Seeking Sound Card and Video Card Advice

[Alcove Audio]

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

So... first, how do you "switch from stereo tv calibration to 5.1 tv to theatrical calibration" with press of a button? Maybe those speakers come with software and remotes or something?

More of a question for A.P.E. or Georgia, but...

Theatrical calibration is based upon the "Academy Curve" or "X-Curve."

http://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/z...%20Journal.pdf



Things have changed and altered considerably since first Dolby, then THX, and then various forms of surround came into being.

Theaters are supposed to calibrate each film when it is brought into the theater for the first time, although most never do. This is to insure that each speaker is working properly and responding to the correct frequencies. (BTW, they are supposed to calibrate the visuals too.)

No matter which format - TV or Cinema - folding a surround mix down to stereo creates audio problems; these are usually phasing issues when surround effects are pushed into the stereo field.

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

Second... how do you calibrate near field speakers to emulate a cinema in a small room?

You can't. That's why seriously budgeted films mix on a proper mix stage that is set up like a real movie theater. The best you can do listen to LOTS of films in your listening environment and try to approximate those mixes. Then take your mix to an actual theater, make notes about the deficiencies, then go back and try again.

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

Third... I'm not sure I understand why audio and video would be out of sync if the analogue inputs aren't used.

Different TVs have different reaction times, and most softwares tend to have latency issues of one type or another.

[AudioPostExpert]

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

I just read another post by someone who said "My room, where I edit, colorcorrect and mix tv and the occasional cinema release is about in the middle of your two possible rooms. I use a Dynaudio Air 15 5.1 setup, which is hooked up digital and is extremely flexible. I have calibrated the whole setup and switch from stereo tv calibration to 5.1 tv (with and without bassmanagement), to theatrical calibration ( x-curve, modified x-curve) with press of a button. I use the analog inputs of the system when I'm editing video ( feeding them the audio from à 52" plasma which gets it's signal from à Blackmagic HD Extreme). This way I avoid the audio and video being out of sync when editing in FCP And Avid MC."

So... first, how do you "switch from stereo tv calibration to 5.1 tv to theatrical calibration" with press of a button? Maybe those speakers come with software and remotes or something?

Second... how do you calibrate near field speakers to emulate a cinema in a small room?

Third... I'm not sure I understand why audio and video would be out of sync if the analogue inputs aren't used.

With one exception noted below, all of what Alcove states is correct but there are a few points I'll add:

1. The Dynaudio Air 15s are good monitors, well suited to music production, TV broadcast applications and editing but inappropriate for mixing theatrical release material, as Dynaudio states "the AIR15 is equally suitable for broadcast or edit suite purposes".

2. It is possible, depending on the specific speaker management system to switch between different settings but again, the theatrical settings are designed for basic editing, not mixing. And of course, these settings are only really applicable in a well acoustically treated room.

3. Although the situation is starting to change, virtually all commercially released theatrical features I know of are distributed with Dolby Digital (DD) sound. The completed DD mix can only be created by a Dolby certified dubbing theatre and there is no way Dolby would certify a room for mixing theatrical features which used the Dynaudio Air15s. Which is why Dynaudio don't state or even suggest the Air15s are suitable for theatrical mixing even though I sure they'd love to!

4. Beyond the x-curve, there are additional differences between theatrical and broadcast audio calibrations. For example, not only are the SPL levels calibrated differently overall but there are also different surround and LFE settings required.

5. Getting accurate sync between the audio and video is not a trivial problem to solve. Both the audio and video outputs induce various different delays and matching these delays requires specialist equipment and a fair amount of knowledge. The solution is certainly nowhere near as simple as just using the analogue outputs from a TV! In fact, the output delay of the HD Extreme even varies according to what video codec you are using. Providing the poster of the message you are quoting has set his/her system up correctly, the most accurate sync he/she can hope for is probably a frame or two. However, for higher end professional applications (and it doesn't get more higher end than theatrical release), sync accuracy of at least a quarter of a frame is standard practice. Having said all this, it's not entirely clear how the original poster has his/her system set up.

Originally Posted by Alcove Audio

Theaters are supposed to calibrate each film when it is brought into the theater for the first time, although most never do.

