withoutabox - lets hear your experience?

At first glance this service seems terrific, they will digitally do mostly everything you need to get your movie to festivals. AND, festivals seem to love it (some going so far as to prefer ONLY wab submissions) because it uncomplicates their screening and press lives.

So, before I start really using this service, I was wondering of those who have used it, what is your opinion of the service? Are there things not covered by wab I should know about? Has wab simplified your life as a filmmaker and how so?

Thanks in advance!
 
I'm over it personally. I've had films do very well on the festival circuit, I've had films do almost nothing. When I have a feature I'm trying to get distributed I'll be back, but the process of making festival shorts in the rear view at this point. It's largely a racket and full of the kind of bad treatment you're talking about.
 
True. But i think maybe WAB needs to ensure that any festival that uses them to provide them with entries must insist on good correspondance. It's only polite at the end of the day, and when you spend your £30 (or whatever the cost of entry is), you want atleast something back at the end of the day... even if it is just a thanks but you weren't successful this time and here is the reason why... etc.

I enter festivals that charge nothing to enter, and get better responses from those that charge a small fortune...

I agree, wholeheartedly. There should be some form of accountability, at the very least maybe a rating system.

I got an actual rejection-letter, once. Not a generic mass-email, but a letter. Somebody took the time to write my name on an envelope, and sign the letter. Though it was a rejection, it actually put a smile on my face, and gave me a positive impression of that specific festival. I will submit to them again in the future.
 
I have just started using this site and my advice is to avoid it like the plague.

Let's start with the so-called Discount Bundles. In a lot of words it says that after A HUNDRED entries you will save A DOLLAR EACH. I supposed if you are going to enter your project into everything you see that may be useful but otherwise the possible 25-100 dollar savings are hardly worth giving these people a free cash advance.

As an accountant, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth right off the bat. Shame on you, IMDB, for taking advantage of aspiring filmmakers who have more dreams than bookkeeping sense. Granted the buyer should beware but some brands should be able to be trusted. I am certainly not saying that all artists are easily duped so please don't jump on my case like it is, but the left brain/right brain strengths cannot be denied and while to my husband this sounded like a bonanza to me it sounds like I loan them money that they credit toward something they don't have to pay and that is not worth it to my bottom line if there aren't enough viable festivals to enter. We are aiming for AFI & Sundance, not Bob's Backyard BBQ & Film Festival! (I made that up so if there is one by that name, I'M SORRY, it isn't personal.)

Moving on to site functionality.... It has been down for over 12 hours and we are approaching a deadline that we can only make through the WAB site (side note, the inability to do this through another venue breaches on being a monopoly and really irks me. Either accept late entries or do not but don't use a crappy capitalistic site as the ONLY place to submit them.)

Since yesterday, there have been approximately SIX different error messages up so they are working on the wording of the error message as we speak. PHEW, I feel so much better knowing they can write a good error message, which, by the way, blames everything on severe weather wherever they host their server. How twenty first century, can you say BACK UP SERVER?!?! Interestingly, they didn’t admit this for the first six hours so for a while it said it was down for system maintenance. Shortly after I emailed to ask how long system maintenance normally takes it was changed to severe weather as follows :

“Withoutabox is currently unavailable

Withoutabox is currently offline due to weather-related power outages. We are working to restore functionality as soon as possible. Thank you for your patience.

Sincerely,
Team Withoutabox”

Where is your server exactly?

So there is no number to call, of course, they are above customer service calls. There is an email address and hours after you write to them you may get a form reply saying something like "In the event that you miss a deadline, please get back in touch with us when the site is back up, to obtain a deadline waiver. We cannot issue waivers until the site is up." Not that they can tell you WHEN that will be so I get to spend my Saturday sitting here hitting refresh until this ridiculous travesty of greed is up and running so I can find out about this waiver that I shouldn’t have to do to begin with

Why do I already have this dreadful feeling that they are going to say something like
I have to PROVE to them that their site was down?
 
I suggest that you find the email address for the relevant festival, and email (or call ) about the problem.

They might be willing to give you an extra day or 2.

