How far off am I on the basic concepts?

[Boxt]

Cygnus, what do you mean by a test film? Just curious.

[jax_rox]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

Some of our larger shoots can have 30 crew members plus the talent, the agents, the art director, the client and any reps that someone thinks that they need.

An average shoot has about 6 crew plus the talent.

I wouldn't suggest trying to pull off a film with 6 crew Some try to do it, but it makes it infinitely harder, IMO. Getting a good crew together is really important, and you need to make sure you have really good people in key roles like Producer, UPM, 1st AD, DP, Gaffer, Production Designer, Editor, Sound Designer, and then really good support crew for those people. If you do that, you'll end up woth a great film - but it can be a matter of budget sometimes as to whether you are able to get that many people on.

When I first started in photography I actually had the belief that photography was about a pretty picture. The business of photography has very little to do with the image. As silly as they may sound, it is true. For every hour that I have a camera in hand, about sixty hours are spent in dealing with every other detail on what is going to end up in that picture.

Well film is similar in taht way at least, just that there's a Producer whose job it is to do all of that business stuff, and everyone else is there to make the film look and sound good. There are those of us who don't have to worry about hardly any businessey stuff ever

The more I thin about it, the more I sort of liken photo shoots to TVC shoots. On a TVC you're usually trying to make things look glamorous, the spot is often not very long so you don't have a super long shoot and you're constantly bugged by the client and the agency on set

[Cygnus]

Originally Posted by Boxt

Cygnus, what do you mean by a test film? Just curious.

Over the years we have moved into larger and larger projects. There isn't really a way to learn how to do something other than to do it. You can read all the books that you want, but without the real life experience of doing it, you really won't know if it works.

When we wanted to go after some of the automotive market, we had to learn how to light a car that's driving along the highway or the bottom section of a double decker bridge before any of the ad agencies would think about hiring us to deliver those types of ads.

Same principle with making a movie. If we decide that we really want to move into making a film, we will make a film to make sure that we really can make a film. Start off simple, buy a script, put together a team, get the talent (probably regional actors from the play companies) do the filming, editing, and such. After than, do some local screenings and see if it really looks like a movie once it's up on the big screen. It's very possible that despite our best effort and intentions we're not able to do it.

I expect making a film is similar to photography in one major way. It takes more than wanting to and having nice equipment.

All I have today is a want to. I am going to spend a lot of time learning more before I suggest we make the move into film making.

Originally Posted by jax_rox

I wouldn't suggest trying to pull off a film with 6 crew

If we decide to actually make a test film, I would have more than six people helping me to put the idea together.

[jax_rox]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

I expect making a film is similar to photography in one major way. It takes more than wanting to and having nice equipment.

This. And also:

All I have today is a want to. I am going to spend a lot of time learning more before I suggest we make the move into film making.

This.

I am a bit of a photographer myself, nothing professional just a hobby on the side because I love imagery and I think it helps me with my cinematography.

There are probably a lot of similarities between the two, especially in terms of the pre- stuff. I think it's a great idea and I wish you all the best of luck with it. You seem to have your head screwed on right, and know that it's about more than just having a pipe dream and a fancy camera.

One thing I'd suggest, however, is to get a really good film Director on board. They obviously don't need to be a name talent, but smoeone who has some experience and who you like the work of. You can probably pull off the producing stuff yourself, and the cinematography, but get an experienced Director. I'd also suggest an experienced 1st AD and experienced Sound Recordist. IMO having those people on board are really going to make the difference between an actual film shoot and a bunch of photography guys trying to make a film.

[Cracker Funk]

Cygnus, the more you explain your ideas, the more I think you've got a really good head on your shoulders (not that you need my approval, obviously). Anyway, if you can get that budget together, if you do a lot of research (which it seems like you're doing), and if you hire experienced filmmakers, I see no reason why you can't produce something that'll sell.

Filmmaking is a lot of fun. You should do it!

[richy]

Hi, Cygnus. I'm much much more of a newb than you, so I cannot give any advice as others who are not have. But to just try to augment some positivity, let me add a few comments. As we all know, it's a very broad spectrum of folks who are now filmmaking. Compared to some of us backyard filmmakers and wannabe filmmakers, and that certainly includes me, it sounds to me like you're already well ahead of the curve. It's great that the experienced ITers have cautioned you to be sober about approaching filmmaking, and are giving you all kinds of help to modify your checklist. But I also feel like adding a heck yeah, go for it!