This is not my understanding or experience. When beginning a Dolby Digital mix (for theatrical release) Dolby absolutely requires the presence of one of it's own technicians (in addition of course to the facility's own re-recording mixer/s), to check both the room calibration and then the technical aspects of the print-mastering process. Avoiding this requirement goes against the terms of agreement between the dubbing theatre and Dolby and no Dolby certified facility in my experience would even contemplate the notion. Besides, the way Dolby charges it's licensing fee makes it pretty much impossible anyway. This is only for theatrical release though, Dolby Digital for HDTV broadcast or DVD/BluRay release has no such requirement.

G

[Mannie Bothans]

Because our basement is completely unfinished, we have the option of "doing it right" to start with, but the more I learn, it looks like it will cost about 4x what a "normal" basement would cost (in materials alone) to do a halfway decent job with the audio treatment and ADR booth isolation. I am even seriously considering getting someone like John H. Brandt to design the rooms, because acoustic design is so complex and baffling to me.

I still haven't settled on the exact monitors to get because the final size of the space has not yet been determined. I still don't know what video monitors I am going to get, either. I live just 2 hours away from ADK so I think I will go with them for the computer. I am looking at an Intel - 6 Core i7 overclocked to 4.5GHz with HT 12meg cache, liquid cooler, 32gig DDR3, GeForce GTX 670, 1 240GB SSD, two Western Digital - 2TB Raid 0 drives, an external N3200PRO 3 Bay NAS RAID 5, with BMD Intensity Shuttle, and Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 Interface.

If so, this will eliminate the need to save up for a 10bit video monitor because I wouldn't even have a video card that would support it. (Not to mention that the camera I own doesn't export full 10bit color, either.) Well, maybe it might if I HDMI out directly to a hard drive... I haven't tried to store uncompressed that way (because I don't have fast enough portable raids).

But because

Originally Posted by Alcove Audio

The best you can do listen to LOTS of films in your listening environment and try to approximate those mixes. Then take your mix to an actual theater, make notes about the deficiencies, then go back and try again.

I would probably be better off calibrating my own monitors to "TV calibration" and not worrying about x-curve, modified x-curve, or academy because neither the speakers nor the room are in the right ballpark anyway.

Originally Posted by Alcove Audio

No matter which format - TV or Cinema - folding a surround mix down to stereo creates audio problems; these are usually phasing issues when surround effects are pushed into the stereo field.

So, even if I had the budget, maybe I shouldn't even worry about trying to get a 5.1 monitoring system. (That would allow me to spend my money on fewer, better monitors.)

[Alcove Audio]

You have to decide exactly what your "mission" is. Are you going to be a visual editor? Are you going to be an audio editor? Are you going to be a rerecording mixer? Each of these has a different set of requirements. You will find even as a a visual editor that at least some sound isolation and treatment will be very welcomed. Fairly thorough sound isolation and treatment is almost a requirement for sound editing, but 5.1 monitoring is not a necessity. A true mix room has to meet very specific specifications to achieve certification.

When beginning a Dolby Digital mix (for theatrical release) Dolby absolutely requires the presence of one of it's own technicians (in addition of course to the facility's own re-recording mixer/s), to check both the room calibration and then the technical aspects of the print-mastering process. Avoiding this requirement goes against the terms of agreement between the dubbing theatre and Dolby and no Dolby certified facility in my experience would even contemplate the notion.

That may be true in Europe, but not here in the US. I have been to quite a few opening nights of new "Hollywood" films where the sound was terrible and the film out of focus. I make my complaints and get my money back and do not return to those theaters. I'm sure you've seen the discussions on the GS Post Production forum and on the Sound Design and Sound Article List forums where well known rerecording mixers go to see their own film at a regular theater here in the US and wonder what the f*** happened to their mix.

[Mannie Bothans]

There's no way I will ever have my own mixing studio.

In my "day job" I work for a local charity. In the past, we have hired video crews to come out and do interviews, etc. They will usually send one guy out with a camera, a few lights, a few mics, and very little else. They will spend a few hours and then take everything they record to their place and do everything in house. Then we get the finished product on a DVD.

