Movie Theater economics

trueindie

trueindie

This question is for those of you pros who work or have worked in Movie theaters?

Any idea what the total number of tickets sold (=number of bodies) are for a film for a 4 month run per screen, for hit films vs, flops?

Lets say
Man of Steel
and
The Identical

If my question is confusing, it's because I'm not well versed in cinema economics to be precise. I'm trying to form an understanding of how many people show up for art films in a mom and pop local theater over the run time of a film. That's really what I'm trying to find out. So without answering my question, if anybody has any idea, please let me know.

Thanks,
Aveek
 
“The Identical” opened on 1,956 screens. The average was $811
per screen. The second weeked it was on 1,274 screens with an
average of $306 per screen.

“Man of Steel” opened on 4,207 screens. The average was $27,720
per screen. By week 6 it was down to 1,050 screens with an average
of $1,733 per screen. It droped to 501 screens on its 7th week with
an average of $1,495 per screen. The weekend of Sept 13 it was on
91 screens with an average of $671 per screen.

The average ticket price in the U.S. is $8.15. I'll let you do the math
for total number of tickets sold (=number of bodies).
 
So.... please don't laugh at me... as you read the next few lines, and tell me that I'm living somewhere in the clouds and that I'm totally stupid for having such a dumb idea, but, here's the reason for my asking this question:

I was trying to figure out if it would be possible to push a finished film to mom and pop theaters for a fixed price for an unlimited run, and what that price would be?

Does anybody have any idea at what fixed price a local theater might be willing to show a film for an unlimited run? And what challenges one might face when trying to push such a deal with an individual theater owner?
thanks
ps. please feel free to tell me why this type of thinking is pure idiocy
 
Not idiocy and nothing to laugh about. It's done often - 'though rarely
for an unlimited run. It's called "four walling". Meaning you rent the
theater and show your movie. There are many different prices and deals
available depending on dozens of situations. For example a 600 seat
theater in Los Angeles that books independent films from distributors
on a regular basis will charge more than a 200 seat house in a smaller
area. Your local theater may charge less then my local theater.

If the filmmaker is expecting the theater owner to share in the risk the
challenges are far greater than if the filmmaker is four-walling the theater.
The owner takes no risk by getting the full rental fee if you get 200 people
per night or 4. They take a big risk if the filmmaker is expecting the owner
to split the ticket fees.

The challenge the filmmaker has is advertising. Just because a movie is
playing doesn't mean people will pay to see it. Look at the numbers for
“The Identical”: $811 per screen opening weekend then $306 per screen.
on the second weekend. And that's with "names" and a lot of advertising
AND averaged over more than 1,000 screens across the country.

One screen, in one city....

But it is done. Here in L.A. there are about a dozen small, independent
theaters that will rent their theater. You should look into your area and
get the prices.
 
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heheh. No I wasn't thinking of four-walling. I was thinking of a scenario where the theater owners would pay the filmmaker (I know, I know :D) to play the film for as long as they wish, not the other way around. So I wondering, if there was a price above $0 where a theater owner would say "oh, I pay $200 to the filmmaker and I can show this movie forever at my screen that usually has two people in it, and not have to split the louse 2 tickets sold with the studio? Great I'll buy his/her film."

Never mind. This scenario seems so remote. I'm not sure I can discuss further without people thinking I'm mad.

ps. Thanks Rik for detailing the four-walling scenario in the LA area. Appreciated.
 
The problem is there's little incentive for them to do that. In many cases they'll have deals for the major films they screen which detail the number of screenings and screens they'll run it on, so they can't necessarily just bump another film at any given time.

And marketing is still an issue - without some marketing muscle behind your film they'll still have two people in the theater (or less), only now they're paying for the film and losing money (instead of just splitting the ticket revenues). It doesn't matter if they're getting the film in perpetuity if there's nobody that wants to see it on an ongoing basis.

So I don't see any way it makes sense for the theater owner to pay you, unless you've got a huge following of some sort. Even then, I'd expect they'd want you to book the theater and fill it yourself for a few days or a week before they'd be willing to consider a revenue split with you.
 
