four-walling on % basis

aceinc1

aceinc1

Four-walling US and UK

Hi all,

I want to four-wall my movies in US (opening with LA and NY) @ 88 prints. Would they negotiate for 60 (in my favor) -40 commission basis where in I’ll pay for prints and poster art, they’ll give their cinema hall and their staff?

I also want to four-wall my movies in UK @ the same 88 prints. Would they negotiate for 60 (in my favor) -40 commission basis where in I’ll pay for prints and poster art, they’ll give their cinema hall and their staff?

Regards and thanks in advance,
Ace.Inc1
 
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You can ask for that deal. But most likely the answer will be no.

Theaters never pay for prints or posters so your offer to provide
prints and posters isn't a good one. "Four walling" means you,
the producer of the movie, pay for all the theaters costs and take
100% of the box office - they take 100% of concessions.
Remember you must also pay for all advertising.

Of course if you have a movie a theater owner thinks will draw a
larger audience than any other movie in release, you might have
the clout to make that deal. So you should at the very least ask.
 
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aceinc1 said:
can I pay them deferred, that is their fee out of the money generated from the theatrical run?
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Incredibly unlikely. If your movie has a name star, if you have a decent P&A (Print and Advertising) Budget, you might be able to get that, but even then the theaters have no motivation to take that deal.

Four walling, as already mentioned, is about the filmmaker/producer renting the theater for a flat rate, and then taking all the box office. A movie theater has a contract with the distributors to book and play regular movies a certain number of times a day (IE, Batman on 2 screens, 5 times a day). In order to play your movie, they either have to cancel that contract and play your movie 5 times a day on one of their screens, which has little to no chance of bringing in as many people as a Batman (or any Hollywood movie), and they will not sell as much popcorn, candy, and drinks, which is where ALL of their (movie theater) profit comes from.

If you have a significant amount of money to spend on advertising, TV spots or print advertising with a poster, plus posters for their lobby, etc. then they might consider a different deal because then you are "spending money to make money" in terms of advertising your screenings.

Unfortunately, it is the Movie "Business", and they are in business to make money. It's a safer bet to go with the big movies with name stars than to gamble on low budget movies with no name stars and no money to advertise the screening at their theater. I'm not happy about it, but that is the way it is.


So the best way is to rent the theater outright, screen your movie and do the best you can. Advertising is key.

I wrote an article about exactly this topic in an issue of MOVIEMAKER MAGAZINE.
MM83-200px.jpg

That issue.
 
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aceinc1 said:
can I pay them deferred, that is their fee out of the money generated from the theatrical run?
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No. Not from the money generated from the theatrical run.
What if you don't make enough money from the theatrical
run. Do you think the theater owner wants to take a
financial risk on your film?

Again, you can ask. If you find a theatre owner willing to take
that kind of risk - that you may not be able to pay if your
movie doesn't make enough money, then you can make that
deal.

But that isn't "four walling".
 
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I have shot my film on DV,

I reverse-telecine is $12k.
per print for 88 prints is $88k in india. $88k
shipping prints to LA and NY from India @ $5k
newspaper ads in LA $20K
newspaper ads in NY $20K
return shipping of prints to a base in LA and psoters art $5k

total budget $150k

does it look acceptable?
 
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20k for advertising in those two large cities is very, very low.
If this number is for one week it's fine. But you should
advertise for two to three weeks before the movie plays, increase
the advertising the week the film opens, keep it high for it's
first week and then slow down after it's second week. If it's
getting an audience you'll need to increase advertising again
in it's final few weeks.

I don't have any actual experience promoting and marketing
a movie, but I'm thinking you're looking at $120,000 for five
weeks (that's a two week run) in each city.

But if that's all you can afford it will have to do.
 
