it's time for a new independent movie industry

This site is a good place for early writers, or students of any subject, to exchange ideas. It’s just like the café near my school except that I don’t have to brush my teeth to think out loud here.

I've been around too many people who are just full of 'Hot Air'
– I am sorry for that.

The exchange of ideas: not the same as blowing hot air. I could guess your politics (Fascist.) If you don’t think you are fascists, you should think about it some more.

Sorry for the aggression, just returned from a trip to our nations capitol where I sat with Thomas Jefferson for a couple of hours. I am now thinking of writing a screenplay starring George Washington. But I think I will save it for when I can assure a 180 million dollar budget. That would come after all the screenplays I sell get me some notoriety so that I can do whatever I want.
 
I’m working with several companies that are financing and distributing small movies ($10,000 to $80,000). The two biggest problems are exactly what you mention:

1- Good, watchable product
2- Marketing

The money is there, the outlets are there, the audience is there. The good product isn’t and marketing isn’t.

The advent of cheap, high quality production and editing equipment hasn’t made the final product better. In fact the product has gotten worse. Now a movie maker can finish a feature length movie for well under $2,000.

I think that what this really proves is that Filmjumper is essentially right, that people are not paying enough attention to the sales value of thier scripts. Productions costs really aren't the issue any more.

The one place that the indie industry really needs to put more effort is into script development. The problem with this is that everyone thinks that they can write, and that they are an undiscovered and misunderstood genius. This attitude makes them blind to the faults in their own work. (I'm as guilty as anyone else in this respect).

Good scripts that can be summed up in one sentence that will go on a DVD cover, with an idea that will make people want to see the movie, even if it's got no stars. That's the key.
 
visit any other filmmaking forum and you probably find the same marketing ideas being discuss which if there were the financing backing these ideas could be carried out, it is time to discuss new ideas to find this financing backing, or find a way to do it without this backing and draw the backing to it,

as the movie project I designed in a way as to bring so much attention to it in Chicago that it would draw financiers, why not use a similar technique?, as we speak of writing better scripts and better quality movies do some exist already?, the search for the best independent movie will galvanized or at least focus attention on the Independent filmmaking community,

when this movie is chosen it must be backed by everyone (well at least most) in the community, it must be recommended to others, a trailer played on all the television shows of independent filmmakers, a trailer placed on the end of all filmmakers DVD’s, placed on everyone’s website, the trailer placed on sites that have streaming video, even placed on cable access shows and this movie billed as the best independent movie made this year or something like that, and for some of the other good movies that were not chosen but are just as good their movie trailers could be placed on the DVD as a recommendation to buy them,

what ever movie is chosen will result such a controversy that would cause everyone to want to watch it or buy it or burn it, with millions in the independent filmmakers community recommendation or possible loathing of this movie it would bring in so much attention that the makers of this movie will easily make a million dollars and that would give this community power, and when any force has the power to make someone into a millionaire it will draw serious financiers and create a industry, it would also give filmmakers the insentive to produce better movies,

but whatever is done it is time to take some action, discussion is nice but as many in this forum pointed out it will begin to fizzle
 
when this movie is chosen it must be backed by everyone (well at least most) in the community

I agree that spreading the collective word on good indie movies is in everyone's best interest, but I think you're aiming your marketing at the wrong people. The indie filmmaking community by itself is too small to represent a real opportunity to get a return on your film. It's the film buying public, the arthouse cinema goers, the TV watchers that really matter.
Ultimately for the indie filmaker you are marketing your film to just a couple of hundred people, the buyers for the distribution companies, the sales agents and the press. The distribution companies just want to believe that they can make a return from your film, the TV buyers want to see more back from advertising than it cost to buy your film and the press need an angle that well help them sell more papers/magazines and to advertising onto their radio/TV station.
I read somewhere that once you get past the surface all jobs are basically sales jobs. This is doubly true in the film industry. The reason that so many indies struggle to get pictures made and distributed is because they pay insufficient attention to what's involved in selling.
Actually selling is really easy providing you know the rules.
1) If you don't speak to people about your product they won't buy it
2) If you don't speak to the people who are in a position to say yes to the sale they won't buy it (In sales this person is called the decision maker, this is the person who can yes to the buy, whereas everyone below them can only say no)
3) If you don't understand what it is about your product that is going to help the buyer achieve their personal/professional goals and ambitions you won't make a sale.
4) If you listen to a person long enough, instead of taliking, eventually they'll tell you what they need to hear to buy from you.
5) If someone is prepared to sit across a desk from you 99% of the time they are prepared to buy if the deal is right.
6) Know what your bottom line price is before you walk through the door and don't drop below that unless they put something on the table that make no impossible (No body respects someone who doesn't value their product)

The thing about htis formula is that it applies equally to investors as it does to distributors. Failure to find either funding or distribution is about not having one of the above steps covered.