If a film could consistently bring people in showing after showing for months and years, then they would be doing that right now.

Have you ever seen a film continue to play at a theater for years? (I'm not talking annually)
There is so much new content to consume, people see your movie and then they're on to the next one.
 
very intersting question.

For one, I'd never heard of The Identiacal....and I'm a fan of both Ray Liotta and Asley Judd. I think this raises a secondary question about promotion which for most "hollywood films" is larger than the budgets of your average movie.

In New York, you have theaters that won't/don't show blockbusters. In Austin, and other cities you have the same thing. They show "indies" or forigen films.

I have read about renting out theaters. I believe Stephen Spielberg did it when he was young for a film he made before he was hired on as a contract director. This was either late 60's or early 70s. I believe he was still a student, so it was most likely his father/mother who rented it out. I woudl think that in small towns outside of major cities, as long as the cinema is non-franchise, you have a good shot at doing something like this. Especially for a one night screening.

On the one hand it is disheartening to see a select few monster budget and overall Milquetoast films filling theaters, but then consider that people now have access to things like Netflix, Amazon, and of course DVD's.....

In the 90s, you had to travel to one of 2 or 3 theaters in NYC to see Kieslowski. It was a hard ticket to get...... Now, that same film would be avilable to millions on Netflix, Amazon and other services.

If the viewer is adept at knowing whats out there, then they actually have better chance of seeing it now.


For example....here are 3 of the best films I've seen in the last year. I don't think they had wide exposure in theaters. But on Amazon, Netflix, DVD's, etc...they have an audience.

----Upstream Color (never saw a commercial for this. Played in NYC and a few other places)
----Bullhead (great forigen film. never saw a commercial, it had a small run in the US.)
---Bellflower (older film/2011, but one I heard about and found on Netflix. It had a small run as well. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1242599/business?ref_=tt_ql_dt_4)



---
I'll add films like Eraserhead to the Rockey Horror List. I saw it as recently as last year or so as being shown. Of course, that's a type of movie (cult) and not your regular movie.


--------

As for you're particular questions about theaters....the type of theater and area is important.

I would avoid big chains. I can't imagine a 10 screen multiplex would do this. However. the independent cinemas, which still exist, are more likely to do this. I think they would want a real movie, but these places will often do retrospectives put on by local cities/municipalities. these are essentially hiring out. The place that plays X Men and Transformers and then does a double billing of something like The Third Man and M for one night, is the type of place to approach.
 
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sfoster said:
Isn't that an annual thing?
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Here is what I found online for it. I haven't heard about it for at least 10 years.

http://www.rockyhorror.com/participation/showtimes.php

It looks like there are still monthly showings.

I will say, that Rocky Horror, is more of a cabaret or theater performance at this point. People dressing as the characters, walking on stage, etc..... So in that regard it has moved beyond the realm of cinema.

I recall people I knew going to see it who had no interest in movies/cinema and were going more for the weird theater experience.
 
HowTheyDoThat said:
Here is what I found online for it. I haven't heard about it for at least 10 years.

http://www.rockyhorror.com/participation/showtimes.php

It looks like there are still monthly showings.

I will say, that Rocky Horror, is more of a cabaret or theater performance at this point. People dressing as the characters, walking on stage, etc..... So in that regard it has moved beyond the realm of cinema.

I recall people I knew going to see it who had no interest in movies/cinema and were going more for the weird theater experience.
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I liked rocky horror. I dressed up as dr frank once at a goth club
frank-n-furter.jpg
 
I was thinking of a scenario where the theater owners would pay the filmmaker (I know, I know ) to play the film for as long as they wish, not the other way around.
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You could always try this idea. There is nothing stopping you from trying. Cinemas usually have a stronger position where they get to say no more often than not. Usually when people are in this position, I'd expect putting up a barrier to entry to increase the chance of no being the answer.

Look at it like this. Take the cinema as the Hot Chick at the bar. They're knocking guys (filmmakers) back until they find who (movies) they want (that will put bums in seats). Lets say a guy comes up to her, instead of offering to buy her a drink, they demand she buys the drink. I'd expect that you'd want to make sure you've got the best package (film wise - pun intended) to try that methodology with cinemas.
 
