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Old 12-05-2017, 08:41 AM   #31
John_Whitehead
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The recent allegations against Harvey Weinstein and others seems to be an insidious trend that has been going on in Hollywood since time immemorial. The terrible thing is that people on the inside have known about this for years and its only now that something is being done about it.

Weinstein's dismissal from the company is just the beginning. There will be many changes in Hollywood personal before the year is done. The list will only get longer because this isn't just about one man or even a few bad apples, its about the whole way in which the industry treats women, its a patriarchal culture that needs to be shook up and eradicated.

Israel Horowitz is the latest name to added this week joining Kevin Spacey, Casey Affleck, Dustin Hoffman etc etc etc.

Here's a list in full if you need it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41940680
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:10 AM   #32
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and let's remember; men have been exploited too. Not just the women.

and let's also remember that most of these victims had a choice. They could have immediately called the police. They could have immediately called the union. They chose to put up with the exploitation rather than lose a role in a movie. Kind of like selling your soul to the devil if you thing about it... and I'm sure that plenty of woman (and men) didn't need to be exploited. There are those who were voluntary. They were more than happy to blow the producer to get the part. There are no innocent victims in this story. We are talking about Hollywood where people would do ANYTHING to be in a movie...

I'm not defending anyone who exploited these people. All I'm saying is that they had a choice. They didn't NEED to be in that movie. They could have kept their dignity and called the police. They chose not to. They are adults. They made that decision. Life is about accepting responsibility for your decisions. Right now ol' Harvey and Kevin and some of the others are accepting responsibility for the decisions they made. A woman who accepts something from a man in exchange for her dignity is just as guilty as the man in my opinion... It's good that they are coming forward now but they really should have come forward decades ago when the alleged exploitation occurred.
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Old 12-05-2017, 11:19 AM   #33
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You are right Velusion, women are not the only ones being harassed here.

As Kevin Spacey's recent exploits have proven this affects men as well as women. This being brought to light by actor Anthony Rapp's (Star Trek: Discovery) experience regarding sexual misconduct by Spacey when he was only 14 years old. goo.gl/gizgUK

However, the idea that you think these victims had a choice in being abused in this manner is utterly deplorable. Could a 14 year old boy call the police and accuse a world renowned film star of being sexually abused? You might as well claim that anyone who has been abused had a choice.

This is the problem I am trying to address. This culture of silent abuse, the belief that we all have a choice, when those in powerful and influential positions take advantage of the young, the inexperienced, and the naive. That they somehow deserved it. They knew what was happening so they had a choice. That is absolutely and utterly abhorrent.

How can you even attempt to come forward to the authorities about something this serious when your limited position in the industry leaves you open to questioning? When to tell the truth opens you to ridicule, to be thrown to the wolves, where people like Harvey Weinstein can threaten you with ruin.

Is losing your entire career for the price of sexually exploiting yourself worth it? That should not be the question we are asking.

In any other position in any other industry would this behaviour be deemed okay, to put up with a bit of sexual harassment with the understanding that it is expected in order to get work in the industry that you want to build a career in? NO it isn't. So why should Hollywood be any different?

As sfoster said earlier when posting the article about Cara Delvinges experience, Cara didn't have many options when a creep like Weinstein makes his move on you. She wanted to leave and had to improvise by singing, pretending Weinstein's attempted seduction in inviting her up to his room was simply an audition, which it should have been in the first place.

This is the same story that we've heard from Angelia Jolie, Gwyneth Paltrow, Kate Beckinsale and Lea Seydoux. These brave women had to defend themselves against a monster and they did NOT to put up with it. It is only now that they finally have a voice to call these sexual deviants out.

goo.gl/LDiWfV

Back then they had no choice because who would believe them or who would even have the power to do anything about it. These men who abused women and men alike were too powerful to oppose.

No longer.
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Old 12-05-2017, 11:20 AM   #34
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There are no innocent victims in this story. We are talking about Hollywood where people would do ANYTHING to be in a movie...
There probably Are innocent victims. Don't lump them together with the ones who willingly had sex to advance their careers. There Are people who won't do Anything to be in a movie.
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:42 PM   #35
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You're right. There are some victims in this story. The 14 year old boy. The 2 Coreys. ALL exploited children are victims. No exception.
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Old 12-05-2017, 02:08 PM   #36
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and let's remember; men have been exploited too. Not just the women.

and let's also remember that most of these victims had a choice. They could have immediately called the police. They could have immediately called the union. They chose to put up with the exploitation rather than lose a role in a movie. Kind of like selling your soul to the devil if you thing about it... and I'm sure that plenty of woman (and men) didn't need to be exploited. There are those who were voluntary. They were more than happy to blow the producer to get the part. There are no innocent victims in this story. We are talking about Hollywood where people would do ANYTHING to be in a movie...

I'm not defending anyone who exploited these people. All I'm saying is that they had a choice. They didn't NEED to be in that movie. They could have kept their dignity and called the police. They chose not to. They are adults. They made that decision. Life is about accepting responsibility for your decisions. Right now ol' Harvey and Kevin and some of the others are accepting responsibility for the decisions they made. A woman who accepts something from a man in exchange for her dignity is just as guilty as the man in my opinion... It's good that they are coming forward now but they really should have come forward decades ago when the alleged exploitation occurred.
it's really not that simple.

