Using an artists music..... Paying for a track

APE - Agreed. A lesson learnt.

I guess my main grievance is that like you say, you see copyrighted music used so often without permission, im sure i could go on youtube now and find a load... and sometimes its used on material that could degrade the artists integrity but it doesn't get picked up... Whereas I and other essentially try and do the right thing by looking to pay for the track but get hit with a massive sum of money.

I completely understand from the artists point of view, they need to make money... ironically I worked in music for 7 years! Not the law side but more the promotion and tour organising.

But solely from my point of view as an independent film maker producing corporate video for small to medium sized businesses to be asked to pay £2000 for a track and that being cheap is completely out of the question.
I would say a lot of the time being able to use an artists track can really enhance my work, the product its promoting and the companies image rather than a generic electronic loop track found on such sites as istock.com etc
Also on the flip side it potentially showcases the artists track to a new audience especially if they are not well known in the products traget audience.

All I am saying is it would be great if theres a happy medium. What that happy medium is I dont know? Do You? Is there even one?

I shouldnt have used the word "pirate" but instead illegally using a track.

Gosh this debate would be so much easier if we were all chatting in person, its so hard to convey things over a computer!

Well I think the happy medium is to use unknown artist's work that will only cost you $10 to a few hundred $ tops, depending on who they are and what you want to use it for. Let the big labels run themselves into the ground because of their crazy pricing and encourage indie music makers!

I would love to use unsigned bands music but like others have said in this thread that the recording quality is almost always not as good.

Maybe a site needs to be set up where bands can upload tracks that they are allowing to be used for film and video for a modest fee.... i know there is istock.com and royalty free places but in my travels most tracks are instrumentals or one guy doing everything... not a true band song recorded in a proper studio

What you, and much of the public, have to realise is that EMI own some of the very best recording facilities in the world and produce products which are generally of the highest quality. Producing products of the highest quality is never cheap. A Ferrari is unfortunately more expensive than a Lada, you get what you pay for. For some strange reason people don't seem to apply this same logic to music, let me give you some examples:

Absolution_Films said:

I would say a lot of the time being able to use an artists track can really enhance my work, the product its promoting and the companies image rather than a generic electronic loop track found on such sites as istock.com etc

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Of course incorporating someone else's world class quality product into your own work is going to enhance your work, it would be pretty strange if it didn't! Promoting my skills and my image would be far easier if I arrived at meetings driving a Ferrari rather than a generic Lada but I can't afford a Ferrari, what should I do, steal one?

Absolution_Films said:

I guess my main grievance is that like you say, you see copyrighted music used so often without permission, im sure i could go on youtube now and find a load... and sometimes its used on material that could degrade the artists integrity but it doesn't get picked up... Whereas I and other essentially try and do the right thing by looking to pay for the track but get hit with a massive sum of money.

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I know what you mean. Thousands of cars are stolen everyday and lots of people get away with it but when I tried to do the right thing and went into the Ferrari showroom they tried to hit me up for £150k!!

Absolution_Films said:

But solely from my point of view as an independent film maker producing corporate video for small to medium sized businesses to be asked to pay £2000 for a track and that being cheap is completely out of the question.

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The list price for a Ferrari 428 is £180k but they offered it to me for £150k. I've only got a small to medium sized business and being asked to pay £150k for a car and that being cheap is completely out of the question. I need a car but I can't afford a Ferrari, what can I do?

Absolution_Films said:

All I am saying is it would be great if theres a happy medium.

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Yes, I agree. Instead of an old Lada costing £500 and a new Ferrari costing £150k, there should be a happy medium. I should be able to buy a new Ferrari for £30k!

If you've only got £30k to spend on a car you go and buy an Audi or a BMW, you can't logically say: I don't have enough money for a Ferrari, I've got no choice but to steal one! You see, the same logic just doesn't work with a product like a car when compared to the logic many people seem to apply to a music product, why not? If you don't have enough money to afford the finest quality music products then you'll have to compromise and buy a music product which is in your price range.

