Agents

BY agent, are you referring to a Producer's Rep? Even so, all the contacts I've had with successful filmmakers (they have produced and sold their movies) recommended we get a rep. It's REALLY hard to get your foot in the door without someone knowing which door needs to be opened. As it turned out, we sent our movie to different reps around the country and they all turned it down (not confident they can sell a movie that has no named actors or didn't fit into a specific genre).

So, asking someone to help you sell your movie is a must but you might actually have to pay to have them handle it (EVERYONE on this board will say never pay a rep ... but if they turn you down you might have no other choice).

The companies we sent our feature to were (some of these are distributors):

Mark Steven Bosko
Jon Chance
Duncan Montgomery
Int-Entertainment
CinemaVault
York Entertainment
Cinetic Media
Warner Independent Pictures
Ochovo Distributors
The Film Source
ZIA FILM DISTRIBUTION LLC
ITN Distribution
Page Ostrow
Supersonic Films (UK)
Cornerstone Productions
Allied Entertainment Group, Inc.
Image Entertainment
Joey Siracusa (Lee Miller/Jon Cutler)
Showcase Entertainment (Cara Shapiro)
Spotlight Pictures (Matt)
MTI Home Video (Jay Grossman)

In addition to this list we also sent to about 35 festivals (all rejected the movie) and a handful of other helpful people.

As of this moment ... we still have no distribution deals.

Christian of Recon 2020 should talk about this more, so should Peter John Ross, as I have learned from others, smaller festivals also helps (all festivals organizers talks to each other, one example: a small festival in TX happens to be working with Austin Film Festival and with SXSW) and since the smaller festival director loved AJC, he is planning to show it during a special programming at Austin's festival - didn't made it into SXSW but at least it's going places by itself), they help garner some attention, then attend film markets yourself and go through the in and out of things happening at these film markets, they would give you some idea of what is best to do with your movie.

If a sales rep, who likes your movie and want to take your movie to film markets, then you can work with them at the same time do some leg work yourself as well. As I've also noticed, the most legit film reps (or sales agent) would never charge you upfront to go represent you, however, they will do their best to sell your stuff at film markets and if it gets sold, they charge from 25% to 35% fees. Some goes to one, others goes to several film markets.

So, Christian/Peter would give you more input. I have a feature that went through AFM but didn't got sold (not the genre people were interested) and it was represented for no cost unless it was sold (non-exclusive, 1 year agreement), so is right now AJC is heading to some of the film markets (starting with Cannes) and it is also being taken without me paying anything upfront, chances of success? No idea, but I'll hope for the best, AJC is only a short film anyway, so if it got distributed, I don't even worrying about $ as long as it's out there (and that is why the teaser for The Rapture was created, to be taken to these film markets, most buyers, if they like AJC but don't want to commit, would probably ask my rep. "so, what's their next project?" and my rep would say "Funny you should've asked, they are doing The Rapture, here's a sneak teaser for preview" At least, the name of the film has been broadcast.

Mind you, with what I've learned, buyers do not care much of the plot or story (they have no time) to read/sort through the amount of films they are looking to sell, in their mind, their first thing is "would the film makes big money for me?" if that can be answered, the next will be 'was it shot in film? and on" but as I was told by others who attended the Sundance/Cannes/AFM markets, they care about what it can be sold 'quickly' than what has good plot or action.

All true

mdifilm said:

Mind you, with what I've learned, buyers do not care much of the plot or story (they have no time) to read/sort through the amount of films they are looking to sell, in their mind, their first thing is "would the film makes big money for me?" if that can be answered, the next will be 'was it shot in film? and on" but as I was told by others who attended the Sundance/Cannes/AFM markets, they care about what it can be sold 'quickly' than what has good plot or action.

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... this is all true. Our movie is a talkie. "Dinner with Andre" with bullets. Two guys at a table. Makes a better play. It's hard to categorize and therefore hard to sell. If we got picked up at even ONE of the "bigger" festivals ... we would get courted by a distributor/rep. As it is ... looks like I might be self-distributing.

Mind you, with what I've learned, buyers do not care much of the plot or story

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This is a really misleading statement, because although there is some truth to it, it isn't literally true.