#1 it's not just a role in a movie. All of the Harvey victims were risking their whole career AND a public smear campaign against their reputation via his media outlets. Losing a job is one thing, losing a career is entirely different.

keep in mind these people are victims. we call people that come forward heroes because it's more than what the average person does. It was one woman that started all of this, she worked with the police against Harvey. She is the exceptional person.

#2 in some of these cases it's not just losing a job, but getting all of your friends fired because the whole production gets shut down. People need their friends, it's asking a lot for someone to alienate all of their friends.

It's great to be a champion for future potential victims but no one asked for that responsibility and we should celebrate the exceptional people that rise to the occasion.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:13 PM   #37
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:52 PM   #38
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Sorry Velusion, I don't agree with blaming people who didn't dare to speak out.
The ones who did were destroyed with gossip, smeared as gold diggers or portrayed as junkies, so they were not only feeling ashamed of being a victim of sexual misconduct, but also embarrased in front of their friends and family.
So they were 'beaten' 3 times: firts when it happened, second time when they were not believed and the third time when their image was being destroyed.

Besides that: victims almost always feel ashamed of what happened. Partly that is due to constant victim blaming: rape victim? Your skirt was too short!

And even now, when the victims (mostly female, but indeed also male) dare to speak up, they are blamed for being silent up till now.

Either way: in this abuse of power, the victim always gets at least a part of the blame.

Going to the authorities: it is a logical thing to do.
But time and time again victims have not been believed or they were discredited.
People trying to warn against the powerfull predators were just not believed and proof is hard to provide in such cases.
With what we know now it is unbelievable they could go on.

Time and time again this has happened in history.
Just like it is unbelievable now that Jews warning about the death camps in 1942 were not believed for a long time. Because people have a hard time to imagine that such evil exists, whether it be industrial genocide or that fun guy you know or that amazing actor being a sexual predator. It just doesn't compute in our brain.

@Direktorik:
here in The Netherlands the most influential casting director of the national film industry (who was also a succesful producer and director) did exploit men. Mostly inexperienced actors were invited for 'private class'. Sneaky as he was he never touched them, but let them practise erotic scenes where they had to touch themselves.
Metoo gave many of those men the courage to speak out.
Word is that Yorrick van Wageningen never got a part in The Netherlands because he did play along with this casting directors dirty 'games', so he went to Hollywood. (And became succesful.)

Here we see the same pattern: in the 90s he was let go from a casting agency because of rumours about his misconduct, but nobody dared to file a report. That would mean you would no longer get any parts at all. Or at least: that is what people feared.
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:39 PM   #39
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:55 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Velusion View Post
and let's also remember that most of these victims had a choice. They could have immediately called the police. They could have immediately called the union. They chose to put up with the exploitation rather than lose a role in a movie. Kind of like selling your soul to the devil if you thing about it... and I'm sure that plenty of woman (and men) didn't need to be exploited. There are those who were voluntary. They were more than happy to blow the producer to get the part. There are no innocent victims in this story. We are talking about Hollywood where people would do ANYTHING to be in a movie...
[...]
A woman who accepts something from a man in exchange for her dignity is just as guilty as the man in my opinion... It's good that they are coming forward now but they really should have come forward decades ago when the alleged exploitation occurred.
I'll add to my list:

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One of these victim blaming, misogynistic attitudes is 'she did it to advance her career'/'slept her way to the top'/'blew the Producer to get the part'/other similar sentiments.

Unconscious sexism is extremely prevalent in our society, and it's become so normalised that often we don't even realise we're doing it. We must ensure we call out misogynistic attitudes in others and more importantly learn to recognise when we're doing it ourselves if we have any chance of eradicating these detrimental attitudes from our society.
Please share what further information you may have about these particular instances, because as far as I can tell it has been entirely unwanted, unprovoked, invasive and ultimately scarring.

And no, going to the police or the union is not and was not a solution for many if not all of those who are abused by people who hold the most power in Hollywood.
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Old 12-05-2017, 08:59 PM   #41
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Jane Mable, an actress from the early talkies bragged about how she slept her way through the ranks to progress her career.

I'm with you guys. I wish this was the kind of world where people always moved forward in their careers through hard work and dedication but the truth of the matter is that people get ahead by who they know and who they blow... A crude expression I admit but I didn't make it up. The casting couch is real and probably has been real since before there was a casting couch.

This is all so terrible.
A fat disgusting pig with a lot of power using it to exploit women.
Women allowing it to happen for the sake of their career and the oh mighty dollar.
Our society should not be this way.

