Psychologist of a Psychologist

Inarius · Apr 14, 2015

I have an idea for a short script.

It's about a depressed guy with an unrequited love, who goes to a psychologist and finds her trying to commit a suicide. He saves her from jumping out of the window of her office, plans to go another psychologist, a sane one, but realizes she might repeat her attempt to commit a suicide. From that moment he learns that the psychologist's problem is similar to his, but much more serious and extreme. He talks her out of the suicide idea, convinces her to move on, which in turn helps him deal with his own problem. After he leaves the office, another patient enters it, sees the psychologist trying to jump out of the window and saves her. We learn it is just a trick, acted by the psychologist to help his patients deal with their problems.

What I do like about the idea, that it's 2 actors (well, 2 + a non-actor), and one location (or maybe 2 locations, the office and the waiting room).

What do you think about that?

Filman · Apr 19, 2015

An interesting thread. Better find your funny bone, Inarius, or you might have to take the thriller-route.

Inarius · Apr 19, 2015

maz said:
That's another thing - maybe it's different in Israel, but here in the UK there is enough respect for professionals such as doctors that a patient would never go barging into her office unannounced just because he would otherwise have to wait for a receptionist to arrive. As I say, it might just be a quaint British thing (although Tony Soprano does the same thing, and he's anything but quaint )

I KNOW that Ilana is only pretending to be depressed - that's why your first point about how Shlomi "solved" her depression is irrelevant.

Dark comedies work best when the darkly comic aspects exist in a real world setting. This clearly isn't a real-world setting, so it doesn't work for me as a dark comedy at all. If you're making a film set almost exclusively in a psychologist's office and you give no consideration to actual human psychology, instead just making it a setting for a gimmick, what's the point?

Well, we Israelis have less patience

Nobody would wait more than 5 minutes unless there is a receptionist that tells them to.

Speaking of actual psychology... When someone with a problem helps another person with a similar problem, he also helps himself (at least partially). It is a matter of identification.

As for the setting, I want to show an absurd situation, completely detached from the real world, which, however, delivers a point, or a lesson to us, humans. How do you think I can make it work if that's what I want?

FantasySciFi said:
...

What you offer makes a lot of sense.
The guy shouldn't face a grown-up life problem of the psychologist, but rather an easy and absurd problem he CAN solve. On the one hand, it's logically correct, and funny. On the other hand, it doesn't seem enough of a shock for the protagonist.

Filman said:
An interesting thread. Better find your funny bone, Inarius, or you might have to take the thriller-route.

Is the thriller-route that bad?

maz · Apr 19, 2015

Inarius said:
Well, we Israelis have less patience Nobody would wait more than 5 minutes unless there is a receptionist that tells them to.

Really? I'd hate to be a professional there then. And yet Shlomi didn't even wait five minutes.

Speaking of actual psychology... When someone with a problem helps another person with a similar problem, he also helps himself (at least partially). It is a matter of identification.

That's not actual psychology, that's cod psychology. Which is fine, up to a point, but that's not what I had an issue with - it's more the way you have two characters reacting to events in totally unrealistic ways. There is no sense of actual psychology because the character don't read like actual people.

As for the setting, I want to show an absurd situation, completely detached from the real world, which, however, delivers a point, or a lesson to us, humans. How do you think I can make it work if that's what I want?

The setting is far from the issue - you could set a movie like that on Mars, in a submarine or in the 6th century BC if you wanted to - as long as the characters act in realistic ways. Yours don't, nor does the script deliver a point or lesson. At all.

Inarius · Apr 20, 2015

I think I know what I'll do. I won't turn the psychologist's problem less heavy, because I want the protagonist shocked. But I will try to deliver her heavy problem in a funny way.

About realism, I'd be glad to have some examples, because I want to make Ilana's character surprising, not predictable. About Shlomi, he sometimes asks weird questions, just to earn some time, because he waits for a help to arrive.

Maz, as for barging into the office, I can show more of Shlomi. He enters the outer office, surprises that there is no receptionist, baffled that the clinic is so quiet, no people around. Then he moves to the psychologist's office, surprises that the door is half open, as if somebody awaits him. It will take like 20-30 seconds on screen, but maybe it's worth it. What do you think of that?

Inarius · Apr 20, 2015

Okay, here's the second draft. About the genre, I've got mixed feedbacks, quite the opposite from each other. Sure the concept is humorous. The dilemma is whether it's a comedy or a dark comedy. Should it be funny, that the audience will laugh all the time, or should it be dark, that the funny thing is the punch line, while the entire story is serious.