Distributors are by definition looking for things that will turn a profit and understand that unless a film has already established an audience by generating the right kind of press, then it will have to sell on it's cover and it's core concept.

This is why high concept is so important to them -- it's also why initially they don't want to either listen to or hear a blow by blow account of the story -- what they're interested in is whether the concept is so easily iunderstood and at the same time attractive, that it will sell off a poster [in basic terms - a single defining visual image, a title and ten words]

If you can supply those basic factors -- at that point they become interested in the story -- but they get it from watching the film! The story at that point is massively important because if it's great, they can sell the film into lots of market places and it will do good business.

This is the reason distributors watch screeners all day -- if the story wasn't important they wouldn't bother!

So, the reality of the matter isn't that distributors aren't interested in story -- it's more that when they ask you what's it about and you launch into a thirty minute treatment, what you're really saying to them is "This film is going to be impossible to sell off a poster"

Clive, I hope you didn't take my words out of the context, I did say buyers do not care much on the plot or story, and you just re-enforce that by the statement of "a single defining visual image, a title and ten words" that's not the story just a tag line or sort My point was they have no time... They have a lot to buy and little time to listen/watch a 60 mins film at film markets (again, as most of the time).

For what I've learned is based on these: Haywire, for example, a film I coproduce, iwell shot, well lit, good story, fun, great audio, etc. It was sold out in two theater at a festival simultaneoulsy with over 500 people and then another two sold out showing in the same city, about 4 trailers was cut to try to please the rep. to take it to AFM and all, and it was a well written indie film with a mafia styled genre, unfortunately after 1 year, it was turned down by many because it's not interesting enough. Our rep said it's not a marketable film but it does have a good story to it. Same said by the late Neil Frederick, during several telephone conversation with him back then when he was DPing about 4-5 films, he said the buyers were more interested on marketable films and not the story, and since he was producing urban films it was sellable, but not much of 'story' (he admitted as well), same goes with other films that I've talked to, if stars are not in it, the buyers would go for 'what's the best he/she can get out of it' then they go from there. Same during my conversation with Stephen L. that works on the tv show Charmed.

Once there is a negotiation, obviously the buyer will ask for screeners, they are: 1. for it to see if it's marketable or not, meaning, if this film has selling points, and how easily it's sellable. 2. to figure out if they can represent it and make profit. They really can't sell a movie based on story only, it's really hard and it's really harder within the indies. Again, there is always exceptions.

So, that's what I've learned, again, its' the reality from people who were there and people who told me up my face what I didn't do right. I might be wrong, they might be wrong, all I know is, films that have story and was explained well at a film market and what others had told me who had been there, I didn't go far, but films that are horror slashers with no story or a film with action with no story/plot, or a really really BAD kungfu movie, gets further than those with great story and plot, that's my reality.

CLieve should've help sell Haywire then hehe.

Clive, I hope you didn't take my words out of the context, I did say buyers do not care much on the plot or story, and you just re-enforce that by the statement of "a single defining visual image, a title and ten words" that's not the story just a tag line or sort My point was they have no time... They have a lot to buy and little time to listen/watch a 60 mins film at film markets (again, as most of the time).

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Nah, it's in my nature to clarify - so I could see what you were saying and just wanted to put it in my own words.

And I'm by no means an expert on getting films sold -- I've learned everything I know by achieving the opposite!

So, that's what I've learned, again, its' the reality from people who were there and people who told me up my face what I didn't do right. I might be wrong, they might be wrong, all I know is, films that have story and was explained well at a film market and what others had told me who had been there, I didn't go far, but films that are horror slashers with no story or a film with action with no story/plot, or a really really BAD kungfu movie, gets further than those with great story and plot, that's my reality.

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I think you're right, but I've got a slightly different take on it.

I think lots of indies realise they can make and sell bad films within certain genres and go down that route because being a "successful film maker" is more important to them than making good films.

