Super 16mm Camera Purchase

Hi there-
I am starting production of a ultra low budget feature film, and have a budget of $1000 to $1500 to buy a Super 16mm camera. I have seen a few Russian models on ebay, at $400, but they do not seem great. I am not tempted to rent a camera either because of the high costs, and risks. I have good experience with both 8mm and 16mm.
Thanks,
Callum
 
Welcome!

The Krasnogorsk K-3 is a solid, well built 16mm camera than can be converted
to super16. It takes 100’ daylight spools - about two and a half minutes. Its
motor is loud so that makes it difficult when recording sound and that 100'
spool makes for short takes and lots of reloading.

But it's a great camera. I put mine in a car we drove off a 45' cliff. The lens
broke, but I still use the camera.
 
That's a hell of a testament for that little Russian wonder. I've always wanted to get a K3, but have never gotten around to it. As I recall Spike Lee used one for some of the footage for his "Get on the Bus"
 
Hi and thanks for your replies...I have had a think about the K3, and decided that I am not going to go for it as it requires to be wound up, is reasonably loud, and can only take a 100' spool.
Does anyone have any other cameras they can recommend?
Thanks,
Callum
 
Bolex - the great workhorse of 16mm. Many different models to choose from.
The "H-16" is the first 16mm camera I bought and I still use it. You can usually
find them for not much money.

Beaulieu - the "R16" is one of my favorites. This is great cameras with beautiful
a lens. This was the second camera I bought and it still runs perfectly. I see them on
sale often and they are very inexpensive. It's a little loud, but can be quieted with a barney.

Eclair - the NPR is the camera many film schools use. Rugged, solid and quiet.

Canon - the Scoopic was the standard in TV news cameras in the 1970's. Easy
to use. Another film school staple. Before video, every film student used the reliable
Scoopic before moving up to the Eclair.

With the Aaton and Arriflex we're getting pricey. These are high end,
pro cameras worth knowing about. These are usually rentals - even used they can
run above $10,000 - but it's worth knowing about them.
 
I hope I'm not too late to provide my advice. Not wanting to contradict directorik but the most common camera for news filming was the CP-16. This is a quiet 16mm camera that shot single system sound on magnetic striped film. So much of the on scene sound footage seen on television news was made with the CP-16. Silent footage could have been shot with any 16mm camera including the Bolex and Bell & Howell.

The CP-16R has a 400 foot capacity magazine, reflex viewing, crystal sync drive and many have been converted to Super 16. They have been priced anywhere from $1,000 to $5,000. I got mine for $1,200. Besides the Eclair it is a popular model for low budget feature films.
 
krasnogorsk video tap

Hey I bought one of these video tap adapters from ebay for my krasnogorsk 3, connected it up , seems to work nicely, just wondering if you have used them before?

Have you ever video tapped a krasnogorsk?

thelastsamurai

heres a few pics of how it should work
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Krasnogorsk-...age_Cameras?hash=item3efacd85ec#ht_500wt_1182



Welcome!

The Krasnogorsk K-3 is a solid, well built 16mm camera than can be converted
to super16. It takes 100’ daylight spools - about two and a half minutes. Its
motor is loud so that makes it difficult when recording sound and that 100'
spool makes for short takes and lots of reloading.

But it's a great camera. I put mine in a car we drove off a 45' cliff. The lens
broke, but I still use the camera.
 
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I use a modified ultra-16 bolex camera. Excellent mechanics, easy to use and all round great first camera for very little money. You can shoot sync sound as long as you have a motor attached and blimp the camera. With a little imagination in post (ie background music in foreground with actual dialog in background) you can create an excellent picture and still cover a majority the sound. I ltend to shoot using a telephoto lens 55mm or longer, so I can have the camera far away from the microphone and still be able to frame close to the action.
 
If $1,500 is for just the camera, and not the lenses and film, then you might be able to spend some time and get a used one on Ebay, but if that is for your entire camera package, your going to be in a bit of trouble.
 
If you're shooting any kind of sound scenes in your feature, don't use a K-3, Bolex or similar cameras, because you'll have spend a lot of time and money re-doing your sound.

For your price range I would consider a CP-16 modified with an Ultra-16 gate. You can find one on ebay for cheap. Cinelcious handles transfers. Here's a link to there page on Ultra-16: http://www.cinelicious.tv/?page_id=39

Here's a link to a CP16 on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Cinema-Products...ViewItemQQptZFilm_Cameras?hash=item3ca86488a7

$1500 isn't much of a budget for a Super-16 camera or even a camera to be modified to Ultra 16.

Just some thoughts.