Sweetie said:
You could always try this idea. There is nothing stopping you from trying. Cinemas usually have a stronger position where they get to say no more often than not. Usually when people are in this position, I'd expect putting up a barrier to entry to increase the chance of no being the answer.

Look at it like this. Take the cinema as the Hot Chick at the bar. They're knocking guys (filmmakers) back until they find who (movies) they want (that will put bums in seats). Lets say a guy comes up to her, instead of offering to buy her a drink, they demand she buys the drink. I'd expect that you'd want to make sure you've got the best package (film wise - pun intended) to try that methodology with cinemas.
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Your post made me chuckle. Exactly. Why not think like that?
But of course everything depends on the package and any buzz you've been able to create, through whatever method.
 
My feature film actually got picked up by a local theater. A multiplex, no less. They even put the poster in their lobby, right next to the big boys. It was not scheduled as a one-week run. Had it sold more tickets, they would've kept it there as long as they wanted to. It ended up being a one-week run.

I keep tabs on this theater (as a fan), insofar as which indie films get screened there, and how long they stay. A one-week run is dismall. It's happened before; my movie isn't alone. But damn. Not having money to spend on promotion is a pretty good way to guarantee that nobody shows up.

My point? The theater took a risk on me. It didn't pay off. They knew it was a risk. Only reason they took the risk was because it was locally produced (and won some awards, or whatever). The movies we're competing against have tremendous promotional budgets. Not much incentive for the vast majority of theaters to take that gamble.
 
Cracker Funk said:
My feature film actually got picked up by a local theater. A multiplex, no less. They even put the poster in their lobby, right next to the big boys. It was not scheduled as a one-week run. Had it sold more tickets, they would've kept it there as long as they wanted to. It ended up being a one-week run.

I keep tabs on this theater (as a fan), insofar as which indie films get screened there, and how long they stay. A one-week run is dismall. It's happened before; my movie isn't alone. But damn. Not having money to spend on promotion is a pretty good way to guarantee that nobody shows up.

My point? The theater took a risk on me. It didn't pay off. They knew it was a risk. Only reason they took the risk was because it was locally produced (and won some awards, or whatever). The movies we're competing against have tremendous promotional budgets. Not much incentive for the vast majority of theaters to take that gamble.
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How did you do it? Did you just go and talk to the manager? Was it some other technique?
 
trueindie said:
How did you do it? Did you just go and talk to the manager? Was it some other technique?
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Spoke with their corporate office. Local managers have nothing to do with booking movies. Their job is to sell popcorn, etc. Any corporate chain has a person in charge of booking movies, and that is the person to talk to.
 
Cracker Funk said:
Not having money to spend on promotion is a pretty good way to guarantee that nobody shows up.
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Were you able to get any 'free' promotion - things like write ups in the local weeklies, etc? I wonder if it would be possible on a local scale like that to generate enough interest to keep it in the theater longer without spending more than it's worth. I guess the key to that question is what level of ticket sales would the theater have to see to keep it going? Did they give you any information on that up front?
 
ItDonnedOnMe said:
Were you able to get any 'free' promotion - things like write ups in the local weeklies, etc? I wonder if it would be possible on a local scale like that to generate enough interest to keep it in the theater longer without spending more than it's worth. I guess the key to that question is what level of ticket sales would the theater have to see to keep it going? Did they give you any information on that up front?
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Unfortunately, none of the local press would even respond to any of my local queries. Ironically, we did get some free press for the initial cast/crew screening, but not for the run at the theater.

No, the theater didn't discuss how many tickets I'd have to sell, in order to stay. I think that would probably depend on other factors (how did other movies do), what movies are available to them, etc.
 
That's what I figured - it makes it hard though to develop a strategy for promotion if you don't even know what your targets are for success (beyond, of course, 'as many tickets as possible'). Too bad about the local press though, that's the primary avenue I could see to promote something local like this outside of your immediate circle.
 
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