So,
a) If you haven't actually asked anyone for funding/distribution (waiting of the magic elves), you won't get it
b) If you waste your time ptiching to people who have neither the authority or the ability to say yes to funding or distribution you won't get it. So, If you take send your gore horror film to a distributor who only distributes family animation, guess what.
c) If you don't understand how the investor/distributor is going to make a profit from your film then your pitch about the gorund braking cinematograpy is going to acheive nothing. 99% of the time understand how the distributor makes their profit is the key to selling.
d) If you don't know, but are prepared to ask simple grown up questions like "So, what do need from a movie for it to rock your world?" you might make a sale.
e) It's really true that every funder is looking for the golden goose and every distributor is looking for the next big thing, and they really want it to be you, other wise they wouldn't bother talking to you.
f) A film is worth what someone will pay for it, if you roll over on whatever price is offered rather than being seen as accomodating the value of the product will come under question.


I know for myself that I can look at the above list and tell you exactly why I haven't got either funding or distribution for my next film. Not enough of 1 or 2 because I haven't got a clear hook on 3.

I'm telling you baby the same is true of most indies. Not enough face to face converstaions with the right people with the right products to offer them.

Bottom line is that what I'm saying is that before anyone goes out and trys to invent a new indsutry maybe we should learn how to do business in this one. Or at least have the common sense to recognise that we don't have those skills and form working relationships with producers who do have those skills.
 
my last post is not about brown-nosing a fianancier, it's about if the Independent filmmakers are really a community or just a fable and in reality each person is out for themselves, which seems the case so far
...and speaking of fables let me explain my last post another way...let's say those little elves granted me one wish , and the wish was that everyone that was a part of the independent filmmaking community which totals in the millions agreed to use all their resouces to push one Independent movie that is already made but went no where in the festivals or whatever...and they would use all their resources like websites, cable shows, tatoo on the back of their head etc. to accomplish this,
in other words the community with these in your face actions at the public would be the advertisment... but in reality once human emotions is factor in there would be so much in fighting by those for and against the chosen movie or feel like their movie should have been in the running that the controversy about the movie would bring so much attention to it that the movie would still sell ...not saying to do this or even if it would work ..just an idea
 
OH! Now I understand it, Funches.

I think you might be on to something...

Like, for example, if every film production site joined a sort of "webring" where one independent film would be featured each month. Filmmakers could submit films to the ring, and each month a new film would be featured. The filmmakers could submit thier films to be featured.

You should get a website started, Funches, with the idea of featuring one indie film a month, and having banner/link exchanges with all filmmakers.

That'd be a way to start, and if it starts to do well, you could get money for larger scale advertising of films and the website itself.

Hmm.. I can see now a little more clearly where you're going...
 
That's pretty cool, actually... An independant movie ring... that 1 movie would be promoted on all the filmmakers sites for one month.. then the next movie and so-on.

I can see problems with it but the good out weighs the bad...
 
vegasindiestv said:
Talk is great doing is much greater....

Vegas, you've summed up what I said earlier in a much needed sentance. Thank you. That's what I meant about 'Hot Air'... it's all very well talking about these things, but I've had this conversation over and over and over and... its starting to get me edgy.
 
my last post is not about brown-nosing a fianancier

Well at least I now know why you can't get your pictures funded. You can't tell the difference between pitching a mutually beneficial business deal and ass kissing. (By the way distributors and investors hate ass kissing, it's not good business)

it's about if the Independent filmmakers are really a community or just a fable and in reality each person is out for themselves, which seems the case so far

All you need to disprove the idea that it's all everyone is just out for themselves is for you to offer to promote someone elses movie for free in order to set up your alternative industry. Lead by example man, after all you are the man with the plan. Or is this all just hot air?

I don't think this is going to happen, because I think that the root of this is that it's easier to blame the industry for not recognising you and to then to blame the rest of the film making community for not supporting you, as the causes of your lack of sucess, rather than doing the work to get that sucess.

Of course I could be wrong and I'll be the first to apologise if you actually take someone elses film and make a sucess of marketing it.
 
Yes I may have a plan and a simply plan but first let me show an example of the concept that I have in mind…Since there is no big money we must find a way to turn this disadvantage into an advantage

But first we will need a sacrificial lamb to test this concept, I choose Shot Renegade, He’s always claiming that nothing gets done, and every time I go to his website it always have…under construction

Now what if every member on this site committed to visiting his site everyday or at least every time he posted here and see what if anything changed

What do you believe will be the results of this action?
Will he make his site work, will he rant less in his post and offer options, will he not change and keep his site as it is? Even that action would tell you something, will more people visit this site?, and if his site do get to working, will this make everyone look forward to surf thru the site, will this put Shot Renegade in the lime light now and people wish to know of his projects, will a financier be more incline to finance his projects

The test was that we took the disadvantage of Shot Renegade's negativity and turn it into an advantage, every time someone read this post they may visit his site, maybe even a financier or distributor if he has a movie, but It would have some type of effect that the results could be predicted

But this is only an example to help explain the concept and not meant to be carried out, it was used to help to explain the power that already exist… when that power is focus..