I use WAB regularly with very minimal problems. But it's best not to wait until the last minute, and not just because of this....you're catching the judges when they may well have pencilled in most of their schedule already.

Good luck!
 
I suscribed to this service and it's kind of weird, but I never found a festival that would "fit" into the kind of films that I make.

I'm more into video art / experimental cinema and I have participated in many festivals this year. Never found one on withoutabox. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, I don't know.
 
I used withoutabox and I found it to be pretty straight forward without complications. Saves you a lot of time, and since you can often submit online screeners, it saves postage costs.

My film, the Many Faces of Occupy Wall Street, was screened at an Iranian film festival that I submitted to through Withoutabox. I've heard back from one of the other festivals, and the others don't make decisions until later this year or early next year.
 
I have done two projects with WAB and for the second one it has been so helpful. Since I am doing a lot of the marketing and publicity myself, it keeps it easy enough to where I can instantly submit via the online screener so I can spend my free time creating "buzz" around the film. The online screener saves so much money on DVD duplicating and shipping.
 
Here's what I have gathered from the above:

Pluses:
You'd better be in it if you also want to be included in IMDB easily
You give all the details once and submit it from there with a click of a mouse
You may get the deadline slightly extended in some circumstances

Minuses:
Filling the details are tricky to complete
Not all festivals are in it because of high charges for the festival owners
You may also maybe charged after the first free year registration (Please correct this if wrong)
More submissions will go through WAB and you are smaller fish than you individually apply to selective fests of your suitable target audience
Uploading a large file to their site may take sometime which may also mean if their server cannot handle the downloaders from the fests with enough speed and without interruptions (if they cannot guarantee the submissions and or if their servers are not up and running.)

In other words, you may falsely believe you submitted your film through WAB, on the other hand, if their servers are down when the fests want to download a copy and are failed.

Like, you may not be at fault and if WAB is at fault, you face the music yourself only and get punished by not being in it.

Any other evaluation points I have missed or I misinterpreted the reality in any way please

Any other recent thoughts according to your recent first hand experiences please?
 
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I have a few thoughts I'd like to add.

I've got four short films listed on IMDb, only one of them was entered into festivals via WAB. So technically you can put shorts their, you just need to provide a link to the film or evidence that its in a festival.

On a bad note for WAB, Tropfest, which is a pretty big festival in Australia has this year removed WAB completely as they were disappointed in the service. They have now launched their own submissions site.
 
I have just started using this site and my advice is to avoid it like the plague.

Let's start with the so-called Discount Bundles. In a lot of words it says that after A HUNDRED entries you will save A DOLLAR EACH. I supposed if you are going to enter your project into everything you see that may be useful but otherwise the possible 25-100 dollar savings are hardly worth giving these people a free cash advance.

As an accountant, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth right off the bat. Shame on you, IMDB, for taking advantage of aspiring filmmakers who have more dreams than bookkeeping sense. Granted the buyer should beware but some brands should be able to be trusted. I am certainly not saying that all artists are easily duped so please don't jump on my case like it is, but the left brain/right brain strengths cannot be denied and while to my husband this sounded like a bonanza to me it sounds like I loan them money that they credit toward something they don't have to pay and that is not worth it to my bottom line if there aren't enough viable festivals to enter. We are aiming for AFI & Sundance, not Bob's Backyard BBQ & Film Festival! (I made that up so if there is one by that name, I'M SORRY, it isn't personal.)

Moving on to site functionality.... It has been down for over 12 hours and we are approaching a deadline that we can only make through the WAB site (side note, the inability to do this through another venue breaches on being a monopoly and really irks me. Either accept late entries or do not but don't use a crappy capitalistic site as the ONLY place to submit them.)

Since yesterday, there have been approximately SIX different error messages up so they are working on the wording of the error message as we speak. PHEW, I feel so much better knowing they can write a good error message, which, by the way, blames everything on severe weather wherever they host their server. How twenty first century, can you say BACK UP SERVER?!?! Interestingly, they didn’t admit this for the first six hours so for a while it said it was down for system maintenance. Shortly after I emailed to ask how long system maintenance normally takes it was changed to severe weather as follows :

“Withoutabox is currently unavailable

Withoutabox is currently offline due to weather-related power outages. We are working to restore functionality as soon as possible. Thank you for your patience.

