I'll give my thoughts on everything said in this long post. No offense, I would just like to develop myself and have a healthy discussion.
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Alcove Audio
At that budget level all you can afford would be consumer a "toy" that runs at high impedance (Hi-Z). Hi-Z gear is highly susceptible to all kinds of interference (RF, EM, cell phones, etc.). Low impedance (Lo-Z) gear is what is used by professionals.
- As long as it's not constant (which it clearly isn't or they're all unusable for even simple home video) I'm okay with having a tiny percentage of my takes fail. It's part of the struggle and not worth 200% more in cost.
Most of us audio professional consider low budget Zoom gear (which is Hi-Z) to be disposable junk; when it breaks you throw it away. At the micro-budget level I would go for something like the Tascam DR-40.
- I'm not sure I'm rich or an avid credit card user. I wouldn't throw away anything over $20, unless the fixing costs are higher than buying a new one.
- The Tascam DR-40 is a nice recommendation. I'll look into it.
Most of the time a boomed mic is used, which one (long shotgun, short shotgun, hypercardioid) is determined by the specific situation. Lavs present unique problems all their own. You need one lav for each actor and a separate channel on your audio recorder for each lav. Each lav will need a transmitter and a receiver. The lav will have to be placed properly to capture the voice correctly and not rub, brush, etc. creating unremovable noise.
As far as budget lavs, Rode and Audio Technica make passable budget lavs. Be sure that you get the proper connectors for your mixer/recorder or transmitter.
As always, I recommend that you retain someone to do the sound for you. Monitoring the audio and levels is an extremely important job when on the set. If your production sound is unusable you will have to ADR, which is extremely problematic at the low/no/mini/micro budget level.
You should read this to get some idea of what you are really getting into.
https://www.ricviers.com/location-sound-bible
- I do agree that I need a boom mic. Lav mics will always have a problem with clothing, no matter the budget. You can just learn to place it properly or use some accessoires. I believe Rode made some.
If you're creative you can use 1 lav mic to do all the dialogue. So you will also only need 1 recorder.
- Yes, ADR is hard. I agree. But even that isn't fully down to the gear. With experience and creativity you can create acceptable ADR on a tiny budget (youtu.be/rk6Cpe3KG8M?t=27m30s)
- I will read that book.
Most of the beginners here on IndieTalk have aspirations of making quality low/no/mini/micro budget projects and beyond. So when buying gear you're making an investment in your career/future. You may as well get something of decent quality that will last a while. That's my aversion to consumer products; they have no upgradeability to the future and are usually unfixable when broken.
- As long as the only variable is budget, then the lower the budget the worse the movie will be.
- I don't want to make a big investment. I'm only working on my first story.
- How does one upgrade gear? Never knew audio gear by
big brands like Rode were like PC's. Do you mean that one can add accessoires to it?
- I don't plan to destroy my gear. And within my $200 budget, plastic remains plastic.
Bad audio is poorly recorded audio. Production sound is truly an art, just like cinematography. The entire concept is to capture the best dialog possible under the given circumstances. The best sound for human voice on a film set is to have the mic about 12" in front of and 12" above the actor(s) pointed at the notch at the base of the throat to pick up chest resonance in addition to what comes out of the mouth. The boom-op has one of the toughest jobs on the set. That's why I recommend retaining someone to do sound for you.
If you get consumer stuff, at least get DECENT consumer stuff. Rode and Audio Technica make good consumer products, both mics and lavs. For a recorder you'll probably do okay with a Zoom H1 as I understand that Tascam Products are hard to get in Europe.
- So you're saying: Learn how to use your gear. That would mean that expensive gear isn't that important.
- I will try to get someone to do my sound for me once I've gotten grasp of it myself. I need to know the limitations that my crew are working with or I won't be able to guide them to create the story needed.
- You're saying: Get something that's been proven to work, and get the Zoom H1 - it's actually not that bad if you use it well. Right?
No. But your ambition is to be a filmmaker, correct? Get into good habits early. Crappy production sound kills more otherwise technically solid projects than any other reason. But the quality of the mic is not a huge issue IF PROPERLY USED.
- My ambition is not to serve experts and blow my cash. As long as the general audience doesn't get disturbed, I won't spend 200% more to get a few more people to like my stuff a tiny bit better. It's simply not a good business move. Added to that is that I'm not 100% sure I'll be making movies for the rest of my life.
- And again, you're saying: Just make sure you use it properly. Right? And so every device will be good in some type of situation. Not?
Your project will only look as good as it sounds, because
"Sound is half of the experience"
If your film looks terrible but has great sound, people might just think it's your aesthetic.