Then again, if it wasn't for juicy scandals like this, the rest of us would not be able to get on our soap boxes and pontificate about how terrible these abusers are. We would not be able to point our finger at the bad guys and exclaim how very very wrong they are. We sleep better knowing that we are better than Harvey and the rest of the bad guys. We go to on-line forums and tell others how bad people like Harvey are,,,, but who are we? Which one of us is so Christ-like that we've earned the right to pass judgement on others. Which one of you is without sin or spiritual transgression? I would wager that none of us is so clean. ... This is between these women and men and their abusers and the authorities. Not a single one of us knows anything except what we read in books and news papers, and on-line. Don't pretend that you have some inside information. Rose Mcgowan says that Harvey raped her.... The only 2 people who know if that is true or not is Rose and Harvey......

But .alas, it does make for some good conversation around the water cooler at work, doesn't it?
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:08 PM   #42
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Say goodnight to the bad guy.
Last time you're gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you.



Something sending shockwaves across multiple industries is not just between a victim and the predator.

Last edited by sfoster; 12-05-2017 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:39 PM   #43
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if it wasn't for juicy scandals like this, the rest of us would not be able to get on our soap boxes and pontificate about how terrible these abusers are. We would not be able to point our finger at the bad guys and exclaim how very very wrong they are. We sleep better knowing that we are better than Harvey and the rest of the bad guys. We go to on-line forums and tell others how bad people like Harvey are,,,, but who are we? Which one of us is so Christ-like that we've earned the right to pass judgement on others. Which one of you is without sin or spiritual transgression? I would wager that none of us is so clean.
Well I never sexually harassed anyone so is it okay for me to pass judgement on Harvey?
Or do I really have to be Christ-like super clean to be able to do that?
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:51 PM   #44
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Jane Mable, an actress from the early talkies bragged about how she slept her way through the ranks to progress her career.
And therefore any female who has experienced sexual assault towards her was 'asking for it' or at least 'not innocent'?

You're right, it is messed up that our society allows 'casting couches' to happen, and that women can feel so powerless that they feel they need to comply to advance their career. Or alternately, by not complying that they would be destroying their careers. And that speaking out would also be disastrous for their careers. It's also messed up that up until right now, speaking out would have been disastrous for their careers.

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if it wasn't for juicy scandals like this, the rest of us would not be able to get on our soap boxes and pontificate about how terrible these abusers are. [...] who are we? Which one of us is so Christ-like that we've earned the right to pass judgement on others. Which one of you is without sin or spiritual transgression? I would wager that none of us is so clean.
Yes, because unless every single person in the world is perfect and without sin, we should not even attempt to change our society, or call out bad behaviour, right...?

The point isn't to point fingers and talk about how bad 'they' are. It's to bring about societal change. It's to stand up for what's right and say that inappropriate behaviour is totally unacceptable and we will not stand for it, regardless of who you are.

This is not just some 'juicy scandal'. As I said:

Quote:
Unconscious sexism is extremely prevalent in our society, and it's become so normalised that often we don't even realise we're doing it. We must ensure we call out misogynistic attitudes in others and more importantly learn to recognise when we're doing it ourselves if we have any chance of eradicating these detrimental attitudes from our society.
Suggesting that a female who has been sexually assaulted in any way, shape or form was 'not totally innocent' or must have been at least a little compliant, because she must have been doing it to get a part is a misogynistic attitude that must be called out if we have any chance of eradicating these detrimental attitudes from our society.
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:06 PM   #45
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Tony Montana.. I knew someone would spot that one

Buscando, let me ask you; what sense of satisfaction to you get condemning Harvey? He is the one who has to live with what he had done. He has pretty much lost everything he worked his entire life building (just like Bill Cosby).

Do you think Harvey is the devil? because if he is the devil I say let's call an exorcist to get him out of here.

Harvey is a sick man who had the power that allowed him to do the things he did. Maybe if he never had that power he would have been a different person. I don't hate him. I do not wish him any harm. I pity him and I hope he can find some resolution to the problems he has.

Yes, I do believe people are responsible for their actions, no matter how sick they may be. He is now answering for the things he has done. The chickens have come home to roost...

Ask yourself, why did he do these things? It probably has something to do with his upbringing. I'm not making excuses for him but unless you believe he is a product of pure evil, he did these things as a response to something that probably happened to him when he was young. Well adjusted people don't suddenly turn into sociopaths.

Guys like you and I will never know what that much power can do to a person. You may not want to entertain the idea but what if you were a big time movie producer with more power than most of Hollywood. Can you say for certain that it would not corrupt you in any way?? Cause I'll tell ya, I'm honest enough to say that if I had that power and I was surrounded by beautiful women I might be tempted to use it. No, not rape or coercion but maybe a little "I scratch your back - you scratch mine".... if they were willing. Now, if you say that you absolutely know that you would not even be tempted I will say that you are in denial.

Quote:
Something sending shockwaves across multiple industries is not just between a victim and the predator
Come on...... this "shockwave" is only a forced - politically correct response to something that I'm sure EVERYONE knows happens in Hollywood and everywhere else on a daily basis. Do you think Harvey invented the casting couch,,,, and how come a guy like me who has never worked in Hollywood knows about the casting couch? Answer: because EVERYONE knows about it.

Don't get me wrong guys. I am not on Harvey's side but instead, I do see him as a human being who made some bad choices in life.

Last edited by Velusion; 12-05-2017 at 10:27 PM.
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