G

Well... I don't think there's any need to be cynical about it. No offense intended to previous posters- I'm talking about a mindset, not a specific example.

I think we need to see this as an opportunity rather than an issue. Like I said, this gives less known people a chance to get heard. Yes, more often than not the production won't be to the same level but let's face it, who's going to see your video, where will it be posted? I bet it's going to be online...

You can trust your ears to an extent, or ask someone in the know to have a listen, but you most certainly can find suitable music made by an indie artist out there (try Audio Jungle for example) that isn't as low a standard as you may expect. In fact there are many indie artists who do great work.

Anyway, thanks for an interesting discussion and good luck!

Absolution_Films said:

I would love to use unsigned bands music but like others have said in this thread that the recording quality is almost always not as good.

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I've found quite a few indie bands that have great music and the tracks sound terrific. The big problem is that you really have to wade through the cesspool of mediocrity of bad music, bad quality, or both to find them, but they are out there. Granted, they don't sound like a $300/hr mastering engineer worked on them, but indie bands face the same issues that indie filmmakers do - small budgets.

I was very disappointed with MySpace for eliminating the old search function in their music section. You used to be able to search by "sounds like," "influenced by," location, etc. and then sort by a variety of other parameters. I could narrow it down VERY quickly, but it's not even worth trying on MySpace any more.

Still, there are sites like UnSigned and ReverbNation that offer passable search functions and a huge number of potential tracks. Granted, it's still a lot harder when you want something very specific rather than something that perks your ears up.

As with everything else on the low budget world you have to replace nonexistent budgets with lots of time and effort. If you want major label quality you're going to have to pay for it.

You could try searching on SoundCloud too, I'm sure you could find something on there. What was the track you were using before?

In the end, you will be responsible for any legal issues on the music as the creator of the edited video.

I have worked extensively in music licensing. Here are some viable options (these are US prices though)

Use royalty free sites such as Firstcom, Killertracks, megatraxx... you will pay about $150-$350 for internet usage. You can get a similar piece without the hefty price. You will have to renew every year.

Pay EMI publishing, but remember you will have to pay the same amount to the author. When you are licensing a master, you pay both publishing and author unless it's public domain. Author will be the same rate as publishing, so if they quoted you 2K, the author rights will be 2K

Find a music producer to create a sound alike with midi samples. A good producer will create a piece that is amazing quality. You will pay anything between $600 USD - $5,000 based on experience of producer. You will own the music outright.

Best of luck

Absolution_Films said:

I would love to use unsigned bands music but like others have said in this thread that the recording quality is almost always not as good.

Maybe a site needs to be set up where bands can upload tracks that they are allowing to be used for film and video for a modest fee.... i know there is istock.com and royalty free places but in my travels most tracks are instrumentals or one guy doing everything... not a true band song recorded in a proper studio

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there are plenty of those sites around as I have music in a bunch of them....I don't know if it's proper to post a bunch of those links here so I won't (I'm new here) - you can PM me and i'll give you a few names of the better companies if you want - "SOME" stock music sites have come along way as of late and now offer some real high quality tracks...you may have to wade through lesser quality stuff to find a gem though..

I have stuff here in a few styles to offer (real band performances as well as one man band stuff) and a lot of material not at this link - http://soundcloud.com/lightboxtherapy/sets/light-box-therapy-1 - free downloads to try songs as a temp track and if they work i'm reasonable about pricing -

Hey guys, please tell me
1) how do you find music for your films? what you type in search?
2) where do you buy royalty free music?

I already used a music from http://thetunepeddler.com and now I asked him for a custom song, for $70. He did a great job.

Hate to write this, but - as this often is a reality in the business : If you cannot get or cannot pay enough for the rights to use this very music, you should ask a professional composer to create a "sound alike". It's not very popular among composers, because mainly you ask people to copy something, they are not allowed to copy. However this is done on a daily basis. So you can get close to the feel, tempo, instrumentation of the song, without running into copyright problems. Been there, done that.

However, my advice is work with a composer on original music in the first place to keep the option for original exclusive music open.