Virtual reality in movies?

The New York Times has an article on how the high-tech world wants to use virtual reality to make movies. As I understand it, a camera will capture a 360-degree image, so the viewer will get an all-round view of what is going on.

I don't think this would be a game changer, because many would not want to wear headsets. Of course, if they could watch a 360 degree movie without the headsets, that may be different.

What I'm waiting for is holography - true holography - and, if it can be done with 360 degrees, so much the better. :)
 
There are some practical challenges: normally all the crap on set is kept out sight of the camera.
Where does all that go when filming 360 degrees?
I guess it will work for animation, but part of the art of filmmaking is showing people the things in a certain order. Imagine looking in the wrong direction and missing the action... :P

The high-tech world wants a market for their stuff. But not all of them understand the way movies work.
It would call for a whole new approach to moviemaking and storytelling to make this work.
 
I could see this being cool for archival of events.. JFK's moon speech, for example.. might be cool to step into VR and roam around during that speech. For a regular movie-going experience.. no. Movies are just as much about what's not shown as they are about what's shown... and it'd be awfully difficult to direct the eye and coerce emotion if you loose control over what's the important bit to look at at any given moment.

I don't like it.. I think it's a stupid idea. The best VR in movies was, and should remain, this:

arguing-90s-style.jpg

or _maybe_ the matrix
 
I think it will become part of crowd surveillance.

Or for a concert with a non traditional stage it can be cool to look around :)
 
To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail...

I'm sure there will be long-term viable applications for this technology; I don't think filmmaking will be one of them. Filmmaking, like any form of storytelling, is as much about what you leave out as it is about what you include.
 
As others have said.. this would present a ton of problems for film making. What about editing? wouldn't that be extremely disconcerting.. How would you do action sequences? Multiple people fighting at the same time without any cuts.. yeeeah
 
I recently worked on a VR film project. The company, director, actors, etc were all very excited. We were only doing it with 180 degrees of motion. "We're going into a new era of filmmaking" etc type talk.

Bullshit.

I can say from personal experience that, whilst the experience of being able to move about in a scene is cool, it's completely different from filmmaking. Because the tech is new, everything looks pretty crap. But for live action, I can't see how it won't - people will have to become very good at lighting with practical lights - and I just don't see that working as well as traditional lighting. Set design becomes a very interesting and far more imporant element - which is cool. Sound design will be very difficult/have a bunch of new challenges, as sounds will have to be "placed" in certain locations to sound different when you're looking a certain direction way.

But it's not where filmmaking is headed. It's completely different to filmmaking. Filmmaking is the art of forced perspective, and VR takes that away. It's like trying to argue that video games would replace film, or that video did indeed kill the radio star. It doesn't work - they're simply different art forms.

I see VR "films" falling somewhere in between traditional film and games - closer to games. What the creator of the certain piece of tech we were working with said was that "we want to create experiences" - and I think that's hitting the nail on the head. VR filmmaking won't be so much about narrative, but it will be about experiences. Concert films would be improved by VR I think. "Events" in general would be improved by VR. It could be useful for a google maps type thing. But I see it's use in traditional storytelling being limited (though as I said, it could be good for gaming).

There are currently things like a few tacky VR videos of people dancing, or being on a roller-coaster. These are cool, but seem reminiscent of the early days of film where someone would stick a camera down and film a train for 4 minutes. But no one, once film developed into a narrative medium, would pay for that 'experience' - it'll need to have some practical use. Though I guess things like the rollecoaster could be good for tourist-y type promotions on websites..
 
Ahk, I didn't realise that. I suppose it's not a huge leap to be able to calculate the distance the "viewer" is from the source of the sound, they angle they're on, what objects are in the way (size, material) in real time and have said parameters effect the sound?
 
Ahk, I didn't realise that. I suppose it's not a huge leap to be able to calculate the distance the "viewer" is from the source of the sound, they angle they're on, what objects are in the way (size, material) in real time and have said parameters effect the sound?

I believe they do this in video games
 
It seems fairly primitive from my experience. I don't game a lot but it just seems to be a simple decrease in volume in proportion to the distance the player is from the source, in my experience. I could be wrong, of course.
 