However, I think it is possible to sell a no name film, with a great story providing the following is true:

1) It's a high concept - compelling idea
2) The story is perfectly structured
3) The writing is stunning
4) It's visually unique and finished to professional standards
5) The acting transcends the fact that there are no names in it.
6) You've cut an unbelievable trailer

The truth is that this is not true of almost every indie film ever made -- which are in the main --

1) Not high concept and not a compelling idea
2) Imperfectly structured or often "what do you mean, structure!"
3) The writing swings between appalling, not bad and good but patchy
4) Is visually unremarkable
5) The acting swings between -- bloody awful and adaquate
6) The trailer is nothing special

Any film that achieves all of top list is really going to stand out -- do well at festivals and pick up a reputation and on the back of that do business.

The point I'm trying to make is that this is very hard to achieve -- I tried to do it with my first feature and got points 1, 2 and 6 wrong and didn't quite clear the bar on the other three -- because of that the film has tanked.

I think the indie screenwriter has to set their standards incredibly high to make stuff work -- not "is this as good as stuff that's getting distributed," but instead "would this screenplay secure an Oscar nomination"

This is not a business where "It's OK" is going to be enough.

If we're going to compete with billion dollar pictures the only area where we can equal and out do the big guys is in the quality of the writing and the uniqueness of our visual approach.

Clive, agreed too, for me, it's really hard to achieve a good story and trying to sell it that doesn't have 'action' because it's hard to always use that to 'raise' funding and I always ended up being poorer than before Don't get me wrong, I love the process, I love the product (film) I've put out, and I have seen how many, or majority of people enjoyed it.

But they haven't brought me enough funds to make a bigger film, they do, however brought me a stronger crew and cast to work with.

Since now i'm getting older, I kinda making a goal for myself of what I would like to do in another 5 years: making a really nice huge hollywod styled film with good story and content but with really cheap budget and prove it is possible (I hope)... (Mind you, I do set goals for myself at yearly basis, but the older I get, my goal gets more 'defined).

So for my perspective (my goal and as this is how I am aiming for, not necessarily would work for you), is to get enough films made from now to then that are 'OUT' there, meaning being distributed, and then use that as a 'trademark' or 'credential' to rally more support and funds to get the movie I want to make made. (Seriously, in here this town, and probably other cities, investors are small, medium, large businesses that their mind is about what would benefit them than what would benefit the filmmaker, for them, it would be quicker to release a check of xxxx amount because they've seen your work at video stores, not necessarily be good film but it's out there so they wouldn't mind banking to your next cause they figured if you already have it out there, it's 'less' riskier for them to lose their $).

So, once I have those checks pouring in, I can dictate what sort of 'film' I can made, yes, they can have a say or two, but since they saw my 'track record' they would prefer me do it my way. Case in point, I just signed a deal with a client who because of AJC and what he saw of the teaser Rapture, he's giving me a soccer instructional video made for $10k, which we'll be starting working on it this coming month... But if you ask him to donate/invest $ for the feature, he said no, cause honesly, he didn't see the benefit nor he'd seen anything at store front, but he wanted me to shoot his instructional video because he liked the style... Another person, who saw the teaser, approached me the next day to ask, "what should I do to donate $?" again, it was thanks to previous films that I've made and he heard about it. However, in my reality here, it's much harder to sell a film project to anyone else because even you have enough credential and such, if your film isn't at a video store that they can 'actually' see it, they wouldn't care...

So.... I am 'whoring' a bit before getting what I want, I think I have to do that just because it's much quicker to raise fund (by having enough 'store showcase' credibility to prove that movies made by me, is out there on shelf for renter) and it would be easier to attract bigger funding.

Bug my ultimate goal, to make a really good tear jerker film... That when you leave the theatre, you cry because of the story, type... (reminding me when I was a kid and saw a movie about this cancer kid, and when it's done, I walked out crying...) I like that... (call me sissy).

DISCLAIMER: this is not to say my way of doing it is the right way, but it's different method, and I've choosen to do this way after talking to many people, Peter John Ross, Mike ConWay our sell reps, Steven L. Eric S., those here at this forum and at other forums, etc. and I realized, perhaps I looked at it too involved in a filmmaker's perspective, and since now I'm heading to golden age, I rather want to see what I would have down the road to make a bigger film without me always searching like made for $ (you still search, but your road would be easier). I do graciously thank the opportunity to make short and feature films to help me horn my perspective, and since I came from a marketing background, I've easily managed to get my films out there, but then just isn't enough... Now I want more!

