Music With Lyrics

[mlesemann]

No insult intended, it's an honest question. I've been reading these exchanges for months without saying anything, and this is the conclusion that I drew.

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

You are not going to attempt everything they would attempt, you are not going to have the layers of sound they would have... It's likely to take longer.... uh... duh...

However, the idea that a competent sound guy can't successfully mix music with dialogue, Foley, etc... without a $1500 an hour studio and 25 assistants is just ludicrous. Is lit likely to win any academy awards, probably not, but most audiences without a side by side listening comparison would never know the difference IF he knows what he's doing and IF he has the time to give it his best shot.

[AudioPostExpert]

Originally Posted by mlesemann

No insult intended, it's an honest question. I've been reading these exchanges for months without saying anything, and this is the conclusion that I drew.

I have posted some information and received replies saying how useful it's been. I've deliberately used a nickname on this forum rather than my real name so that I could speak my mind and give unbiased opinion and advice without having to blow smoke up people's a$$s as I would with clients or potential clients.

Let me give you an analogy, perhaps that will help put this into context. Let's say someone posts a question on this forum, along the lines of:

"I want to make a feature from a screenplay I've got that's very similar to Lord of the Rings, using CGI, green screen, etc. Just like they did on LOTR. I've got a $500 laptop and a budget of $5k. Now obviously it doesn't need to look as good as LOTR but it does need to look decent and competent. How do I do it and what do I need to buy?"

Who here could give me practical advice on how to make this film? Pretty much anyone with any knowledge of filmmaking would know that you don't necessarily have to spend $350m to make a serious film like this but no matter how many corners you cut, you can't hope for anything even vaguely decent with just a laptop and $5k. Most reading this question would think it so absurd that they'd assume I'm either a complete novice, a troll or both. This is because most indy filmmakers have an idea of the issues and difficulty of creating convincing images. The best advice anyone could give would be to explain why they should drop the idea entirely or to approach it from a different angle by getting producer who knows what they are doing involved and attract a more reasonable budget.

Unfortunately, quite a few of the questions on this forum, looking at it from an audio point of view, are very similar to this hypothetical question above. Many on this forum seem quite knowledgeable, astute and practical when it comes to what types of films and shots fall outside their ability/resources or in finding the resources if it's essential to their film. What surprises me is that in general, many don't appear to anywhere near this same level of knowledge or practicality when it comes to sound. That's why so many films get rejected for problems with the sound.

Originally Posted by Gonzo_Entertainment

You are not going to attempt everything they would attempt, you are not going to have the layers of sound they would have... It's likely to take longer.... uh... duh...

If it takes 8-10 highly equipped and experienced audio professionals 2-3 months to do the audio post for an average feature length drama, how long do you give your single sound guy in his bedroom? ....duh!

Originally Posted by Gonzo_Entertainment

However, the idea that a competent sound guy can't successfully mix music with dialogue, Foley, etc... without a $1500 an hour studio and 25 assistants is just ludicrous. Is lit likely to win any academy awards, probably not, but most audiences without a side by side listening comparison would never know the difference IF he knows what he's doing and IF he has the time to give it his best shot.

I never said you needed a mix room costing $1,500 an hour or that the re-recording mixer needs 25 assistants are you trolling now?

Even if he knows what he's doing and has the time to give it his best shot, how can he give it his best shot if he has no idea what it's going to sound like? Would Rembrandt paint a masterpiece or even a competent picture if you blindfolded him?

I'm glad you have more knowledge and understanding of what an audience hears than a 20 year audio professional. Honestly, I wish you the best of luck together with your guy with the $5k bedroom studio, IMHO, you're going to need it.

G

[wheatgrinder]

For my current project I purposely wrote scenes that would use "pop" music, local bands only with rights etc. Though it might not be real world realistic, I have a bar scene where a live band is playing, this gives me a great excuse to have the music playing back. The play back of the music overlaps other action. No dialogue, though I do show people talking, its part of the story that you don't KNOW what they are talking about.. the visuals tell it anyway.

Of course the BAND playing is actually the band that recorded the song and I have them lip syncing in the video. I have another scene where action is set to a song.. again the story supports it and the script is crafted so that it makes sense.. now, when I finally release this gem, you can tell me if I'm off the mark!

[wheatgrinder]

Watched Dazed and Confused the other night.. they did a lot of pop music in the score, driving around in cars etc.. seems to work mostly. Some one turns up the radio and boom, its coming through on the movie in full stereo (not worldized)

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

"I wish you the best of luck together with your guy with the $5k bedroom studio, IMHO, you're going to need it."

You realize that puts me in probably the top 1% of films in the sub $100K budget range right... That we even have a dedicated post audio guy who pretty much knows what he's doing instead of just letting the editor do it.