It seems fairly primitive from my experience. I don't game a lot but it just seems to be a simple decrease in volume in proportion to the distance the player is from the source, in my experience. I could be wrong, of course.

Counter-strike came out in 2000 and players would all wear headsets so they could listen for what direction enemy footsteps were coming from. Probably primitive but that was 14 years ago, I have to imagine some game somewhere has played with sound at a more complex level.
 
Ahk, I didn't realise that. I suppose it's not a huge leap to be able to calculate the distance the "viewer" is from the source of the sound, they angle they're on, what objects are in the way (size, material) in real time and have said parameters effect the sound?

What you're suggesting is both impossible and undesirable!

Impossible: A cinema has one sound system. It obviously cannot change it's aural POV depending on which direction you are looking unless the direction you are looking is exactly the same as the direction everyone else in the cinema is looking. In other words, if you are looking in one direction and another member of the audience is looking in another direction, a cinema sound system will never be able to create both different aural POVs at the same time. The only potentially possible solution to this problem would be to make movie watching an individual experience; everyone get's their own headset/headphones unit. There are three problems with this approach: 1. You no longer need a cinema, 2. The technology to create 3D sound in headphones does not exist. There is binaural technology which has been around for quite a while and is a sort of sophisticated, enhanced stereo but there are some complex issues with the technology for which it doesn't look like there will ever be solutions and 3. The physical properties of sound waves is and has been well understood for many decades. However, the information we can disseminate from those sound waves, how we perceive sound, is still poorly understood. It appears to be a bit of a "rabbit hole" situation; the last couple of decades has seen great advances in neuroscience and psychoacoustics but that additional knowledge has provided few, if any, actual answers or rather, the answers have just tended to raise more questions. For example, even the seemingly simple question of how we perceive musical pitch is not yet known. In more practical filmmaking terms, reverb units/plugins for example, are pretty complex/sophisticated these days but compared to how we hear, they are crude approximations. When it comes to POV, the position of the source sound relative to the room/environment the reverb is trying to re-create, it is only possible currently to create a very rough approximation and even that is only possible in stereo not in 5.1 and certainly not in Dolby Atmos. Creating believable spaces and aural POVs in theatrical sound is currently achieved by critical listening, plus a combination of tools/techniques, experience and judgement. In short, we're a long way away from even understanding how hearing perception works, let alone developing the technology to fool it to the degree you are suggesting.

Undesirable: There are two related issues here: 1. Sound Design in general; as I've stated many times before and detailed in "The Principles of Sound Design" thread, sound design is not about recreating an accurate actual aural reality, it's all about audience manipulation. To manipulate an audience, certain aspects of the sound design have to be very close to actual reality but other aspects don't. In practice, the complete sound mix of every commercial film is highly unrealistic, although when heard in conjunction with the visuals, is still believable. A common example of this is what is called hyper-reality, making a sound (usually Foley) louder in the mix than it would be in reality, to draw the audience's attention to what would otherwise be an insignificant visual action. 2. Aural POV: Interestingly, aural POV is one of the areas of sound design least well understood/appreciated by no/lo budget filmmakers and is commonly completely ignored, even though it's been an integral part of commercial/professional filmmaking for over 6 decades. The boom and lav mics are to an extent fixed in position, a few inches (say 4 for a lav and 20 for a boom) in front of the actor's mouth, if the actor moves, so does the mic. But, is that position the same aural perspective or POV of our audience? Additionally, there is usually at least two and sometimes many different types of shot and angles used in each scene. If we were to change the aural perspective of the entire sound mix in line with these visual changes we would loose continuity and disorient our audience. However, many edits (within a scene) may require at least some changes in aural perspective otherwise they will no longer sound believable. For example, the aural POV of the dialogue and/or Foley may change while the atmos remains unchanged. Furthermore, there are some types of scenes/sequences where the aural POV maybe set-up by but is otherwise not directly related to the visual POV.

Advancements in film technology have always been to either improve workflow efficiency and/or to increase the artistic options of filmmakers to manipulate the audience and thereby enhance their cinematic experience. Additionally, in order to be adopted, any technical advance in one area of filmmaking cannot negatively impact the artistic options of another. VR isn't a practical theatrical technology in the foreseeable future and may never be.

