When it comes to plotting, how do you make coincidences seem natural?

no need to be rude

harmonica44 said:

In Breaking Bad, season 3, episode 6, Hank calls Walt to get information on Pinkman cause he believes, that in doing so, Pinkman will lead him to Heissenburg. But as a huge coincidence, Walt is Hessenburg, so Hank is actually warning him without knowing it.

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The whole point of four and a half seasons (Walt knows Jesse, Hank doesn't know Walt is Heisenberg) is a huge coincidence? I'm trying to think of ways that example could be less coincidental.

Coincidences are much easier to swallow at the beginning of a film.

You could have the most unnatural coincidence in the world if it happens in the first couple of minutes. As a set up, people will simply assume that this is what your movie is about, what happens after a coincidence.

It doesn't work at all if you're ending on a coincidence, because now instead of making it a story set up you're using it as an 'out' for poor creativity and bad writing.

Okay thanks. What if it's like The Fugitive and the coincidence is in the second act? I find that the second act, is the place where most coincidences are likely going to occur, when you want to merge subplots with the main plot, or bring multiple characters to arrive in the same place.

One movie I can think of that used a coincidence in it's ending was No Way Out (1987). In that movie the villains framed a man, wanting to make everyone think he was a Russian spy. But at the end, he turns out he was actually the exact Russian spy, they were framing him to be.

harmonica44 said:

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In Breaking Bad, season 3, episode 6, Hank calls Walt to get information on Pinkman cause he believes, that in doing so, Pinkman will lead him to Heissenburg. But as a huge coincidence, Walt is Hessenburg, so Hank is actually warning him without knowing it.

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This is not coincidence.
This is Hank doing his work, following a lead, using the connections he has.
His job, his family and his intel lead to this action.
Calling Walt is not a random act.

In Pulp Fiction it's an 'oh shit' moment.
That can work very well.
In the fugitive: both men are trying to solve the same case and the both come to the same conclusion, based on what they know. Not a random coincidence, but it can still be called coincidental timing. It adds drama and tension

I guess the problem is when random coincidents make life easier for the characters.
When it complicates their 'mission' it adds drama and tension: sheer bad luck. (Or a blessing in disguise.)

1. A coincidence is something that is not required by the plot. If a character's actions could be carried out regardless, then the chance event can make that task harder or easier.
2. There should be a reasonable expectation the actions taken by each character are reasonable and would occur naturally. If two people work in the same city, it's likely their paths will cross.

The biggest flaw with bad writing is that the plot action couldn't advance without the coincidence. And in some cases, the coincidence is so out of bounds of the normal actions by the character that it becomes absurd. Humor thrives on absurd coincidences. Unfortunately, poorly written coincidences read as comedy even when that's not the intention. Yet in the hands of a master, even humor's absurdities can be a powerful, dramatic tool.

"Inconceivable!" -- "I do no think tha' word, means wha' you think it means."

Okay thanks. I agree with what the ideology that a coincidence that complicates the matter adds drama and tension, and a coincidence that makes life easier is bad.

What if in a situation, you have two characters, and a coincidence gets them to the same place, at the same coincidental timing, and it's a convenient advantage for one character that the coincidence brought him to the other person, but for the other person, it's a sheer bad luck coincidence?

Does it work if the coincidence goes both ways, a good way for one character, a bad way for another?

That depends on context and circumstances.
You can't make a rule out of this.

harmonica44 said:

Okay thanks. I agree with what the ideology that a coincidence that complicates the matter adds drama and tension, and a coincidence that makes life easier is bad.

What if in a situation, you have two characters, and a coincidence gets them to the same place, at the same coincidental timing, and it's a convenient advantage for one character that the coincidence brought him to the other person, but for the other person, it's a sheer bad luck coincidence?

Does it work if the coincidence goes both ways, a good way for one character, a bad way for another?

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In that situation a lot depends on the timescales and location involved.

