

Then you're going to come back with some obscure reference to some situation where farmer joe, his daughter and bob the taxi driver (you thought I was going to say builder, didn't you?) got the same result.

We're all going to cringe, cry and die a little on the inside.

So about we end this thread here, ok?
 
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If you have solid technique and quality equipment you will get solid, quality results.

If you have crappy technique and crappy equipment you will get crappy results.

If you have crappy technique and solid equipment you will get crappy results.



BTW, a blimp & dead cat does not eliminate wind, it reduces the affect the wind will have on the mic. So if the blimp & dead cat reduces the affect of the wind on the mic by 75% it's a win, right? Even if the blimp & dead cat reduces the affect of a high wind by just 30% it's a win, right? So what's your problem? The dialog editor gets what s/he gets and must make the decision to use what's there, or to use wilds, or to use alts, or to use notify the SSE that the dialog is unsalvageable and that ADR should be done. And even then the final decision is up to the rerecording mixer(s).

You are always looking for perfect; perfect does not exist. Your own knowledge, skills and technique can get you closer to perfect as you gain experience. But then, you have no knowledge, no skills, no technique and no substantial experience. And for some reason you refuse to learn from what experience you do have.
 
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Yep it's a win cause it reduces the wind. I know it will not eliminate the wind completely, but my point is, is that what's the point of a deadcat, if they want a clean dialogue track anyway. Might as well just wait and shoot on a day with hardly any wind. I don't want all the effort to be thrown out the window, cause I believe in the projects. They said they want need a clean dialogue track for distribution, and if you can still hear the wind, then it's not a clean track is it? I just don't want the whole movie to be rejected for distribution just because it was not my problem, and it's the producers problem. Maybe I should tell the producer that the wind can still be heard, and we should wait for day when it's not windy, instead of being rejected for wind being on the track. Or we can always do ADR if we have to I guess.
 
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Did you pay any attention to my post? The production sound team does the best that they can under the given circumstances. It is the job if the DX editor(s) under the direction of the SSE to clean up the dialog, use wilds/alts or decide to replace substandard dialog with ADR. The ReRecording mixer(s) are provided with all three options (the original, edited and ADRed dialog) and decide with the director during pre-mix process of the mix which of the three options to use.

You will NEVER have optimum conditions. If each craft waited for optimum location conditions films would never be shot except on sound stages.

Got it yet?
 
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Perhaps you're not using it correctly or you have bad technique but a Deadcat and blimp should really reduce wind noise even on pretty moderate wind speeds. Try different positions, try facing it with the wind direction, give the Deadcat a brush against the fur (more surface area, greater wind reduction), ask the crew to move somewhere slightly out of the wind if its really that bad and they don't have the money for ADR.

What are you using anyway? Just a Deadcat or a full blimp system?
 
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I could reiterate the whole thing about wind protection minimizing wind noise (across the mic capsule), but not the sound of wind (through the trees, across grass, around buildings), but it's already been mentioned and it won't be heeded advice anyway. But...

It occurs to me from the context of the question that they want stems... which would include a "clean" dialog track (just the dialog) separate from everything else. This facilitates dubbing for international distribution. Maybe I'm wrong here, but it makes more sense to me.
 
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harmonica44 said:
So since you can still hear the wind with the deadcat on, is it worth even bothering to record a scene in the wind, since you will not get a clean dialogue track therefore?
Click to expand...

It is extremely rare that the PSM would not even attempt to record the dialogue, even if they are absolutely sure it can't be used in the final product. Even if unusable in the mix, the production dialogue may still act as an invaluable guide for syncing ADR. The only time you would not even attempt to record production dialogue is if the conditions are so extreme that ALL the dialogue is completely inaudible above the noise. I've only encountered this situation once as far as I can remember and that was when filming a storm scene, where they used two 9ft fans and a small jet engine to create wind/rain and the dialogue was utterly inaudible!

What Alcove said in his last post was exactly 100% spot on!

harmonica44 said:
They said they want need a clean dialogue track for distribution, and if you can still hear the wind, then it's not a clean track is it? I just don't want the whole movie to be rejected for distribution just because it was not my problem, and it's the producers problem. Maybe I should tell the producer that the wind can still be heard, and we should wait for day when it's not windy, instead of being rejected for wind being on the track. Or we can always do ADR if we have to I guess.
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The producers need to check very carefully and find out exactly what deliverables the distributor requires! Exactly what is required can vary considerably and can have VERY significant time and cost implications! I cannot emphasize this enough, I've seen several projects which had to be abandoned entirely at the very final hurdle and a number of others have terrible problems/delays, all because the inexperienced producer was ignorant/stupid and didn't understand what was required, what it would cost and therefore didn't budget for it appropriately!!

It's not that they want a clean dialogue track per se but that in addition to a complete mix they want a complete mix without dialogue, an M&E mix. If you have other sound/s on your dialogue track then obviously these will also be missing from your M&E mix and you will have an unacceptable M&E mix, hence why your dialogue needs to be clean, not perfectly clean, you can get away with a bit of noise/sound but not much. What AcousticalAl stated was essentially correct, this requirement is for foreign distribution and dubbing in foreign languages. Note Well: Even if the distributor/broadcaster does not intend to distribute this particular film internationally they will still have their set of required deliverables which MUST be met and will almost certainly include an M&E mix and may include various other stem mixes/sub-mixes and may also require various different channel format mixes as well. Hence why it's so important to find out EXACTLY what the distributor requires BEFORE the budget is finalised!!