So, this is the first time I've posted something of this type, kinda revealing my method of doing movies and I think it can benefit to anyone as a 'learning' process, do not copy this method unless you understand the principal behind it. Everyone is different, and like martial arts, you don't learn a style becaue it's cool, you adept it into your life to make it part of you. So goes with anyhing you do that you are putting your passion into it. Once they become you, it will just provide you the outlet.

And one thing to add to Clive's on screenwriters has to set their standards incredibly high, I also say the filmmakers who are making those screenplays SHOULD also set their standards high. A good script can be translated into a garbish visual story if both aren't putting their best together to work.

A horror film with nudity will sell (even if it's bad). Just call Asylum.

In hindsight this is the kind of movie I would have started with. My phone would be ringing off the wall (since the writing and technical quality and acting would have all been great). Sell the bad movie and this is your proof as a Producer (probably more than triple someone's $25,000 investment). Once you tell ANYONE you can triple money in a year, they'll easily pony up a million.

Then you attach actors to a GREAT story and you're up and running.

Anyone want to throw me $25K to make a bad horror movie with nudity?

A horror film with nudity will sell (even if it's bad). Just call Asylum.

In hindsight this is the kind of movie I would have started with. My phone would be ringing off the wall (since the writing and technical quality and acting would have all been great). Sell the bad movie and this is your proof as a Producer (probably more than triple someone's $25,000 investment). Once you tell ANYONE you can triple money in a year, they'll easily pony up a million.

Then you attach actors to a GREAT story and you're up and running.

Anyone want to throw me $25K to make a bad horror movie with nudity?

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But, wouldn't it be better to make a great horror movie with nudity!

And ironically my exprience is that commercial sucess isn't the only route to bigger budgets -- my ex-business partner has now made three features, none of which achieved any form of commerical sucess and he's currently in pre-production on a $10M dollar picture -- which I'm informed has an absolutely awful script.

I'm beyond understanding that -- but this is a strange business.

probably he loves to kiss butts. (as a joke)

it is surely a strange business. I even have no understanding, how a film, that I know of, who has the lousiest story and audio (even the director herself told me so right at my face) got into Sundance than those others who are better didn't...

And it's interesting to hear this from my exec producers telling me not to make the same genre for the next film so I won't be locked a 'type'... perhaps I'll make that horror flicks with nudity.

Thanks to everyone who as commented on this thread. It's all very interesting.

And mdifilm... it seems that even if your first feature (or several) don't achieve commercial success it at least proves to investors you can still complete a project and people are willing to take you a little more seriously. That's what it seems like anyway.

probably he loves to kiss butts. (as a joke)

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Funny.

But actually I think the deal is that once a producer can demonstrate that they can handle reasonable (for an indie) sized budgets -- then even if the films tanked, they can always blame the script or the lack of budget for the faliure of the previous picture.

So with No Place he can go -- "Hey we made this with $500,000 -- but if we'd had $3M to get some names on board and some help with script development we would have romped Cannes. -- now that I've dumped my old writer [me] and got this script that will be the next 'Lock, Stock' with the right budget this will be massive."

The truth is that even with a film that doesn't do business, providing the production values are right, you'll always form relationships with distributors who say -- "I liked the look of the last film, even though we passed -- bring me a British gangster flick and we'll talk."

And the truth of the matter is that teh universal response to No Place was "We love what you've attmepted to do with this movie, who love how it looks and the performances, we just can't work out how to make a profit from it without significant festival coverage."

So it's not always about trading down. -- I genuinely hope he makes it big -- he's worked hard enough to achieve it -- and I'm not competting with him -- my ambitions lie elsewhere.

Plus, I'm a kind of unusual in the industry in that I think that you don't judge a film by it's budget but by it's margin.

all true.

I like to know that I can make the visual art as I want to, but of course, people will tend to ask, "how much was your budget" if I can say "oh just $50k" and they would look surprise, then I hope their next words coming out would be "here's $30k, make me one like this"

Then I negotiate....