Basically, I took a look at what they were doing and I siad to myself, "want to be able to do that."

That would involve mixing, editing, the whole nine yards-- audio and video.

These guys only have a couple of people on their payroll and they do lots of local commercials, lots of non-profit promos, video podcasts, wedding videography, some short documentaries, and they even do a local TV show-- oh, and they made their own feature-length fictional movie. They do this full time, but I would be doing it part time.

I'd like to have a good enough setup that I could put together a small 48 film project team, and do other for-fun projects without having to send everything to a real audio house. An extemely expensive hobby? Yes, for sure. But if I can make some money with the gear as a part-time job-- all the better.

Maybe I just haven't met the right up-and-coming local sound guru who has all of her or his own gear, and that's why I keep thinking I want to edit my own video and audio. Maybe I'm just too inexperienced to recognize the bang-for-buck value of hiring the pros to do the audio post on my little hobby films. (I don't even know how much it would cost to just give everything to an audio post person and have them handle that much of the sound design in post.)


Oh--- and regarding the dolby certification issue... are you two talking about two different things? Sounds like APE is referring to the certification of a mixing theater whereas AA might be referring to where I go to the movies?

[Alcove Audio]

Yes, you are right - I'm talking about theaters open to the general public, while A.P.E. is talking about the actual dub-stage where the film is mixed.

[Mannie Bothans]

Originally Posted by AudioPostExpert

$5k is a good budget for monitors in a 2,200 cubic foot room and for that you'd be able to afford a pair of Genelec 8260A. With some decent acoustic treatment and these monitors you'll have a room up to professional standards for mixing stereo TV and an excellent stereo film editing and sound design room.

G,

Are you sure you meant the 390W Genelec 8260As? For 62.2971 cubic meters?

The prices I am finding for these monitors is much more like $5,000.00 US dollars EACH.

[AudioPostExpert]

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

There's no way I will ever have my own mixing studio.

Well, there are professional mixing studios and there are professional mixing studios. To get to low budget stereo TV broadcast standards I would say is just about doable for say $10k. The other end of the professional mixing studio spectrum is going to cost many millions and you can find examples of mix studios pretty much everywhere between these two extremes. There's no reason why you can't have a professional standard mixing studio, albeit at the low budget TV broadcast end of the professional scale.

To be honest, if I were you, I would stick to stereo. 5.1 not only multiplies the cost of your speaker system but also multiples the computer and ancillary resources required, multiplies the acoustic problems of your room (and therefore the cost of dealing with them) and multiplies the knowledge required to create a competent mix.

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

...These guys only have a couple of people on their payroll and they do lots of local commercials, lots of non-profit promos, video podcasts, wedding videography, some short documentaries, and they even do a local TV show-- oh, and they made their own feature-length fictional movie. They do this full time, but I would be doing it part time.

We are in danger of getting into the philosophical argument of "what is professional?". I've seen people working for low budget regional TV stations justifiably calling themselves "professional" but producing/broadcasting mixes which would not have got them a pass mark at university and would have most experienced pros shaking their heads in disbelief. It's worthy of a whole thread or two on it's own to discuss the concept of "up-and-coming" sound gurus and what an experienced professional sound designer is and can bring to a project. As with professional mix studios, there are sound designers/re-recording mixers and there are sound designers/re-recording mixers and they range in price/ability from zero to well into four figures per day.

If the feature they made was for theatrical distribution, they would most likely have had to go elsewhere for their audio post. For DVDs though there are no required audio standards, so you get commercial DVDs which run the gamut from the sound being produced by cheap little budget studios all the way up to multi-million dollar facilities.

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

Oh--- and regarding the dolby certification issue... are you two talking about two different things?

I'm coming to the conclusion that we are, yes. I'm talking about the requirement for a Dolby technician to be present at the start of every mix in a Dolby dubbing (re-recording) theatre, for material which is to be released theatrically in Dolby Digital. AFAIK, actual cinemas are supposed to be calibrated a minimum of once a year, or once every 6 months in the case of THX certification. I believe the discussions Alcove is referring to on GearSlutz and other audio post forums relate mainly to cinemas with their sound systems way out of whack, which unfortunately seems to be increasingly common, the reasons for this are interesting but a bit too far off topic.

