Advice on recorder to use with Sound Devices 302

IndiePaul said:

capturing good audio is key to your production and is difficult.

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Remember Forrest Gump? "Shrimpin' is HARD." The "problem" is that audio has to work around the shot. And that's the art of the talented boom-op.

IndiePaul said:

We have had countless scenes ruined due to audio capture issues,

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What were the problems? Was it a technical problem (hums/buzzes) or a knowledge/skill issue (low levels, too much room/off-axis)?

IndiePaul said:

I wear both the DOP and 'audio guy' hats on our shoots.

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Well, there's your problem. How can you shoot a scene and boom at the same time?

IndiePaul said:

I recently upgraded my audio kit with a Sound Devices 302 (I already owned an MM1). I am using that with a Tascam DR40... ...(S)hould I also upgrade the Tascam to a better recorded?

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Let's figure out what the audio issues are before you decide to throw money at it. Can you post a sample or two?

Alcove Audio said:

Remember Forrest Gump? "Shrimpin' is HARD." The "problem" is that audio has to work around the shot. And that's the art of the talented boom-op.

What were the problems? Was it a technical problem (hums/buzzes) or a knowledge/skill issue (low levels, too much room/off-axis)?

Well, there's your problem. How can you shoot a scene and boom at the same time?

Let's figure out what the audio issues are before you decide to throw money at it. Can you post a sample or two?

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The biggest issue is the fact I am behind the camera and working on audio at the same time, so cannot boom. I wear one of those Petrol audio bags with my 302, Tascam, wireless receiver etc inside. I monitor the audio as I film. If the scene is fixed, I boom the mic (Audio-Technica AT4053B - we shoot mostly indoors) with a boom stand. If the scene is moving, I have little choice but to use lavs - we have 2x Sennheiser G3s.

Our last shoot we had heartbeat problems with the wireless lav. When I planted it on the desk - the talent was sitting by the desk, I managed to avoid the issue.

Other shoots, we had handling noise issue with lavs. Again an experience thing. I simply stopped the shoot, worked on the lav (more moleskin, different placement etc) then re-started. We then got better audio capture.

Previously when fixed booming I had low levels but that was poor boom placement - now resolved.

Cell phones have interfered with some audio (wireless of course) - again lack of experience. I simply had the phones switched off.

Noise from outside the location has been a huge pain. We switch off all fridges, close windows etc but outside - people mowing, noisy cars, noisy neighbors, showers running have killed countless scenes. Nothing gear can do about that.

Overall I think we are now doing a "decent" job. A pro would help hugely but as always budget is an issue.

I was simply wondering if upgrading the recorder would see a nice jump in sound quality. I think the answer is likely No. When we record voice over, the AT4053B + SD 302 + Tascam DR40 sound pretty good. I guess that is my answer there.

Your problem is a lack of skilled audio help. A fixed boom is only a step and a half up from camera mic audio. Buying a new audio recorder will not improve your sound. A skilled boom-op will most definitely improve your sound.

The only other suggestion I could make is get a multi-track recorder (4 or more channels) and lav everything all the time as well as booming. Possibilities:

Tascam DR-60D
Tascam DR-680
Edirol / Roland R-44

If you want to spend a lot of money there are, of course, lots more to choose from.

As always, great advice. Noted. Thanks Alcove Audio.

IndiePaul said:

We have had countless scenes ruined due to audio capture issues, few due to visual issues. ... Noise from outside the location has been a huge pain. We switch off all fridges, close windows etc but outside - people mowing, noisy cars, noisy neighbors, showers running have killed countless scenes. Nothing gear can do about that.