So I decided to start as a comedy - a hysteric teenager versus a cynical and depressed psychologist, who complains about his problems with girls. But then the protagonist comes to the midpoint of the story, when Ilana climbs down and gives him a chance to tell his problem, where the cigarette serves as the deadline.

From that point, things progressively change. She tells her problems, which shocks Shlomi more and more. It stops being that funny, becomes serious. Especially when the receptionist returns with the cop - she wants to jump again. Shlomi learns that pep talks are useless - he must show a personal example. It turns more serious, until the conflict is solved.

It is only when Shlomi leaves, we learn the psychologist used a "one-appointment-cure". This is where it reminds us (the audience), that it's still a comedy (even if dark).

What do you think of that experiment? What do you think about the story in general.
Critique please

Thanks

On the Ledge - Draft 2

maz · Apr 21, 2015

It's a little better, but still highly offensive; the idea that people with emotional problems can be "fixed" without a therapist taking any time to diagnose or understand them, and instead just by a one-size-fits-all meaningless gimmick. Low self-esteem and gender dysphoria solved by the same cheap trick. Very offensive.

The dialogue is also unrealistic. On seeing someone attempting suicide, only a non-human would consider his own problems worthy of mention. Even the "he's a stupid teenager" excuse doesn't wash here. No teenager is quite that stupid, unless he's actually a psychopath, incapable of empathy. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

Also, why does the 'cop' cuff Ilana? I've just looked it up, and attempted suicide hasn't been illegal in Israel since 1966.

And the suggestion that the clinic is famous, but nobody actually knows what to expect before they get there. Weird.

Inarius · Apr 22, 2015

maz said:
It's a little better, but still highly offensive; the idea that people with emotional problems can be "fixed" without a therapist taking any time to diagnose or understand them, and instead just by a one-size-fits-all meaningless gimmick. Low self-esteem and gender dysphoria solved by the same cheap trick. Very offensive.

The dialogue is also unrealistic. On seeing someone attempting suicide, only a non-human would consider his own problems worthy of mention. Even the "he's a stupid teenager" excuse doesn't wash here. No teenager is quite that stupid, unless he's actually a psychopath, incapable of empathy. That doesn't seem to be the case here.

Also, why does the 'cop' cuff Ilana? I've just looked it up, and attempted suicide hasn't been illegal in Israel since 1966.

And the suggestion that the clinic is famous, but nobody actually knows what to expect before they get there. Weird.

Thanks for the notes.
The idea of the last draft, is that they are a team of frauds, who hunt for Nobel Prize. Even if she is a real psychologist (she needs a legal argument).

I'll change the cuffs, thank you too.

About the clinic. Think about an advertisement: "One appointment cure for all patients"
I wouldn't believe this ad. Would you? I don't think so. Then who would? Teenagers! (The second patient after Shlomi is a teen too). The patients know what to expect, just don't know how exactly. This is business with a clear target audience. They found a hole in the system, and use it

Maybe I should add Shlomi finding this advertisement on the internet, and calling to this clinic?

maz · Apr 22, 2015

Inarius said:
Thanks for the notes.
The idea of the last draft, is that they are a team of frauds, who hunt for Nobel Prize. Even if she is a real psychologist (she needs a legal argument).

I'll change the cuffs, thank you too.

About the clinic. Think about an advertisement: "One appointment cure for all patients"
I wouldn't believe this ad. Would you? I don't think so. Then who would? Teenagers! (The second patient after Shlomi is a teen too). The patients know what to expect, just don't know how exactly. This is business with a clear target audience. They found a hole in the system, and use it Maybe I should add Shlomi finding this advertisement on the internet, and calling to this clinic?

You've just raised another detail that doesn't work in the current draft. Why does he just happen to have the number of the clinic in his phone if he's never been there before or used them?

The idea about the team of frauds is an appealing one, but it isn't what happens in your story. In your script, the 'psychologist' manages to diagnose and prescribe treatment for a patient simply because he randomly blurted out "I have a problem with girls". In the end he is miraculously cured, because obviously crippling low self-esteem is a trifling problem, just like depression or gender issues, and all the damned patients need to do is pull themselves together FFS. A pep talk, a sob story and a few home truths will sort those wusses out, right? Baloney.

Again, there is little point setting a story in a psychologist's office, if you have nothing interesting to say about actual psychology.

Inarius · Apr 22, 2015

maz said:
You've just raised another detail that doesn't work in the current draft. Why does he just happen to have the number of the clinic in his phone if he's never been there before or used them?