G

[AudioPostExpert]

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

Are you sure you meant the 390W Genelec 8260As? The prices I am finding for these monitors is much more like $5,000.00 US dollars EACH.

Whoops, sorry about that. I heard them at a friend's studio and was seriously impressed, a quick lookup of the price and I missed the fact that was the individual price rather than for a pair.

You could try the 8250a if you are really hooked on the idea of DSP controlled monitors. The problem you have with these and other comparable monitors is that with your size room and budget you are firmly in the territory of near-field speakers, which are designed to be listened to from roughly 2 or 3 feet away, rather than sat further back as you are planning and near-fields do not have good bass response to start with, let alone sitting further away than designed. An alternative would be the 1032A, no DSP but still a very good speaker and slightly more of a mid-field monitor with a better bass response than most near-fields. The 1032As are not ideal and certainly not as good as the 8260As but still well up to the standards expected of a lower budget professional TV mix room.

G

[Mannie Bothans]

Originally Posted by AudioPostExpert

We are in danger of getting into the philosophical argument of "what is professional?". I've seen people working for low budget regional TV stations justifiably calling themselves "professional" but producing/broadcasting mixes which would not have got them a pass mark at university and would have most experienced pros shaking their heads in disbelief.

Alas, I, too, want to wade not into the debate too far-- but I have always used the term "professional" to apply to someone who is paid to do what they do. We certainly paid money for the PMG guys to make the promo video at http://youtu.be/9fUb3c08svg

Originally Posted by AudioPostExpert

If the feature they made was for theatrical distribution, they would most likely have had to go elsewhere for their audio post.

Actually I was mistaken in my assumptions. I looked it up and it wasn't a fictional feature, it was a documentary-- and as it turns out, it only aired on our states educational tv channel. But I digress...

Originally Posted by AudioPostExpert

You could try the 8250a if you are really hooked on the idea of DSP controlled monitors. The problem you have with these and other comparable monitors is that with your size room and budget you are firmly in the territory of near-field speakers, which are designed to be listened to from roughly 2 or 3 feet away, rather than sat further back as you are planning and near-fields do not have good bass response to start with, let alone sitting further away than designed. An alternative would be the 1032A, no DSP but still a very good speaker and slightly more of a mid-field monitor with a better bass response than most near-fields. The 1032As are not ideal and certainly not as good as the 8260As but still well up to the standards expected of a lower budget professional TV mix room.

Well, the autocal sounds very appealing, indeed. But the 1032As would be more suited to my 2200cubic foot room than the 8250As? The chart at http://www.genelec.com/learning-cent...tem-selection/ seems to indicate that the 8250As are okay listening between 4 and 7 feet away in a room up to 3400ft3.

[AudioPostExpert]

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

Alas, I, too, want to wade not into the debate too far-- but I have always used the term "professional" to apply to someone who is paid to do what they do. We certainly paid money for the PMG guys to make the promo video at http://youtu.be/9fUb3c08svg

I think different people have different definitions. When I was 16 I was paid decent money to play in a local school's orchestra, a few years later I went to a top music conservatory for several years and then a while after that started working professionally. At 16 I was far closer to a complete beginner than to even the minimum acceptable professional standards but by your definition wasn't I already a professional at 16? If you were to pay someone $500 a week to edit/mix sound, at best they would be grossing $25k a year. Take out equipment/operating costs and taxes etc. Is what's left enough to pay rent and support a family where they live? If the answer is "no" then they are an amateur or maybe semi-professional but by my personal definition they are not a professional.

I've listened to your promo video and IMO the sound is far below acceptable professional standards. There are fundamental unacceptable errors such as editing clicks, which even a first year student would not be allowed to get away with. There are also spurious sounds which could have been easily edited out, mis-matched background hiss, a little too much essing in places, the use of EQ and compression was sometimes inappropriate and the balance between different VOs was not particularly good. If one of my trainee's had produced that mix, I would be suggesting a career change (unless it was their first ever attempt at editing/mixing). Without question, nothing like that would ever be allowed out of my door and it would be rejected by the QC department of most respected broadcasters. Sorry to be so harsh, maybe they earned their money elsewhere in the making of your promo? To be honest, providing you have decent equipment/environment (which it sounds like you will), decent hearing and a bit of aptitude, it really would not take you long at all to surpass the quality of this example of "professional" audio work.