In most of the examples you use, the writers have gone to great extents
to set up the "coincidence." So much so, that it doesn'treally qualify as pure
coincidence. It is more like coincidental timing, (as others have pointed out.)

As the audience, we are kind of waiting to see it happen.

The Pulp Fiction example is certainly a surprise, but really it makes a lot of sense
that Ving Rhames would be in the area, based on where Bruce Willis is and what
he has just found out only a few blocks away.

Pure coincidence should be sparingly used. And I think John August and
Craig Mazin on their scriptnotes podcast stated that you can kind of get away
with one pure coincidence in your story and that's it. And that pure coincidence shouldn't
be something that majorly affects the third act or something. Itis usually reserved for early on.

A lot of romantic comedies use coincidences, but usually it is used to set up
the lovers and get them together, especially if they are two very different people.

For instance, in the Goldie Hawn Chevy Chase movie Foul Play, the
opening scene takes place at a party. Goldie Hawn and Chevy Chase
are both there alone. He hits on her, but she blows him off. A little bit
later in the film, Goldie Hawn thinks she is in danger, she calls the police and the
detective assigned to her case turns out to be Chevy Chase, the jerk she
blew off at the party in the first scene! They go on to have adventures
and fall in love.

In action movies, coincidence can be used early on to put the hero in the position
where he has to rise to the occasion. For instance, in the original Die Hard it is pure
coincidence that Bruce Willis is visiting his wife at the office building on the
night it is about to be taken over by terrorists.

For instance, in the Goldie Hawn Chevy Chase movie Foul Play, the
opening scene takes place at a party.

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I love that movie
Definitely time to watch it again.

Okay thanks. What about a movie like No Way Out (1987)?

In that movie the secretary of defense finds out that his mistress is seeing another man so he gets jealous and murders her. He then decides to make it seem like the Russian spy they have been looking for, was the other man she was seeing, making it look like he murdered her.

In order to keep the investigation looking legit me appoints a man for the job to avoid suspicion that he is controlling it all himself. The man he appoints though, just so coincidentally happens to the other man she was seeing. In the climax it is also revealed that he is also coincidentally the Russian spy they were looking for as well.

So the movie's climax comes together on a double coincidence, but that was part of the entertainment of it. I guess that's the trick is to make the coincidence believable, although it's really big, especially if it's a double one.

H44, you remind me of my brother. He wanted to play the trumpet. So he finally got a trumpet. He took classes but was frustrated he couldn't sound like the musicians he admired. He'd comment on all the stylings in jazz and classical and wonder how they got this effect or that. He can appreciate what he hears and he plays with a modicum of skill. Not enough to be hired by a band. After high school, he didn't keep up with the performance side.

You've seen lots of movies. You know what you like. You're just not very good at it because you don't practice it. You keep wanting to create a masterpiece imitating the masters when your skill level is still 'marching band' level. Yes, a teacher can show you the mechanics of writing a fugue or how to harmonize notes or basic chord progressions. But if you don't continuously apply those skills until they become second nature, the best you'll be able to do is perform other people's music and not create your own.

We could collectively tell you about character and plot development but it will do nothing for you unless you apply it. So much of learning is trial and error. Kids suck when they first learn a musical instrument. If you persist, you get better. And if you truly apply yourself, you become adept enough to create. Some musicians enjoy just the technical mastery and don't want to create. There are fantastic directors who simply buy scripts because they enjoy the visual aspects of creation.

You need to buckle down and practice. Save up your energies for your "masterpiece" once you've mastered the necessary skills. At the moment, you like these movies but your skill level is "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". You think, "I can do that" but then can't.

