Shooting faster than 24 fps?

Hey guys, so 24p has been the "film look" standard until recently the Hobbit was shot at 48fps (with much criticism). Are there any other films that have been shot entirely at higher frame rates like that? What would be the advantages of this? Disadvantages? I've always shot at 24p and am curious about maybe trying 30p, despite people saying it has a "digital" look to it. What is your experience with higher framerates? Is it best for a newbie filmmaker (like myself) to stick to 24p in order to get the most professional look in the easiest way? Anything is helpful. Thanks!
 
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This is not about "shutter speed" at all. It's about frame rate. Those are very different things.

30P isn't as much a "digital" look at is is a "video" look. Naming conventions for frame rates have shifted over the last few years, which can make things a little confusing, but way back when video was said to run at 29.97 interlaced frames per second. Nowadays, that's referred to as 60i (60 interlaced frames per second), and you'll see people argue that it is NOT 29.97 frames but rather 60 fields - or, 60 individual moments in time - so it is more like 60P. Really, it's semantics. If you worked in TV 20 years ago, it was 29.97fps.

Why does this matter? Well, with the advent of progressive video in consumer and prosumer cameras and in different distribution platforms, the realtivity of frame rates had a much broader context. Whether you call in 29.97 interlaced frames per second or 60i, it still has the look of video like your local news. If you want a great example of the difference, compare "Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern" to "Anthony Bourdain: No Reservations." The former is shot 60i and the latter 24p.

30p video is going to look more like 60i, and 60i and 60p are going to look even more alike. You won't notice the biggest difference until you try and play the 60i material on a progressive display, in which case the interlacing will be shown.

The number of frames per second dictates the fluidity of motion. The human eye sees so many still images per second and the brain puts them together to create motion, and the fewer images per second the less smooth the motion artifacts will be. The more images per second, the more smooth the motion.

Shutter speed, on the other hand, dictates how sharp each individual image is. The shutter speed is how long each individual frame is exposed to light, so a slow shutter speed - say, 1/50th of a second - is going to capture more elapsed time in the one image than a fast shutter speed - say, 1/250th of a second. You cannot have a shutter speed that is slower than your FPS, so with 24P the slowest shutter speed available is 1/24. The general "rule" for shutter speed and basic motion picture is 180°, or a shutter speed that is twice the frame rate. So, for 24P that would be 1/48. For 30P it would be 1/60.

There are some who will argue that 24P is terrible because it does have a stuttery motion artifact to it, most noticeable on fast pans. It was originally standardized for film as a compromise between quality and cost: it was deemed the lowest frame rate possible for the brain to interpolate fluid motion, and the fewer frames per second shot meant fewer feet of film exposed for any one project which meant less money spent on film stock and processing. The challenge is that the viewing public, after 100 years of 24P on the big screen, is accustomed to the aesthetic and relates that to motion picture. Anything higher looks like video and doesn't seem as fancy or artistic as film. Video is cheap, right? It's used for the local news (though up until the 70s news footage was shot on film...).

On the other hand, 60i has had its place outside of news and network TV programming as many documentary producers on a shoestring budget have, over the last few decades, adopted lower-cost video cameras (SVHS, Hi8) to shoot their documentaries.

"The Hobbit" proved, I believe, that audiences largely recognize the aesthetic of 24p as something meaningful to motion picture, even if they don't get the differences on a technical level. Of course, the coveted "film look" is not obtained strictly by shooting 24P. Lensing, lighting, sound... there are many other elements that go into creating a truly cinematic aesthetic.

As for advantages, smoother motion capture with a higher frame rate (that mandates a higher shutter speed) can make compositing CGI much easier with sharper edges.

Pick your frame rate based on the aesthetic YOU want, and based on what you think is most justified in telling your story.
 
Great video find, Will.

WhiteOpus, you want to get the most professional look in the
easiest way then excellent lighting will do that. Maybe not the
"easiest" (nothing is easy in getting the most professional look)
but using light well will set your look apart from most videos
you see.
 
The most important thing in that wonderful video - That the frame rate ranks 17th as to what makes a movie look like film.

Color, lighting, framing, editing, et al - definitely contribute more to the 'film look' than frame rate.

That said, when watching the Hobbit films in 48 frames per second - it is definitely a completely different aesthetic, one that audiences are NOT used to.
 
Interesting video, Will. For a "final, definitive, and irrefutable" argument, he gives very little demonstrable evidence.

He is correct in his assertion that 24P, by itself, is not going to look like film. However, as I think audience reaction to "The Hobbit" demonstrated, if all else is equal (lensing, camera movement, lighting, sound, etc.) then a difference in frame rate can make or break it.
 
However, as I think audience reaction to "The Hobbit" demonstrated, if all else is equal (lensing, camera movement, lighting, sound, etc.) then a difference in frame rate can make or break it.
Perhaps I'm misreading this.

All else being equal 48fps wasn't popular with audiences and that frame rate has
not been adopted.
 
Perhaps I'm misreading this.

All else being equal 48fps wasn't popular with audiences and that frame rate has
not been adopted.