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I obviously cannot be sure how much you know about the audio post process? There are a number of routinely employed tricks, techniques and tools available these days to the audio post pro/Re-recording Mixer to salvage otherwise unusable production sound. In other words, it may be that what you consider "ruined" may in fact be within the realm of usable. You might be surprised at the quality of some of the professional production sound I get sent, the issues you've mentioned are not at all uncommon! However, there are two main reasons Alcove and I bang on about getting good production sound: 1. It's a good habit to get into, which will serve the filmmaker well at any level, and 2. Many of the most effective audio salvage/restoration tools are relatively expensive and require a considerable amount of knowledge, experience and talent to use effectively. Few if any DIY and lo/no budget filmmakers have access to this level of audio restoration (either personally or by hiring cheap audio post pros/semi-pros), so, Alcove's and my advice is designed to try to avoid the need for it.

It maybe, of course, that your scenes cannot be salvaged (even by a well equipped/experienced audio post pro) and are in fact "ruined". Why don't you take Alcove's advice and post a sample for us to evaluate and let you know for sure that your scenes are ruined?

IndiePaul said:

My question for the Audio gurus - Alcove, APE etc is should I also upgrade the Tascam to a better recorder? ... I'm also presuming that analogue-to-digital converter is a budget model given the price point of the DR40. Should I therefore consider purchasing a better recorder with a better analogue-to-digital converter?

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According to digital sampling theory, the conversion process from analogue to digital (and vice-versa), can be accomplished perfectly. Up to about a decade ago, the practical implementation of this theoretical perfection was only really available in high-end (expensive) converters but today ADC (Analogue to Digital Converter) chips, which perform "perfectly" well beyond the sensitivity of human hearing, are cheap. For this reason, even today's decent smartphones have, as near as makes no difference, "perfect" converters. In other words, the difference in the quality of the actual ADC process between a budget recorder like the DR40 and a top of the range pro recorder would be un-noticeable under normal circumstances and therefore, orders of magnitude less important than other recording variables (such as mic quality and positioning).

The answer to your question is therefore "no", or more accurately; "no" you shouldn't purchase a better recorder based on the hope that it's ADCs will improve your sound quality. However, I totally agree with Alcove that getting a 4 channel recorder should certainly be given serious consideration at some point. It will allow you to record boom and lavs on separate channels and provide more options in audio post. For this reason, all professional/commercial production sound mixers use at least 4 channel recorders.

IndiePaul said:

Note, I know hiring an audio pro is the best bet but our budget simply does not allow for that at present.

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As Alcove has effectively said, given your modus operandi, anything you invest in equipment wise is going to have a negligible effect on sound quality relative to getting a decent, dedicated boom op. Buying more expensive band-aids is IMO going to be a waste of money if the patient is suffering from catastrophic GSWs!

G

Alcove Audio said:

Remember Forrest Gump? "Shrimpin' is HARD." The "problem" is that audio has to work around the shot. And that's the art of the talented boom-op.

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off-topic a bit: I'm not talented, afaik, yet. But I keep getting called to boom. Subbed for a feature, and have 2 shorts lined up.

I'm pretty sure the "show up when you agree to show up" is 75% of the equation. When people know they can count on you, it's amazing how many paid calls you start to get.

Hanging out on a TV set as an extra, I spoke with the boom op a bit who had been doing it 8 years or so. I watched him hold a 14' boom without the capsule moving for a good 3 min straight. It literally didn't move 2 inches from where he put it. Call me impressed... the man was a machine.

Well, there's your problem. How can you shoot a scene and boom at the same time?

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You can't. I learned this the hard way.

Great advice AudioPostExpert, thanks.

AudioPostExpert said:

It maybe, of course, that your scenes cannot be salvaged (even by a well equipped/experienced audio post pro) and are in fact "ruined". Why don't you take Alcove's advice and post a sample for us to evaluate and let you know for sure that your scenes are ruined?

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I monitor the audio so when a mower/shower starts, neighbor calls out etc I merely stop the take and wait for quiet to return. It can be a 30 second wait or hours... So for all my "ruined" audio I actually still get at least a few good takes as well.

Again thanks for the audio. Priceless.