Twinkle is a perfect analogy in that like any musical composition, there is the lead in, the variations and the closure. A good writer, like a good composer, thinks about how all the elements fit together. When Mozart wrote the variations on music that we know as "Twinkle Twinkle" it goes well beyond what most learn in the beginning. Here is how a master thinks about a 'simple plot element' and develops it. Notice the introduction of the 'lead characters'. Notice how the dynamics change. How they play off each other. The B-storyline and the merger and final resolution. You can appreciate it on several levels--the crafting, the execution and the inventiveness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKCsujeeu8o
Or if you truly admire a master (say Spielberg, Hitchcock, etc.) and immerse yourself in their style, you can pull off something with their feel like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBtQCrimP1M.
If you don't know how it was done, then it's very likely you can't pull it off. You just do the best you can and understand it will be a poor imitation at first. If you continue, you'll improve, start incorporating things from others' styles and also develop your own. It takes both practice and a natural sense to be an artist. With practice and training, you can become technically proficient. However, until it becomes internalized so you can draw upon it subconsciously to create your own new ideas, no amount of advice will help. To understand coincidence and story telling is to understand the audience's emotional needs and expectations. With your current level of experience, you can appreciate the complexity of "No Way Out". You can acquire the skills with practice though. Do your best.

I'm sure it's frustrating to see things you like and want to do. Your ability level needs to match it to accomplish the task. And the only way to acquire it is to attempt and fail many times before you succeed. Some things can't be explained readily. Very few kids go straight from crawling to climbing trees. There are exceptions, but that's not the norm. So many here recommend shorts because they help you master the needed skills. Writing is no different. If you expect to write a feature out the gate, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. I've never met a successful writer who doesn't have at least fifteen projects behind them whether books, blogs, shorts, plays, etc. Some have never succeeded. No amount of explanation can help you acquire the aesthetics to understand how to make an event feel like a natural coincidence. If you don't get it, you don't get it at this point. You need to put in the effort.

"Twinkle, Twinkle" shows how a common idea (a French folk theme) can be developed in various ways depending on the skill level of the artist. If you don't get the subtle interplay between the melody and countermelody or the modulation into the minor key and back, you don't get it. You appreciate that it's there when you hear it but that's where it stops. When you actually study lots of pieces and sit at the instrument and try variations, it begins to become natural, instinctive. Study only takes you so far, then you need to put in the perspiration.

Get lots of shorts under your belt which you can make cheaply. Try the different techniques. Slowly it will all fit together for you.

Okay thanks. I said before that I had trouble finding cast and crew to make shorts, and I thought it was because likely people may have not just been interested in doing a one page script.

However, I helped two people with their films this year and last year. I cannot post them on there, because I do not have the producer's permission, but I showed them to my friends and they all said that they did not like them because the scripts had problems such as plot holes, or weak writing.

But those people were still able to get some pretty good actors and really good crew for their movies. How can I do it like they do, and get people interested in shooting a sub-par script?

harmonica44 said:

Okay thanks. I said before that I had trouble finding cast and crew to make shorts, and I thought it was because likely people may have not just been interested in doing a one page script.
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Or your communication skills.
Or the lack of portfolio or vision or whatever.

Some people say no people are interested in 1 page 'scripts' and still, somehow, I've crewed and casted several 1 or 2 page scripts (up to 16 people* voor 2 minutes of video).
However, I never communicate it is a 1 page script, I tell them what it will be about, what happens, what atmosphere and style it will be and how long the video probably will be. I always do my best to make it worth everybody's effort: the people acting in it get the video to put in their portfolio. The crew is always excited to share the video. I keep the time between shooting and final video as short as possible: within 1 or months it is finished and online. (Yes, these short things are like little fun exercises I don't want to send to filmfestivals and wait of a year to be able to show it online.)

You worked on other people's projects: did you connect to any of the cast and crew?
Those are people who like to make movies.

* At least half of the people who join my projects are people I worked with before. Another reason to start making stuff!
(Actually, my former roommate is also a filmmaker, so he is almost always part of the crew, just like I'm on his crew as well.)

You need to work on your skills.
FantasySciFi is right.
I'm a lousy guitar player/musician, I love music and I know my music isn't as great as the my favourite artists.
But at least I did record some tracks without thinking it has to been a number 1 hit:
http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=2248733

It was a great exercise and I already knew filmmaking would my path.