Well, I can have him type "psychology clinics in [his town]" in google, and find and advertisement "one-meeting-cure, X dollars only. Call [a number]". Since his is not a very smart teen, and not very rich, this advert might catch his attention. What I am afraid of is the time it takes to show on the screen. The thing that attracts the audience is that he finds her on the ledge, right? The later it happens, the more chance the one who watches the film will just turn it off.

And, well, nobody who read my script noticed that, not even you, until I wrote about an advertisement on the internet. Maybe it isn't a detail that ruins the story? Maybe it isn't worth the risk?

maz said:
In your script, the 'psychologist' manages to diagnose and prescribe treatment for a patient simply because he randomly blurted out "I have a problem with girls".

He said he's a virgin, because he wants that girl to be his first time. He said that girl sees him as "childhood-friend", when he wants something more. She learns all that before she starts her "treatment".

maz said:
In the end he is miraculously cured, because obviously crippling low self-esteem is a trifling problem, just like depression or gender issues, and all the damned patients need to do is pull themselves together FFS. A pep talk, a sob story and a few home truths will sort those wusses out, right? Baloney.

You know, when I was 15, I had a crush on a girl, but she dated someone else. But without the "take my BF with me to cinema" thing. Just ignorance. I thought it's the end of the world. But after 4 month, I met another girl, and realized that being depressed is useless and stupid. Sometimes a good punch is enough. Of course there are different levels of depressions, but that's not the case.

P.S.
I understand what you mean, but bringing the actual psychology to this story is impossible, because as you said, there is no "universal" method for all problems. But I do think dropping the part that the receptionist tells her the next case, after Shlomi leaves. The psychologist doesn't have to know the case prior to the meeting, as was with Shlomi.

maz · Apr 22, 2015

Inarius said:
Well, I can have him type "psychology clinics in [his town]" in google, and find and advertisement "one-meeting-cure, X dollars only. Call [a number]". Since his is not a very smart teen, and not very rich, this advert might catch his attention. What I am afraid of is the time it takes to show on the screen. The thing that attracts the audience is that he finds her on the ledge, right? The later it happens, the more chance the one who watches the film will just turn it off.

Maybe. But then is there any need for the build up? Why not just go straight to the ledge, and tell the backstory from that point.

And, well, nobody who read my script noticed that, not even you, until I wrote about an advertisement on the internet. Maybe it isn't a detail that ruins the story? Maybe it isn't worth the risk?

I'll let you into a secret. That was the very first thing I noticed the very first time I read your first draft - having the number in his phone suggests he goes to see her regularly, which makes the rest of the story pretty much redundant. But then that turns out not to be the case. So yeah, I noticed. It's one of those 'leaning tower of implausibility' things like H44 has - having to waste more and more screen time with convoluted details to get to an unlikely scenario.

He said he's a virgin, because he wants that girl to be his first time. He said that girl sees him as "childhood-friend", when he wants something more. She learns all that before she starts her "treatment".

Well, no, as the whole 'trick' is part of the treatment, and she has started that even before he walks into the room.

You know, when I was 15, I had a crush on a girl, but she dated someone else. But without the "take my BF with me to cinema" thing. Just ignorance. I thought it's the end of the world. But after 4 month, I met another girl, and realized that being depressed is useless and stupid. Sometimes a good punch is enough. Of course there are different levels of depressions, but that's not the case.

But how does the psychologist know this? He could be seriously depressed, and no "good punch" can cure a person who is seriously depressed, much less a circus trick on a ledge.

P.S.
I understand what you mean, but bringing the actual psychology to this story is impossible, because as you said, there is no "universal" method for all problems. But I do think dropping the part that the receptionist tells her the next case, after Shlomi leaves. The psychologist doesn't have to know the case prior to the meeting, as was with Shlomi.

...or, alternatively, it's not impossible at all, but it does require some research into different psychological problems, common therapies etc.

Inarius · Apr 22, 2015

maz said:
Maybe. But then is there any need for the build up? Why not just go straight to the ledge, and tell the backstory from that point.

Good point. I'll think about that.

maz said:
I'll let you into a secret. That was the very first thing I noticed the very first time I read your first draft - having the number in his phone suggests he goes to see her regularly, which makes the rest of the story pretty much redundant. But then that turns out not to be the case. So yeah, I noticed. It's one of those 'leaning tower of implausibility' things like H44 has - having to waste more and more screen time with convoluted details to get to an unlikely scenario.

Well, then I believe the part with him searching google for psychologist clinics in the town and finding the "one-meeting-treatment" advertisement solves the problem.

maz said:
But how does the psychologist know this? He could be seriously depressed, and no "good punch" can cure a person who is seriously depressed, much less a circus trick on a ledge.