Sincerely,
Team Withoutabox”

Where is your server exactly?

So there is no number to call, of course, they are above customer service calls. There is an email address and hours after you write to them you may get a form reply saying something like "In the event that you miss a deadline, please get back in touch with us when the site is back up, to obtain a deadline waiver. We cannot issue waivers until the site is up." Not that they can tell you WHEN that will be so I get to spend my Saturday sitting here hitting refresh until this ridiculous travesty of greed is up and running so I can find out about this waiver that I shouldn’t have to do to begin with

Why do I already have this dreadful feeling that they are going to say something like
I have to PROVE to them that their site was down?

This is yet another example of how the Amazon conglomerate has taken over everything. In the late 19th century we fought against the robber barons but now we seem to welcome them with open arms. WAB is a subsidiary of imdb which is owned by amazon. None of these companies give a crap about customer service, they seem to pride themselves on their lack of phone numbers and automated response to email. There is no way to figure out how to contact WAB on their website. You have to google it just to get to a form entry. I bought the mega pack discount for $400. Big mistake! You would think you are prepaying for entries, but no! you have just bought $5 discounts per film for... 100 films! if you don't do that many submissions you lose money. Who does that many submissions? They are leaches taking advantage of starving film makers. Fist pump Jeff Bezos! what a dick. When I finally found their complete post site, what do I get? Nothing! No response to email! I guess i will just have to suck up those four hundred dollars.
 
I've had films in about 16 festivals all but two of which (I was invited to two by the programmer) I submitted to through WAB.

That's interesting. I've only submitted to a few through WAB and heard nothing. However, I've had stuff screened in a couple of fests although one of them was where I knew the festival director.

However, I've only just reached the stage where my short has been good enough for a fest so will see what happens with this.
 
I was going to start a new thread...

http://withoutaboxsucks.com/

FAW_RED1.png


then remembered seeing this one a while ago.

From the website:

How Withoutabox Hurts Film Festivals
Withoutabox is a monopoly that is causing serious harm to independent film using unfair and anti-competitive business practices to drive up entry fees making it harder than ever for film festivals to survive.

Here is the ugly truth you may not know about Withoutbox. This information is taken directly from their website or information they email to festivals.

GREEDY COMMISSIONS

They demand nearly 20% of the entry fees that they get from the festivals! This causes festivals to dramatically raise their prices to make up for this incredibly greedy commission. Even if your festival attracts people, you may not have all your operations costs covered, and many festivals have gone bankrupt after using Withoutabox.

EXCESSIVE FEES

They charge a mandatory set-up fee just for a festival to be listed on the site, ranging anywhere from $500 to $2000. Again, this causes festivals to jack up their entry fees to compensate for these costs.

FORCED MARKETING PACKAGES

They force festivals to buy a “Marketing Package”, the cheapest of which starts at $750 and goes all the way up to $3,500 per month. Most festivals can barely survive as it is without having to be forced to buy so called “marketing packages.” The majority of these “marketing packages” are basically are just a very spammy email that they send out to an aging database of filmmakers.

PROFITING FROM NON-PROFITS

For non-profit festivals that do not have entry fees, Withoutabox charges $2000 to be listed on their site. From non-profits!

POACHING ORGANIC TRAFFIC

They force festivals to place a link on the festivals’ website as prominently as the festivals’ own Call For Entries link so that they can poach submissions from organic traffic that originates outside of Withoutabox. Why should festivals be forced to redirect organic traffic to Withoutabox and then pay 20% of those entry fees to them?

From their rules: “A link to the Withoutabox submission form must be placed prominently on partner websites, call for entries materials, and any related email announcements. Placement of wabLINKs on partner websites must be as prominent or more prominent than any in-house submission method options”

MONOPOLISTIC CONTROL

Withoutabox stifles competition and severely limits the options of filmmakers by requiring complete exclusivity and monopolistic control. If you dare use another third party submission processor other than Withoutabox, they will send you a letter demanding that you immediately cease using any competitor or you will be kicked off their site.