This thread been very educational for me, seeing it in a different perspective, it helps confirm the direction I'm heading, which is giving me more confident on what I'm doing so far.

Movie making is soo tiresome, especially for indes, not only you have to sit with different hats of responsibility, you also have to be up to the 'news' to know what's out there... and then on top of that, write, promote, market, publicise, kisses asses, etc.

Very interesting thread... Interesting perspectives...

And yet through it all, ONE THING keeps screaming at me...

STORY!

I can't help but wonder what would happen if clive and mdifilm both made films with high concept, well told stories. Obviously, you guys know how to make a film. You've got the technical part down.

No offense, but I keep reading and hearing the sentence (not necessarily from this thread), "Such and such film had a great story but it still wasn't successful."

Meaning that it's not always the story that makes a film successful...

I have to wholeheartedly disagree here. 99% of the time, when someone tells me that such and such film had a great story/screenplay but still bombed, I am very skeptical. And, 99% of the time when I watch that film and or read that screenplay, guess what?

The story sucked.

It failed on many levels of storytelling.

It looked stunning... The visuals were impressive but without the STORY being the needle that threads it all together, nothing really happens in the movie that we CARE about.

Story and the screenplay is and probably always will be the most overlooked aspect of making an Indie film. This aspect continues to blow me away because it just seems to be a no-brainer.

We have to remember that with each major film that comes out with even JUST attempts to break any kind of new ground, the bar has just been raised for everyone...

Indies included.

An "okay" story just isn't going to get it done these days... There's too much information floating around. That might have worked 30 years ago but not today... There's too much stimulation going on all around us.

We must raise the bar... And where we might not be able to do that with our actual production, we can certainly do it with the story.

We can all be on a level playing ground when it comes to STORY if we just take the initiative to actually learn the craft and not simulate some other movie that's been done to death.

Sure... Horror films can make money... We've heard this left and right and to a degree, it's true. But a small Indie horror film is just that... The small Indie horror films without the high concept behind it might make money for the filmmaker but not the kind of money that will allow you to do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it...

You'll still have to go out and do things you might not have otherwise done to put food on the table... Did somebody call that, "whoring?"

Don't get me wrong...

I think any filmmaker that has the ability to make a film (even a short) LOOK GOOD i.e., comparable with what's being released today is way ahead of the game... But that ability IN AND OF ITSELF is going to maybe get you a job as a director...

IF YOU'RE LUCKY.

Whereas...

Becoming a serious student of STORY puts a lot of power into your hands. Combine that power with the ability to shoot a film that looks good and you've got a million dollar combination ready to explode.

Don't be fooled into thinking that you can "just get by" with a so-so story.

BULLSHIT.

Take that extra 6 months and hone that story down so that we all sit up and take notice and walk out of the theater not only talking about the movie, but the filmmaker/storyteller as well.

And remember...

More screenwriters have gone on to become amazing filmmakers than the other way around...

filmy

EDIT: I just realized that this thread was about AGENTS (kind of) so I apologize for going off topic... I got caught up in reading the thread and was simply adding to it based on the current content... My apologies to Thunderclap...

Filmy
EDIT: I just realized that this thread was about AGENTS (kind of) so I apologize for going off topic... I got caught up in reading the thread and was simply adding to it based on the current content... My apologies to Thunderclap...

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Not your fault Filmy, I yanked the thread off course several days ago and we've been meandering around the whole -- what makes a sale -- what makes the business tick ever since.

And I completely agree with your take on this.

I think where this get's complex is that indies often use the words -- concept, story and script to mean roughly the same thing.

This is significant when it comes to talking to sales agents (UK term for Producer's Rep).

Sales Agents are primarily interested in genre and concept -- or "How do we pitch this to the public"

So purely from a sales point of view it's possible to survive in the industry by getting that part right, even if your story and script are merely OK.

But, like you, I agree that the best foundation for a stella career in the industry and also the way to make great films is to go a step further and work very, very hard at creating well structured stories and compelling scripts.

The one thing that I think it's important to say is that doing that is an incredibly hard task.

The actual technical side of film making isn't that complicated -- pretty much anyone can do it.