If your film looks great and has bad sound, people will think you're an amateur.
Sound is the first indicator to the industry that you know what you're doing.
- I agree completely.
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Buscando
Alcove Audio knows what he's talking about. I’m reading that book.
It can be hard to understand how much impact audio has on a film because you don’t usually notice good audio, you only notice if it’s bad. You really have to consciously listen to study how clear it is & how all its elements work together.
- Sure, audio has a lot of impact. But if you don't notice it while casually watching on a normal volume, then to me, the audio is good enough. Audio is part of the experience of the movie. If the experience is good, then the audio is good.
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directorik
I'm not alone when I say that I didn't understand this until well into
my "starters" career. I even tried this job a few times thinking there
wasn't much too it other than aiming in the right direction.
Right. There is this whole technical aspect. And it goes further than just gear. You need to understand what type of mic works in what type of situation.
Especially for people just starting and for all ultra-low budget filmmakers
the boom op (and mixer) will (not can, WILL) make a noticeable difference.
AND make the sound mix much easier even if you are doing the basic
minimum as a beginner.
They will make a difference. It's just that I have to know the basics, so I know what my crew can do for me. Also, having 0 budget and 0 reputation, it's not so easy finding someone to do the sound. And having someone with 0 passion and 0 experience with audio manage all my sound, won't be a good idea either. They can hold the pole at max.
And the mic is important. From my experience and NOT from the perspective
of the audio person (like Alcove) save your money and wait until you can
afford a good mic. I'm still using a $300 Sennheiser I bought in the 1980's.
Not currently using any camera I bought in the 80's...
I have the money, but it's not worth the risk. When audio is mostly about technique and style anyway, why would I splash the cash on 1 part of my setup? Adding to that, I'm just starting out and don't know my future. It would be like investing in stocks, when you're predicted to die in 4 weeks.
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Sweetie
It's probably outside your budget but for a recorder, I find it hard to suggest anything lower than the Sound Devices MixPre-3.
- I reckon that would be because you know all the ins and outs of audio. You may have a studio headset. You would maybe never like the audio from a Zoom H1. The average movie watcher wouldn't mind as long as you use the gear well.
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Alcove Audio
A microphone of even reasonable quality can last for many, many years. I was a working musician for almost 25 years. I have a Shure SM-58 that is over 40 years old (high school!) and still sounds fine. Most of my mic collection is well over 10 years old. Not that I am currently considering selling any of my mics, but it's comfort to know that they have a solid resale value. My keyboard stand held a variety of keyboards over the years, my rack cases held changing assortment of gear over the years, and my amplification system changed very little over the last 10 years of my performing career. The point is that some gear, if carefully selected and maintained, can last you for many years of use.
As far as your request for an equipment list it is very difficult to make suggestions without a definitive budget, and not knowing what gear is available in the Netherlands makes it even harder. I have already made some suggestions as to brands:
- I agree that if you get great stuff it will last. I just want the stuff that's most efficient for what I'm getting. Same thing with my pc. I bought the best parts, until the increase in price didn't justify the increase in performance. So when audio gear gets me a 5% bigger audience, I'm not willing to spend +200%. I basically just need audio gear that can do more than close-up speaking, which is the only thing that the in-build camera mic can handle and sound half-decent after editing. (Sure, not cinema level, but average at-home watcher level)
- Budget = $200 to 250 for all audio gear combined, excluding accessoires is preferred. It can be more, but absolute max is $150 per piece of gear and no more than $300 in total for all. In any way (200 or 300), it needs to set me up for dialogue, foley and sound effects in a way in which the average at-home movie-watcher will not be distracted/like the audio.
- In the Netherlands we can get pretty much everything, but all for a bit more because of shipping costs. And retail business also sell it for more, since they have to ship it. Some things aren't sold by retailers in the Netherlands, so it becomes $50+ more for shipping costs.
- I will look into the brands Rode and Audiotechnica.
You could also take some time to actually read "The Location Sound Bible" to provide you with the baseline information that you need.
Just for fun, here's Uncle Bobs "Buying Guide".
- I will read that book.
- And thanks for this. It's just outside of how much I want to spend. This is good stuff for when I've created a few movies and know that I want to keep on making them.
You'll also need cables, cases, battery packs and other miscellaneous items - about $200 to $500.
As always, I suggest that you retain someone to do sound for you.
- I'll spend that much on cables etc. but only over time and once I'm sure I want to keep on making films. At this point, I'm only starting out.
- I'll try to get someone after I've gotten some base experience. But I fear it will be hard being in the situation I am in, like I said before.
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Like I said at the start: Just want to have a healthy discussion and if we end up disagreeing: That's alright.