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

Well, the autocal sounds very appealing, indeed. But the 1032As would be more suited to my 2200cubic foot room than the 8250As? The chart at http://www.genelec.com/learning-cent...tem-selection/ seems to indicate that the 8250As are okay listening between 4 and 7 feet away in a room up to 3400ft3.

Unfortunately, much of the audio pro market is aimed at the music side of the business and as luck would have it, audio post for TV/Film is in many respects more demanding than music production, such is the case with speakers and acoustics. Audio post studios generally employ far more absorption than music studios, therefore requiring more power/output from the speakers. So you need to over specify and also remember the room volumes given are the maximum recommended, optimum room sizes (for audio post) would be considerably less. *Generally* under powered speakers are more of a concern in audio post than speakers which are too large. Also, I was under the impression that you were going to use your room at times as a bit of a home cinema, which would mean there would be people sitting more than 4ft away from the speakers as indeed would the average person watching TV or a DVD in their sitting room.

The other advantage of the 8250As is that they will accept a digital input which means you can go for a very cheap sound card with AES digital outputs, although a very cheap sound card may not be such a good idea in your case if you're also wanting to do some recording. I haven't heard the 8250As personally so I can't be sure of the sound but Genelec are one of the most respect professional monitor manufacturers. I would guess that without the additional fancy DSP and in-built D to A converters of the 8250As the 1032As would represent better quality purely from a speaker output point of view. Depending on your location, you might be able to get a dealer to bring both speakers to your studio (once the basic acoustic treatment is completed) so you can test them out and judge for yourself which is better. It's a bit of a chicken and egg situation though as you really want to apply acoustic treatment depending on the output of your speakers! If this isn't possible, the next best thing would be to go and have a listen at their showroom.

G

[Mannie Bothans]

Okay, with my wife changing jobs right now, we have put the studio on hold for now-- but I did buy a new computer and it finally arrived. I opted for cheaper audio monitors for now (since my dream studio is at least three years away, anyway).

I bought KRK rokits and went ahead and got this interface:

Originally Posted by Alcove Audio

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Scarlett2i2/

but just realized the 2i2 doesn't have XLR outs. Now I need to get some cables for the speakers. Since I am not going to solder my own connections, are there any brands of balanced cables with TRS connectors (or, for that matter, a TRS to XLR cable) that are better than others, or at this level of equipment, does it really not matter too much?

[AudioPostExpert]

Originally Posted by Mannie Bothans

but just realized the 2i2 doesn't have XLR outs. Now I need to get some cables for the speakers. Since I am not going to solder my own connections, are there any brands of balanced cables with TRS connectors (or, for that matter, a TRS to XLR cable) that are better than others, or at this level of equipment, does it really not matter too much?

Careful, audio cables and interconnects is a section of the industry more packed with snake oil salesmen/companies than any other sector of the audio industry!!! I don't know current prices in the US but I would expect a top quality 5' TRS-XLR cable to cost less than US$30, much more than this and you're looking at snake oil, regardless of the often quite sophisticated terminology and marketing used to sell them.

Neutrik connectors are the ones I usually look for, simply due to the robustness of their construction, I'm guessing around $3 - $4 each in the US. Then standard balanced cable from Mogami, Van Damme or Klotz should be well under US$5 per foot.

These are the brands and prices I use/expect here in Europe (roughly converted to US$), Alcove might have better suggestions for the US?

G

[Mannie Bothans]

Fancy terminology indeed! I was looking at these: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._TRS_Male.html

because all of that sophisticated "shielding" lingo sounded nice-- since these cables would be extremely close to power cords as well-- but it seemed like a bit much for such a short distance.

[Mannie Bothans]

Quick search tells me that Alcove likes ProCo or at least he has in the past.