Scott
 
Your absolute best bet here is to work with a DP that owns a super-16 kit! It won't be free, but his/her rate will include everything you need to shoot except the film, and you may be able to work a deal. Also since it's owned gear, it will professional grade, and well-kept.
 
Sounds like a lot of great advice.

Indietalk, can you tell what sort of rates such a DP would/should charge for that arrangement? That is, are there any industry or indie-culture norms for those rates, as far as you are familiar with?
 
I know this is out of your budget, Callum, (and mine), but because I'm curious about super 16mm, too, I've been doing some googling and thought I'd share a couple of my finds, so far.

I followed Herb's info and found this sweet sounding converted CP-16R http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-16-CP16R-Camera-Pkg.,-Cinema-Products,-Widescreen_W0QQitemZ260535096593QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20100109?IMSfp=TL100109224006r10938. Notice how the seller claims it's very quiet shooting? I'm with you on the sound thing... I would not want to deal with noise problems, uck.

And just for fun and perhaps to drool over?
http://www.aaton.com/products/film/aminima/

And then... Hallelujah! http://www.aaton.com/products/film/xtera/index.php.
 
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CP-16R

I know this is out of your budget, Callum, (and mine), but because I'm curious about super 16mm, too, I've been doing some googling and thought I'd share a couple of my finds, so far.

I followed Herb's info and found this sweet sounding converted CP-16R http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-16-CP16R-Camera-Pkg.,-Cinema-Products,-Widescreen_W0QQitemZ260535096593QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20100109?IMSfp=TL100109224006r10938. Notice how the seller claims it's very quiet shooting? I'm with you on the sound thing... I would not want to deal with noise problems, uck.

And just for fun and perhaps to drool over?
http://www.aaton.com/products/film/aminima/

And then... Hallelujah! http://www.aaton.com/products/film/xtera/index.php.


I want to chime in here. I've bought and sold cameras most of my career. I currently own and shoot on a converted CP-16R with the B/W tap, and it has been one of my best buys. The camera paid for itself. I love these cameras. They are workhorses, and if they're maintained and lubricated they are very quiet. I shot commercials and films with critical sound and never had any noise problems. I recommend using the mag blimp, which makes it much more quiet. Check with Ken at Whitehouse A/V. He rebuilds the CP's and has all the weird things they designed for the camera. It's a wonderful camera system when you have all the bells and whistles. The CP was so successful back in the 60's and the reliability of it was so strong that CP created a studio version. They upgraded the viewfinder with a brighter orientable one, they added a 7" extension eyepiece, and upgraded the J4 Zoom Control. They also created a Video tap and a set of super speed lenses.

The secret to CP-16's today is in the lenses. Cinema Products actually made a set of super speed primes (called the Ultra-T's that opened up to T1.25). They created their own housings and licensed Kowa glass from Japan, and they competed with the Zeiss MK1's. I've seen side by side tests between Ultra-T's and the Zeiss, and the zeiss seems to saturate the colors more truthfully, but results vary since the same color tones can be achieved with little effort. I personally love the look of the Ultra T's over the Zeiss, because the image looks different than the Optima's or the MK2's. It keeps its sharpness and I;ve gotten different looks from it. There's a particular quality I like with the Vivid and the Ultra-T's.

The Angie. Zooms on the CP work fine, but they sometimes don't hold up at 2k HDSR. You should avoid zoom lenses, unless you are just starting. If you have experience on HD, then you are best sticking with a camera with primes. I don't know many CP owners that have the Ultra T's. Whitehouse was selling some rare old-New stock of an Angie Compact Zooms a few years ago that looked great on the CP16R conversion. The compact Angie covers S16mm, and it holds up against the primes. I hear those Angie Compact zooms work great with the RED too. Unfortunately the synonymous 12-120 does not cover S16mm, so plan on buying primes or getting a PL mount on your CP conversion. You can basically rebuild any CP16 for about $1200 at Whitehouse. A super16mm conversion w/ tap at VP runs at around $3k-$4k I believe. If you buy on ebay for $1200 and convert it for $3k, you'll have a freshly rebuilt S16mm sync camera for less than $5k. And you can pick a set of older zeiss' off ebay for anywhere between $500-$1000 a piece. And if you want the footage to compete with the RED or HD, then plan on a spirit2K to HDSR transfer at around $300-$500/hr. Just keep that in mind. It's not cheap if you hate grain and like color.

As for rental price on a S16mm camera like this? Use the rental cost of an ArriSR2 package as a start. I would say $250-$500/day for operator and gear, depending on the type of show it is. I've worked for as much as$400/500 and also for free. It varies, like everything else. Hope this helps you die-hard shutterbugs.
 
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