And was this a free way to promote something?....no.. because even this site is not 100 percent free, nothing is free if may cost you something, I’m just saying that if you can’t get a financier find another way to do things
 
As hard as it is to break into movie making this seems like a great idea! If we all combine or resouces we could knock hollywood on its a**. Remember people at one time independent filmmakers saved Hollywood although today you would never know it! :grumpy:
 
I know I said I wouldn't make any additional posts in this thread, but this one is not about BITNOT.

Funches, IMO, your thread may propose an interesting model for distributing indie works (perhaps a little fascist, as alluded to earlier). But the one thing it is, is self-serving. From what I can tell, all your posts seek funding. These boards are made for discussing other aspects of the artform, not just self-promotion. Why not use that energy to actually work on your film. I know one, definitive way to revolutionize Indie filmmaking, SHOW us something we could never have imagined in a million years. But, if your intention is to change indie industry/business then use your energy and methodology to unionize, thereby having the power to (as Clive said) change the "Industry" from the indside out.
 
...first, I want to say that I'm glad this thread is still here as I have not been for a few days. And I am glad that this is really about some ideas to improve all our chances to get our stuff seen and not a pitch for money as I thought it was initially. Hey, I can admit when I misunderstand something, which brings me to this...

Like, for example, if every film production site joined a sort of "webring" where one independent film would be featured each month. Filmmakers could submit films to the ring, and each month a new film would be featured. The filmmakers could submit thier films to be featured.

FUNCHES... this isn't what I thought you meant...

...if this is what you meant, then part of the problem is maybe you aren't being clear, (I have been away so I am reading the thread quickly so I can remember what I want to say :blush: ) IF you mean rally around A FILM, not necessarily YOUR FILM, then I can see how your intent is to really come up with a way to change things and that is an important thing....

...people aren't necessarily just out for themselves, people ARE wary of anything that sounds to esoteric or too philosophical in terms of making decisions that are going to CHANGE THEIR LIVES. Nobody wants to get taken or put money into anything that is going to have no return. You aren't up against people being out for themselves so much as you are against people who are being practical about something they already have to be philosophical about, which is making movies. (does that make sense?)

...the idea of reform and everyone pulling together is good, however, how do we do this? I know if I were to be involved, I would want direct steps. What do we do first? Who do we talk to? Do we have to start from the ground up? Maybe there is no one to talk to because its a new idea. How much time can I/do I have to put into this? And more importantly: Are there people around me who will commit to this and not punk out when things don't happen overnight.

...change is good, but the RISK is quite daunting. There is safety in numbers, though, the more people committed to the idea, the better the chances...

--spinner :cool:
 
Just to do a little market research, hands up any one on this thread who believes that by agreeing to visit Shot Renegade's website twice a day for the next year we will magically bring about a new era of independent filmmaking, where we will all have distributors and investors banging on our doors?
 
...hey...er..Clive...perhaps you just didn't read the post about the (Shot Renegade Experiment) clearly,remember in my post I used the words, that this is an example, a test, a concept , an example to help explain the concept?.......hey, Bird understood that it was only an example...well maybe ...Clive the post was only an example but since you mention Shot Renegade"s site in your post, I think I will visit it and see it anything has changed...
 
...hey...er..Clive...perhaps you just didn't read the post about the (Shot Renegade Experiment) clearly,remember in my post I used the words, that this is an example, a test, a concept , an example to help explain the concept?

So it's an example. An example of what? If it's not relelvant to your approach, why use it as an example?

The problem I have with your whole approach to this is that you are saying nothing at all. It's all smoke and mirrors.

You say you want a new industry but fail to explain how it's going to work or how people can participate. When people pressed you on it you give an "example." When I point out that the example is beyond idiotic, you say "Hey, it's just an example." You can't have it all ways. Either publish a strategy here that people can look and and form opinions about or shut up and stop wasting everyone's time.

And by the way, unless you are a mind reader you've got no way of knowing what I do or don't read. And, if you are mind reader tune into what I'm thinking right now!

Did you get that?
 
Bird understood that it was only an example...well maybe

Well, first, you're not going to draw any allies with derogatory remarks.

Whether you know it or not, your 'concept' is simply socialism applied to a particular practical study...filmmaking. Past working models of socialism have, pretty much, failed (I'm making no judgement on it's theoretical idealism), most probably because we humans have an basic, reptilian instinct to survive (which is not conducive to 'loving/helping thy neighbor).

You say your 'model' will help all of us and that it was not your intention to use your work as a flagship....The only posts you've made here are on your own threads: An Invitation to a Strange Chicago Scriptwriter (apparentlly you haven't EVEN WRITTEN this masterpiece you want the rest of us to bank), 2)Seeking a Financier of Horror, and this thread. With this posting record, it says to me that you're not interested in discourse but in financing your film under the guise of 'this will be good for us all'. Perhaps...in a perfect world.
 
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