[AudioPostExpert]

Originally Posted by Gonzo_Entertainment

You realize that puts me in probably the top 1% of films in the sub $100K budget range right... That we even have a dedicated post audio guy who pretty much knows what he's doing instead of just letting the editor do it.

You're missing the issue, your audio post guy may have Protools and be an expert with a shelf full of Oscars and Baftas but with $5k of gear in a bedroom there is no chance of him knowing what he's doing! Any professional sound mixer will tell you exactly the same thing. To have any idea of what you are doing you have to have a monitoring system and environment which matches those in a cinema as closely as possible and you couldn't get further away from this ideal than $5k of equipment in a bedroom! OK, not quite true, you could go for $1k of equipment in a toilet, that would be a little worse but there wouldn't be much in it!

G

[MetalRenard]

APE, sometimes I feel that your posts are unnecessary. Yes, one guy with 5k of gear in a bedroom won't match a specialised team with specialised equipment, but you talk as if it's impossible to do a decent job, which is a lie. It won't match Hollywood, sure, but with the right knowledge you can go a long way. Stop being so argumentative and putting down "the little guy", give people a chance to grow and get off your tyrannical throne once in a while.

I've had enough of reading your hyper-critical posts about how everyone will fail if they don't do things your way. You're not helping anyone, just misleading the uninformed.

[AudioPostExpert]

Originally Posted by MetalRenard

Yes, one guy with 5k of gear in a bedroom won't match a specialised team with specialised equipment, but you talk as if it's impossible to do a decent job, which is a lie.

Why are there so many people here are arguing from a point of zero knowledge and experience? You go ahead and believe what you wish but for those with any interest in the facts, here is another explanation which may help your understanding:

1. Does the sound of a door closing in your bedroom 3' away sound even vaguely similar to a door closing 50' away in a cinema? OK, that takes care of the difference in acoustics.

2. Does a $1k near field monitoring system sound even vaguely similar to a $100k far field monitoring system which doesn't even employ the same type of technology? OK, that takes care of the monitoring system.

3. Add these two differences together!

For the last time, it does not matter what experience you have! If you're working in a bedroom, there is virtually no relation between what you are hearing and what will be heard by the audience in a cinema and so you have no idea what you're doing. MetalRenard if you had been in audio post for longer than 5 minutes you would know this. You would also know that this phenomena is called "translation" and is widely discussed by audio post professionals.

Sure it's better to use an experienced audio post professional in a bedroom than a video editor in an edit suite but without knowing what your work is going to sound like, the chances of even an experienced pro doing a decent job are slim to zero. I'm not talking about competition for a Hollywood mix (absolutely zero), I'm talking about a decent mix. Ask any experienced pro mixer if you don't believe me, there are plenty of them on gearslutz or the ProTools forums. Every single one of them would tell you that due to translation issues neither they nor anyone else could produce a decent film mix in a bedroom. I afraid that by arguing against this basic fact all you are doing is demonstrating your lack of knowledge and experience in the area of film mixing!

It's obvious no one on this thread is interested in the facts and instead want to live in some sort of fantasy land where anything is possible if you wish hard enough and click your heels three times, so I'll leave this thread now and let you enjoy your mutual fantasy together.

[MetalRenard]

Good, glad you're gone. Now we can get to answering the questions and boosting confidence of film makers rather than digging their graves.

[Gonzo_Entertainment]

With a decently sound configured room and good quality studio monitors you may not be able to properly replicate a theater (which if any of our films got wide enough release to actually worry about that we'd likely have the money for second bite at audio post, which is pretty common), but it can absolutely get you in the ballpark.

[wheatgrinder]

Go to typical film festivals that would show your film..
Even the winners have dodgy sound..
when your ready for the big leagues pony up the cash.

bad -> better -> good -> better -> great -> better -> really great -> ...
its called a continuum and we all should be moving from left to right with each project.

[rocksure]

Perhaps this forum should have low end and high end theory sections like on Gearslutz when it comes to audio? Because I have noticed in the last couple of months that it has become filled with a case of: 'unless you have a dolby room to do your post in you may as well quit now because your audio will be junk' attitude.
Were Peter Jackson's first attempts at films made in multi million dollar complexes with the best in high end audio equipment, or did he work his way up to that scenario?
Actually I am not serious about having low and high end sections, but I think that the way this has all progresssed recently could perhaps discourage people from starting out, rather than help or encourage them.
To get really top notch audio you need great gear and superb environments to work in, that's a fact, but for at least for the most part, many of those on this forum will be in the basement or on the bottom rung of the ladder so to speak, and so setting a bar height to jump at the Olympics is above where they are at.
Just my two cents worth anyway.

[Zensteve]

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[MetalRenard]

That was exactly my reason for arguing with previous comments. Thanks.