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what is the fee cinema halls usually charge to do four-walling per cinema hall?

should I get an agent to represent me to sell the TV and DVD rights when I'm going through the theatrical run?

regards,
Ace.Inc1
 
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aceinc1 said:
what is the fee cinema halls usually charge to do four-walling per cinema hall?

should I get an agent to represent me to sell the TV and DVD rights when I'm going through the theatrical run?

regards,
Ace.Inc1
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It varies city to city, theater to theater. In NYC, it will be at least $800-$1,200 per showing.

Other cities it will be around $200 per showing.

You have to do due diligence and ask them.


As for a sales agent, only you can answer that. They can sell TV and DVD rights for you and probably have the connections already, but they will gouge you for expenses and percentages.
 
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I agree with sonnyboo except for his use of the word “gouge”. A
sales rep, a producers rep, or a distribution rep charges for the
information, skills, experience and research they have done. and
they charge based on how well they perform their task.

I’m not saying there are no reps out there who will “gouge”
filmmakers. Of course there are. But a legit representative will
charge a fee and a percentage. I see that as no difference than
the lawyer I use or even the writer I use. I don’t see them as
gouging me for expenses and percentages, I see it as paying the
writer for their skill and talent and offering percentages because
if their script helps me make a movie that makes a lot of money,
they deserve a piece of the action.

If aceinc cannot do the research himself or doesn’t have the
connections or doesn’t have the means and time to do the research
it seems reasonable to hire a representative to do all that. A
person with a computer and a phone can get quotes from theaters
all over the US and will gouge much less than an experienced, well
connected representative. That seems to me like a reasonable
expectation when bringing on any skilled, experienced, well
connected person to help the movie.

aceinc1 said:
should I get an agent to represent me to sell the TV and DVD rights when I'm going through the theatrical run?
Click to expand...
A representative with connections will charge you to sell the TV and
DVD rights. If that is an expense you can take on, then hiring one is
an excellent idea.
 
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aceinc1 said:
does the agent charge % of the sales or upfront fee?
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I know there is a language gap, so I will try to be as clear as I can.
An "agent" is someone who works on behalf of a client and receives
only a percentage. You do not need an agent nor will a talent or
literary agent represent you or your finished film. Often called "sales
agents" a producers representative or sales representative is what
you need. They are not, technically, "agents", they are a business
representative hired to get sales for your finished film. The do not do
the work needed to four wall a movie.

So you will need to hire - at an upfront fee - a sales representative
to shop your finished movie to distributors. Sometimes a sales
representative will so believe in a finished movie they will work for
percentage only, just like an agent.
 
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sir, a bit of communication gap is created

directorik said:
I know there is a language gap, so I will try to be as clear as I can.
An "agent" is someone who works on behalf of a client and receives
only a percentage. You do not need an agent nor will a talent or
literary agent represent you or your finished film. Often called "sales
agents" a producers representative or sales representative is what
you need. They are not, technically, "agents", they are a business
representative hired to get sales for your finished film. The do not do
the work needed to four wall a movie.

So you will need to hire - at an upfront fee - a sales representative
to shop your finished movie to distributors. Sometimes a sales
representative will so believe in a finished movie they will work for
percentage only, just like an agent.
Click to expand...

it was not the language problem, but I was of the notion that literary/talent agents would be of some help to sell the DVD and TV rights but I had figured out that you were mentioning sales agents so I asked what would be their %. anyway, another reason for doing so is Indians citizens are allowed a US$10k limit of purchase in a year. so I wanted to know if he (sales agent) would agree for a % then how much would that be.

I have to keep that US$ purchase limit in my mind.

regards,
Ace.Inc1
 
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aceinc1 said:
I was of the notion that literary/talent agents would be of some help to sell the DVD and TV rights
Click to expand...
A common misunderstanding. That is why I tried to make
the difference more clear.
aceinc1 said:
another reason for doing so is Indians citizens are allowed a US$10k limit of purchase in a year. so I wanted to know if he (sales agent) would agree for a % then how much would that be.
Click to expand...
That would be a question for the sales agent. I don't believe
they are regulated as talent/literary agents are so the
percentage will depend on many different factors.
 
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