The actual writing is a whole other order of complexity and requires incredible levels of knowledge about a massive variety of topics -- that range far beyond the mechanics of screenpaly structure.

The essence of this is the ability to understand the mysteries and struggles of human existence -- the interplay of human strength and fraility. Is in not an easy task.

I totally understand...

I was just telling someone the other day... I am certain my quest for telling the best story possible will never end.

Having said that...

I think just about any filmmaker here on IndieTalk... With just a little committment to learning how to tell a story could easily SOAR past the majority of other filmmakers trying to get their foot in the door.

Telling the perfect story will take a lifetime... However, simply learning even just a few BASIC storytelling techiques will blast you and your work ahead of the myriad of other people trying to make a financially successful film.

If you learn nothing else... Learn some kind of structure.

I'm a little biased because I have my own structure that I am constantly honing...

But giving your story some kind of structure will be a massive leap forward into drawing us, the audience, into your story.

If you do NOTHING ELSE when it comes to your story, at an absolute minimum, give it some kind of structure.

filmy

I agree completely about story. Luckily, "The Rapture" has a doozy. Johnny will let that cat out of the bag when he's ready, but we've been in pre-prod. on this for a YEAR. Story mattered a lot, and I think I can speak for the producers on this film that we are very happy with the screenplay for this film.

I know, we're still off topic, but I just wanted to add to what Filmy said.

a lot of good discussion, btw Christine, I dont think our script is that good, it's an OK script for the purpose of getting it out and getting it done and make it profitable, if it fails it's not because of the script but the production process and because we didn't know our market genre well. But alas,I do hope we just break even I'll be happy.

In regards to the first post, here's something I just thought of, combining the comments from everyone:

Since you are going to festival routes and to dvd-distribution, then you can:
- prepare a good one sheet with the 'key word' that can sell your movie
- prepre a nicely designed one sheet that brings an interest to your story
- prepare a 20 words synopsis? would that be right Clive/Filmy?
- and make sure your movie has a good story
- get a teaser/trailer that 'jumps' out to them to say "show me more!"

Now, the key here is not about making a generic design or generic trailer, make a targeted market design/trailer that fits on each, for example, let say you are gong to dvd-distributor A, and they are more into horros, perhaps, just perhaps, you might be able to aim/prepare your package to that perspective... (obviously if their stuff isn't what you do, move on).

Same with Festivals... Now, I also think going yourself to film market is really a great learning experience, and you get to learn about what they are looking for and how you can sell it to them. THink of it like a big room of car salesman trying to sel YOU their film, and you are the buyer, so now, how can you weed throught them?

Do some background research about each company you want to appraoch, learning as much as you were going to be interviewed by them as to work for them, but use that research to learn about their strength and weaknesses and utlize that at your advantage... etc.


This might open your door without having an agent. And then see how/what else needed to be done to 'sell' your film to them.

Most importantly, look at your film as a product, and think of them as the buyer and the question to ask yourself when dealing with them is "how can my product benefit them?"

No matter the answer is, you got 10 seconds to get it right.

Just a thought.

I think the prep for putting your film in front of a sales agent is about seeing it as a product and applying good business/sale technique.

Which is -- Know enough about the person you're selling to to understand what their needs are and then present your product in a way that fills those needs.

Oh, and the one thing that nobody has mentioned -- do all this preparation BEFORE you make your film.

So when you go into pre-production you should already know which distributors would be interested in your film/product and what they as individuals are likely to ask of you.

But giving your story some kind of structure will be a massive leap forward into drawing us, the audience, into your story.

If you do NOTHING ELSE when it comes to your story, at an absolute minimum, give it some kind of structure.

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This is absolutely true and essentially the reason my first feature failed in the market place -- in basic terms -- I had a good story to tell, but at that point I didn't know HOW to tell it.

I think if my expereince proves anything it's that structure in more important than the quality of the dialogue or even the production values -- because I got both of those at a pretty high quality.

I think a film with a good solid structure which holds together an interesting concept will float in the market place even if perhaps the dialogue or performances aren't 100%.

However, saying that I think there is a danger in the "It'll be good enough to sell" mentality, it takes the edge off what you're producing.