G
 
I agree with you APE. If you read back, I listed this as a problem for VR "films." I think we're in agreement as to why, from an aural POV, VR films are not practical - though you've explained why with far more insight than I could ever provide.

Though I don't imagine them being consumed the way traditional cinema is. If the whole point is that you can look around and be part of the action, then it's a very individual experience. VR headsets will likely be a personal item, not really something you go "out" to use.

Regarding undesirable - I agree with what you're saying there too. But again, that's why I said I don't see them replacing cinema. Cinema is the art of manipulating an audience through a forced perspective. That includes aural perspective. Obviously the viewer being able to move about the scene removes the fixed perspective of visual composition, but it also does aurally (unless you have a mix unaffected by the viewer's position - but that would be similarly disorientating).

Again, I think we agree on why VR filmmaking is unlikely to replace more conventional cinema. That's not to say that VR "experiences" don't have a place. But that would obviously still be very difficult from an audio perspective.
 
If we were to change the aural perspective of the entire sound mix in line with these visual changes we would loose continuity and disorient our audience.

I imagine the same issue will happen with the visuals - it's one thing to have a picture in front of you suddenly change, it's a very different thing to have the entire environment you're in abruptly be replaced by a different one, or a different perspective, over and over again.

I think it will work best for experiential applications rather than storytelling. For instance, there's probably plenty of people who would like to experience what skydiving is like but aren't really up for jumping out of a plane, or would like to see what it's like to stand on top of the world but aren't about to climb everest. It certainly may be possible to add a certain level of narrative to those experiences, but it will require a very different approach than filmmaking does.
 
If all these objections make virtual reality filming impossible, then my dream of true holography may also be impossible. But I refuse to believe that.

One day ... one day ...
 
If all these objections make virtual reality filming impossible, then my dream of true holography may also be impossible. But I refuse to believe that.

One day ... one day ...


Well no, hang on there. I don't see why your dream is impossible. All everyone is saying is that it's probably no good for narrative film. But there's no reason your holography won't work for something like a holodeck. So, maybe like Dr. Bashir, you'll take holodeck excursions in which you can actually play James Bond in a holographic reality. But that's not coming till the twenty-fourth century, if I'm not mistaken.

I have wondered, however, if holograms might work for 3D films. The idea would be that the holograms would not surround you, like in VR. Instead, the holographic movie would be projected in front of you, like today's films are projected or displayed on a screen in front of you. But you'd be able to look into it. The beauty of that would be, of course, that the three dimensionality would be real, or realish, as opposed to today's simulated 3D.

Edit--PS

You know, with all this discussion lately about this, I think I'm beginning to suspect that cinema is going to stay pretty much as it for a long time, maybe for however long it (cinema) lasts.

It may already be about as perfected as it can be. It may be that things like 3D, holograms, or biological/neurological interfaces will ever only amount to gimmicks...messing with what ain't broke and very possibly is about as refined as it can be.

Sure, improve the picture quality, the visuals, the audio technology, etc. Those sorts of changes, improving the art and science of production and exhibition, may prove to be the only desirable changes we will be happy with or want.
 
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VR filming in the real world feels a bit like buying a fax machine... dead end tech.. Narrative Virtual Reality is much more practical. Tech wise we are probably 10 years from real time 3D CGI that will be as real as anything you could want, without all the messy real world problems. It of course will be experienced more like a game but thats what the current crop of consumers will be used to in the same time frame.
 
If all these objections make virtual reality filming impossible, then my dream of true holography may also be impossible.

A holographic film could present far fewer and potentially solvable problems as far as sound is concerned because the audience would all be looking in the same direction. For example, if the cinema were circular, the holographic images were projected in the centre of the cinema and the audience were seated around the images, like a sort of circular boxing match auditorium. The problem, I imagine, would be more on the visual side; what you would see would depend on where you were sitting in the auditorium. During a crucial conversation between two characters for example, all you might see during the scene is the back of one of the character's heads. Although I can't imagine a solution to this problem, if there were a solution, then the same basic principles of shooting, editing and narrative filmmaking in general should still probably be applicable.

G
 
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