“Withoutabox partnerships are exclusive so no other third-party submission sites may be utilized concurrently.”

This drastically restricts competition and perpetuates a monopoly where festivals are forced to charge higher and higher entry fees to make up for these severely encumbering rules.

UNSUSTAINABLE FOR MOST

By the time festivals pay all the mandatory fees and the nearly 20% commission, it is very possible that Withoutabox will have made more money than the festivals who work tirelessly to promote and foster independent film.

SHADY “DISCOUNTS”

Withoutabox forces festivals to give mandatory “discounts” to filmmakers that pay Withoutabox membership fees. This causes festivals to raise their entry fees to compensate, which is passed on directly to the filmmakers. They then require filmmakers to pay costly membership fees directly to them in order to have access to these so called “discounts.” The worse part is that if the filmmaker does not pay for the discount then Withoutabox just keeps the so called discount anyway. Some say this is tantamount to fraud.

HOARDING YOUR MONEY

Withoutabox holds the festivals entry fees they receive for up to 45 days so they can earn interest on the fees before paying festivals their share.

RESTRICTING YOUR OPTIONS

Withoutabox does not allow festivals to offer entry fee coupons or discounts to filmmakers that might undercut the prices offered on Withoutabox.

FORCE FILMMAKERS TO LICENSE RIGHTS

Buried in their terms of Service, Withoutabox makes outrageous claims on the intellectual property rights of entrants. This forces festival organizers have to deal with the fallout of such hidden consequences of using Withoutabox.

From their Terms of Service: “You grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, and fully sublicensable license right to use, copy, reproduce, transmit, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, and display any information, data, Work, or any other information associated with your Work (collectively the “Submitted Materials”) you submit to us via the Services in any media or format.”

HORRIBLE CUSTOMER SERVICE

They have a hostile and unresponsive customer service model. In fact, Withoutabox has one of the worst reputations of bad customer service you are ever likely to find. Try calling them. Oh, that’s right. They don’t list a customer service phone number publicly and they can take over a week to reply to a single email. Basically, their approach toward customer service reflects the contempt with which they treat their festivals and filmmakers.

USELESS OUTSIDE OF THIER MONOPOLY

There is no real benefit with Withoutabox other than the power of their monopoly. They don’t offer impressive technological solutions in their software, they don’t give any personal service festivals, and they don’t much care.

TERRIBLE USER EXPERIENCE

Their site is miserably slow and horribly engineered. Using their site is an exercise of endurance. The only reason a site this terrible could exist in 2014 is because they have a monopoly, otherwise they would have long since been rendered obsolete.

OBFUSCATED DOCUMENTATION

Did you notice that your festival “statement” doesn’t show how much money Withoutabox has made from your event?

INEQUITABLE BUSINESS PRACTICES

They charge some of the more prominent festivals smaller commissions and make up for this by sticking it to the smaller festivals by charging the little guys nearly 20%. Where is the fairness in that?

Without competition, Withoutabox has little incentive to improve, or really to try at all. Regardless of the growing frustrations and complaints, they can choose to ignore every voice in the indie film festival world without consequence. And why wouldn’t they? They have created a complete monopoly; they have virtual complete control of the indie festival scene due to their business structure; and they have years of accepted operational intimidation. They are in a position to offer little and take everything. Most importantly, they have stockholders who they are beholden to by law, and that gives them an extremely focused goal: to act like a greedy, blind machine vacuuming up cash for their corporate overlords.

JOIN THE FIGHT

Interested in joining our alliance and having your festival listed in our directory of Festivals? Email us and we’ll add your logo and link to the site so that filmmakers supportive of our cause will know the good festivals out there fighting to save independent film.

Our community is growing by the day. Join us!
 
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Idk, this sounds like your standard capitalism to me. And I don't necessarily mean that as a bad thing.

If you want to be listed with withoutabox then you have to play by their rules. They know that most filmmakers use them as a one-stop-shop for submitting to festivals so if you are a festival, before you start attacking them for charging large fees, it's only fair to compare it to the cost of achieving the same marketing/exposure on your own.
 
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