She doesn't know. She counts on her acting skills.
That's why when Shlomi climbs on the ledge and says "If you jump, I jump after you", she becomes scared - it was not planned. That's why after Shlomi leaves, she says they need to stop it. But eventually the cop and the receptionist convince her to continue.

maz said:
...or, alternatively, it's not impossible at all, but it does require some research into different psychological problems, common therapies etc.

It reminds me of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz. There were Scarecrow, Cowardly Lion and Tin Woodman. They went to the Wizard of Oz to get brains, bravery and heart. But the Wizard wasn't a wizard at all - he was a fraud. Yet when the three got their items from him, the Scarecrow became smarter, the Lion became brave, and the Tin Woodman became open to feelings or whatever. The meaning of this is that all is in our minds, it's how WE see things, right? How is that different from a fraud psychologist who helps people fight their real problems?

maz · Apr 23, 2015

Inarius said:
Well, then I believe the part with him searching google for psychologist clinics in the town and finding the "one-meeting-treatment" advertisement solves the problem.

No, the googling scene IS the problem. It's not very compelling visually. I really think you could do without this at all.

She doesn't know. She counts on her acting skills.
That's why when Shlomi climbs on the ledge and says "If you jump, I jump after you", she becomes scared - it was not planned. That's why after Shlomi leaves, she says they need to stop it. But eventually the cop and the receptionist convince her to continue.

She assumed that her 'trick' would be enough to solve the problem even before she knew what the problem was; or else why was she on the ledge even before he walked into the room?

It reminds me of the Wonderful Wizard of Oz. There were Scarecrow, Cowardly Lion and Tin Woodman. They went to the Wizard of Oz to get brains, bravery and heart. But the Wizard wasn't a wizard at all - he was a fraud. Yet when the three got their items from him, the Scarecrow became smarter, the Lion became brave, and the Tin Woodman became open to feelings or whatever. The meaning of this is that all is in our minds, it's how WE see things, right? How is that different from a fraud psychologist who helps people fight their real problems?

Interesting comparison. The difference though is that the journey is the main part of TWOO - it is the journey that convinces the three 'patients' (and the audience) that what they sought was inside them all along regardless of the tokens provided by the 'wizard'. The moral and message is: you have strengths that you might never know until you need them most.

Here, there is no journey, just a bit of awkward dialogue and a gimmick. The takeaway message from your script (and your description of it in this thread) seems to be "teenagers are stupid" or "young people are shallow" or "people with problems just need to pull themselves together".

Inarius · Apr 23, 2015

maz said:
No, the googling scene IS the problem. It's not very compelling visually. I really think you could do without this at all.

She assumed that her 'trick' would be enough to solve the problem even before she knew what the problem was; or else why was she on the ledge even before he walked into the room?

You've come to the point how I thought to write this from the beginning. The initial plan was that Shlomi visits her REGULARLY. That explains how Ilana knows his problem, and why she is on the ledge when he comes in. That also includes the next patient (which comes in after Shlomi) be known to Ilana as well, that's why she repeats the same trick to her. In other words, Ilana uses a few sessions to learn about the patient's problem, and only then, when the ordinary treatment doesn't help, she uses this radical trick.

Is that what you mean?

maz · Apr 23, 2015

Inarius said:
You've come to the point how I thought to write this from the beginning. The initial plan was that Shlomi visits her REGULARLY. That explains how Ilana knows his problem, and why she is on the ledge when he comes in. That also includes the next patient (which comes in after Shlomi) be known to Ilana as well, that's why she repeats the same trick to her. In other words, Ilana uses a few sessions to learn about the patient's problem, and only then, when the ordinary treatment doesn't help, she uses this radical trick.

Is that what you mean?

That would work better, I reckon, although that then introduces the issue of why he ends up with an appointment at 7pm (that's really late anyway, surely? Are working hours that different in Israel?) If he is a regular patient then he would more likely have a regular time.

It potentially could help with the next patient too but you would have to take it a bit further to make the point (i.e. include the first part of their talk).

Inarius · Apr 23, 2015

maz said:
That would work better, I reckon, although that then introduces the issue of why he ends up with an appointment at 7pm (that's really late anyway, surely? Are working hours that different in Israel?) If he is a regular patient then he would more likely have a regular time.

Most small clinics in Israel don't have standard working hours - they work as their boss wants them to work, so it's okay. Also, I can make him call the clinic at 6.30pm and say "I need to see Ilana, it's urgent". Many psychologists DO change their schedule if their regular patient says it's urgent. It's a part of their job.