G
 
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Okay thanks. The dialogue is the main thing that is recorded on set so far, and we plan on adding the M & E afterwords.

Sometimes their are sounds you cannot avoid on the dialogue track though. Like a walk and talk scene down the hallway for example. Even though the actors are not wearing shoes, you can still hear footsteps with socks on and pants making walking noises, during the dialogue. We will add the shoe sounds in afterwords for that one.

As far as having a clean dialogue track for foreign languages, their shouldn't be too much unwanted background noise for foreign language redubbing potential. Some locations do not allow me to turn off the fridge and things like that though.

As far as being very careful as to what the distributor wants, the director/producer told me that all the distributors said was that they want a clean dialogue track, and were not very specific otherwise.
 
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headbashwall.gif


Dialog is the ONLY thing you record on the set.

Do you actually know what an M&E is?
 
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Music and effects according to what this site tells me:

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/M&E

And it's not true that dialogue is not the only thing that can be recorded on set. Wind, footsteps, clothes making noises, can all be recorded.

I am not a pro PSM, so don't be surprised if I say something uneducated. I just take these jobs to get experience on sets and make contacts, like I've been told to do.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Music and effects according to what this site tells me:

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/M&E

And it's not true that dialogue is not the only thing that can be recorded on set. Wind, footsteps, clothes making noises, can all be recorded.

I am not a pro PSM, so don't be surprised if I say something uneducated. I just take these jobs to get experience on sets and make contacts, like I've been told to do.
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That's great that you are taking jobs on sets. But you should study up on the job you are going to do. If you are doing audio work on a film, read some books on audio and watch tutorials. If you are going to be a camera assistant, read books on cinematography, being a camera assistant, and watch tutorials. Absorb as much knowledge as you can.

Also, if you want to become a director and eventually do a feature film (which is what it sounds like you want to do), the best thing you could do is make short films. Write, get some actors, shoot, edit, post.

Good luck :)
 
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Yep for sure. I have doing my own audio practice based on tutorials and what I've been told on here. However, so far the producers I have worked for, are breaking all the audio rules, and have not given me locations, with the conditions that are required. The tutorials will tell me what kind of conditions I need, a quiet place for example, but if I tell that to the producer, they will say no can do, and I will have to work within a condition with noise, even though the tutorials told me not too in the first place.

I don't blame the producers though of course, they do the best they can. Once I am done the two features I am helping out on, I will get back to making a short of my own.
 
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harmonica44 said:
Yep for sure. I have doing my own audio practice based on tutorials and what I've been told on here. However, so far the producers I have worked for, are breaking all the audio rules, and have not given me locations, with the conditions that are required. The tutorials will tell me what kind of conditions I need, a quiet place for example, but if I tell that to the producer, they will say no can do, and I will have to work within a condition with noise, even though the tutorials told me not too in the first place.

I don't blame the producers though of course, they do the best they can. Once I am done the two features I am helping out on, I will get back to making a short of my own.
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Explain to them that you will either have to do ADR or find a different location.

Also, I'd recommend reading some books on audio during production. I'm sure Alcove or APE know some :D

I'm hoping to see that short.

Good luck H44 :cool:
 
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harmonica44 said:
As far as having a clean dialogue track for foreign languages, their shouldn't be too much unwanted background noise for foreign language redubbing potential. Some locations do not allow me to turn off the fridge and things like that though.
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How much is "shouldn't be too much"? Knowing the answer to this question is one of the things which separates a distributable film from a non-distributable film and a professional from an amateur!

harmonica44 said:
As far as being very careful as to what the distributor wants, the director/producer told me that all the distributors said was that they want a clean dialogue track, and were not very specific otherwise.
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Then they aren't being careful or even close to it, they are being reckless!! The director/producer needs to have the exact delivery requirements in writing and they need to be absolutely certain they completely understand those requirements. Failure for the director/producer to do this is amateurish in the extreme and a gross dereliction of duty. By definition, a Producer's job is to produce something, a professional producer is someone who produces something to the professional standards required by paying clients, in this case a particular distributor. How can a Producer do this if he/she doesn't even know exactly what those standards/requirements are?

harmonica44 said:
However, so far the producers I have worked for, are breaking all the audio rules, and have not given me locations, with the conditions that are required... I don't blame the producers though of course, they do the best they can.
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I absolutely do blame the Producers and so will everyone else!! Doing the best they can is irrelevant, they either meet the distributor's requirements or they don't, end of story. If they don't meet the requirements no one will care why they haven't and self distribution will be their only option!

As PSM all you can do is inform the producer/director that a location is unsuitable and they'll likely have to ADR all or most of it. Once you've given them this information it's up to them what they do with it, all you can do is the best you can given the circumstances. Of course, decent usable ADR is going to cost them and unless it's just the odd word here or there it's going to make it much less likely a distributor will be interested in distributing their film but that's the producer's problem, NOT yours!

G
 
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