That was my point. In the video that Will linked, the guy asserts that 24P doesn't matter because it's not high on the list of things that matter to the "film" look. My point is that, while that is true and all else being equal, 24P DOES matter because anything else will stand out like a sore thumb. Audiences didn't like 48P, and I feel pretty safe in assuming that all else was equal in production value there, except for the frame rate.
 
Another question somewhat related to the thread here - so I have some footage that I shot at 24p but when I export it with Premiere it defaults at 29.97fps. Can anyone tell me why this conversion is happening? (I should mention that I am checking "match to source" in the render settings)
 
I think there are three reasons to shoot in 24p.

1. It does give the look audiences are use to when it comes to movies and will not be distracted or have to get use to a new framerate. 30 and 60 fps look like soap operas or porn and a lot of people find that look cheesy. Even if the lighting, art direction and depth of field are different than that style, part of that style still shows.

2. Less editing. If you are cutting something complicated, like a fight scene, where you have to cut on an exact frame, there are less frames to go through in 24fps, compared to something higher. Plus when adding VFX to your shots, it's less frames to have to go through as well. Makes things easier.

3. If you choose to have motion blur at the 180 degree shutter rule, to get the movie look even further, then 24fps is the best, because at a 1/50 shutter speed at 24fps, you are able to expose more light onto your frames, compared to 30fps at 1/60, or 60fps at 1/120. So for the occasional scene where you are unable to get a lot of light like an outdoor scene at night, under street lights, 24fps gives you a little more light.
 
Another question somewhat related to the thread here - so I have some footage that I shot at 24p but when I export it with Premiere it defaults at 29.97fps. Can anyone tell me why this conversion is happening? (I should mention that I am checking "match to source" in the render settings)

Using which camera?

Some cameras shoot 24p over 60i. In other words, the camera adds a pull-down and records the 24p footage at 29.97. If that's the case, and you did not remove the pull-down when you started the project, the computer still sees it as 29.97. Without knowing the camera you're using, there's no way to know for sure.

Did you properly set up your Premiere project? You need to tell the NLE what you're doing so that it looks for the right meta tags when it brings the footage in, and so that it sets the editing timeline to the proper frame rate.

The easiest place to start is to open one of your source clips, outside of Premiere, in QuickTime and then open the inspector window. Look at the frame rate there. Is it 29.97, or 23.976?
 
Using which camera?

Some cameras shoot 24p over 60i. In other words, the camera adds a pull-down and records the 24p footage at 29.97. If that's the case, and you did not remove the pull-down when you started the project, the computer still sees it as 29.97. Without knowing the camera you're using, there's no way to know for sure.

Did you properly set up your Premiere project? You need to tell the NLE what you're doing so that it looks for the right meta tags when it brings the footage in, and so that it sets the editing timeline to the proper frame rate.

The easiest place to start is to open one of your source clips, outside of Premiere, in QuickTime and then open the inspector window. Look at the frame rate there. Is it 29.97, or 23.976?

I'm using a canon 6D. I didn't adjust the "pulldown" (define that please?) but I know I shot at 23.976, confirmed by viewing the details in quicktime. When I created the project, I just dropped the clip onto the timeline and chose "match clip settings" for the timeline settings, so I would imagine the timeline would also be at 23.976? I was able to tell Premiere CS6 what I was doing as far as framerate, size, progressive vs interlaced, etc. but on CC that dialog box doesn't appear when I create a new project. It seems massively simplified into HD and DV. Am I doing something wrong?

How can I adjust the pulldown?
 
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Here's a screenshot of what I see when I hit New>Project on Premiere pro CC

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In terms of rendering motion the shutter speed is just as important to the "film look" as the frame rate. The frame rate represents how many 'samples' you are taking of the motion in front of the camera; the shutter speed determines how much motion is captured within each sample. The frame rate x the sample duration determines the percentage of motion which is rendered on screen.

The standard shutter in film is 180° or 1/24th of a second - this results in you only capturing half of the total motion on film each second. With digital cameras it's possible to go to a 360° shutter, which essentially allows you to capture all of the motion each second. This will render motion in a manner much closer to the traditional "video look" - 60 fields, each captured for 1/60th of a second, totaling 100% of the motion. You'll have more motion blur at 24/360°, but the end result is that it will look more video-like despite the 24fps frame rate.

A good example of this can be seen in one of the first major all-digital features, Apacalypto - there are shots where they are running in the jungle, and they had to use a 360° shutter to get proper exposure in the low light conditions. The scene suddenly looks like it was shot on video, despite being shot at 24fps. I remember noticing this in one of the Bourne movies too (can't remember which one offhand) where they used the higher shutter speed during certain shots in a chase scene.
 
Also, to get back on topic:

Here's some footage I took with my 6D at 24fps. Does this motion blur look normal to you or does it seem excessive?

24p Test

It looks a bit stuttery, but that might be just be vimeo weirdness too. Yes, you may have to adjust your shutter angle depending on the speed/direction the camera is going to move. Or for desired effect. For example, the beach storming scene in Saving Private Ryan was shot with a narrow shutter angle (faster shutter speed), and it has a much more staccato, much less fluid look. That was an artistic choice.
 
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