Don't you think it raises another issue of exposition of the main character? If Ilana knows his problem, he wouldn't tell her "I have problem with girls" and "I'm virgin" and "She calls me childhood-friend". She knows it. And these are the things that explore the character to the audience. If I am to show it on the screen, the 10-min short turns into a feature... unrequited love is not a single event - it's a continuous raw of events.

I can avoid that, of course, by making Shlomi say, - "I wasn't honest with you on previous appointments...", - and then say he's a virgin, show his misery and etc. Which is logically correct. People are not always honest with psychologists. So it turns out Ilana knew about the unrequited love, but not that he's virgin who wants that girl to be his first time.

maz said:
It potentially could help with the next patient too but you would have to take it a bit further to make the point (i.e. include the first part of their talk).

I disagree... Their first talk has happened some prior to the events of the current story. Secondly, after Shlomi leaves, I can have Ilana say "Who's the next patient?", and the receptionist says "Remember the girl with gender issues?" (or another problem), on which Ilana answers, - "Ah... alright. Reset!". And finally, no audience likes to be told things they could figure out by themselves.

FantasySciFi · Apr 23, 2015

I think you're taking this in far too serious a direction. As a counselor, I can say this would violate ethical and legal boundaries. If you keep it light and comical, you can get away with this more unethical, bizarre behavior. Because most people work, the clinics I've worked in often are open until 9 pm, our last client being scheduled at 8 pm.

Keep it simple. It's a short. I wasn't going to mention it, but Maz was correct in drawing a comparison with H44's plot elaborations. Instead of going on about her miserably abusive husband, maybe change it. She's a a therapist-in-training. Her supervisor is upset with her how she's botched the last ten clients she worked with and how she's ready to fail out of her program. At the end, the "secretary" can turn out to be her supervisor who congratulates her on another successful cure. This can be a successful short if you avoid going too dark and don't overthink the plot and dialogue.

Sit down with a counseling student to learn about non-directive therapy. Or do research and learn about Carl Rogers. How she would elicit his problems, re-frame them in terms of her own 'made up life problem' and then prompt him to help her solve 'her problem'. Going intense with Ilana is counterproductive. It doesn't come across as interesting, necessary or appropriate.

If you want the ending to payoff as comedy, you need to be lighter throughout. It doesn't read as a dark comedy to me. The dialogue is very abrupt and more serious than funny which makes the ending feel wrong.

Accusing him of being a virgin is wrong. Saying she's a virgin and having him volunteer that's he is too is a different issue. It makes it sounds like she's an older woman coming on to this younger guy, and she does it in a serious tone. That's what bothers me. It's a breach of professional boundaries. It mixes "coming of age" with "teen angst" with "family drama" and then ends with "it's a joke".

It's your script. And if you want to shoot it that way for the practice, go for it. The reader part of me says, keep the story line simple and light.

Inarius · Apr 24, 2015

FantasySciFi, in this draft, Ilana has no husband. I made her problem more light and similar to his. She suffers from unrequited love, just like him. No addicted son, no child rape. Only a man she loves, who uses her to do favors for him. Just like Shlomi is used by the girl he loves. Both problems are the same, none is bigger or smaller, and both can be solved by a single "Go f*ck yourself" on the phone.

On the Ledge - Draft 5

Why do you think it's wrong if Ilana comes on to Shlomi in a seemingly serious tone? Yes, we've seen it a lot that women of 30+ come on to guys under 18. It's a serious subject. What if I make the audience think it's going in that direction, and then cut their expectations in an absurd and funny way. I've seen this "result fails the expectations" thing done in many comedies. What do you think?

maz · Apr 24, 2015

Better, but a major problem still with the current draft is the way Shlomi blurts out his reason for being there even when he sees what Ilana is doing - nobody is quite that self-absorbed, and it also detracts from the point of Ilana being there, which is to shock Shlomi into thinking differently. Instead he attempts to proceed just as he originally planned.

Also, again, I would just jump straight into him arriving at the clinic. That opening scene is slow and awkward and doesn't add anything that couldn't have more weight and value revealed later on anyway.

Inarius · Apr 24, 2015

Well, Shlomi is an absurd character.
Who would stay virgin just because he wants a certain girl to be his first time? That's a fairytale.
And who would google "how to take a girl to a movie"?

Anyway, I'll write another draft and try to implement your notes.

maz · Apr 24, 2015

Inarius said:
and try to implement your notes.

Hey, pay no attention to my notes; it's FSF you should be paying attention to