Well, it sounds like this is very much a business venture for you. I don't want you to lose money, of course. But like it's been said, you sound like you have a lot of business sense and experience already. If I understand right, you want your film to be essentially a big product spot for your existing (and perhaps additional?) clients, which is pretty much what you've been doing...only, minus the film part. Heck, why not?

And it sure sounds like your business experience has given you a headstart in the producer front.

You hear filmmakers talking about doing corporate films and commercials. I was just wondering, in the interests of taking small steps and learning the terrain before lungeing into a feature (not that you shouldn't lunge into a feature, but), might it be fruitful to first try your hands at a commercial or two...or a corporat film or two? Sounds like it would be right up your alley, really. Tackling that first might introduce you to those difficulties you've been cautioned about...get your feet a little wet.

Best of luck, and hope you enjoy it. =)

[Cygnus]

Originally Posted by richy

And it sure sounds like your business experience has given you a headstart in the producer front.

You hear filmmakers talking about doing corporate films and commercials. I was just wondering, in the interests of taking small steps and learning the terrain before lungeing into a feature (not that you shouldn't lunge into a feature, but), might it be fruitful to first try your hands at a commercial or two...or a corporat film or two? Sounds like it would be right up your alley, really. Tackling that first might introduce you to those difficulties you've been cautioned about...get your feet a little wet.

When we first began discussing the idea two years ago, we talked about all the options available. While everyone in our studio loves what we do, we are pretty much at the top of our game. There isn't a whole lot of untapped markets for us to move into.

We talked about going into fashion, which is the pinnacle of photography. While I don't mind being a butthole 60% of the time, I don't wish to be one 100% of the time, so we decided not to go that route.

Video is taking over the high end photography business of commercial and fashion, so we are all learning how to do it. Camera's like the Red system are the future, so we either accept it or move onto something else.

Because we are already involved in a small part of commercials, we have worked with a few of the bigger players in that field. If we decided to go that route, we would become direct competitors of the people who pay a lot of our bills. That's not the best business decision.

As an example, if we brought you into the commercial photography world, taught you the ends and outs and then you decide to go out on your own and become our competitor, someone's feelings are going to get hurt.

On the other hand if you came up through the ranks on your own, you're not really our competitor. You don't know who we know, and more importantly, who knows who we are.

I learned many years ago that if you go around stepping on toes, you may very well be stepping on your own.

Currently we have no contacts in the film industry, so we can't hurt someone's feelings by entering into it.

You are right that this is a business decision for our studio. None of us are "artists" in the true sense of the word. We love to be creative when we can be, but in the end, it's about making money.

[Boxt]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

Over the years we have moved into larger and larger projects. There isn't really a way to learn how to do something other than to do it. You can read all the books that you want, but without the real life experience of doing it, you really won't know if it works.

When we wanted to go after some of the automotive market, we had to learn how to light a car that's driving along the highway or the bottom section of a double decker bridge before any of the ad agencies would think about hiring us to deliver those types of ads.

Same principle with making a movie. If we decide that we really want to move into making a film, we will make a film to make sure that we really can make a film. Start off simple, buy a script, put together a team, get the talent (probably regional actors from the play companies) do the filming, editing, and such. After than, do some local screenings and see if it really looks like a movie once it's up on the big screen. It's very possible that despite our best effort and intentions we're not able to do it.

I expect making a film is similar to photography in one major way. It takes more than wanting to and having nice equipment.

All I have today is a want to. I am going to spend a lot of time learning more before I suggest we make the move into film making.




If we decide to actually make a test film, I would have more than six people helping me to put the idea together.

That makes a lot of sense, and is it a feature? Are you to produce, direct?

Hire really experienced people as heads of department. The upm/line producer and 1st AD will organise and run the shoot for you, I would spend the most money on these people, and choose people who explain things to you during the interview. The ones who are generous with their knowledge are always better to work with.

[richy]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

We talked about going into fashion, which is the pinnacle of photography. While I don't mind being a butthole 60% of the time, I don't wish to be one 100% of the time, so we decided not to go that route.

Now that is intriguing. Because I'm clueless about that/those industries, I have to ask: what do you mean by being a butthole? Being a fashion photography agency or production house or whatever is being a butthole? Can you pleeeeease elaborate on that? Because I'm sure it would be very interesting and informative to hear about that (for me anyway).


*****

Makes a lot of sense. Sounds like you don't want to bite the hand that feeds. Sensible.

So sounds like it's in your best business interests to not make commercials? Cool. Well, stick around I.T. You'll find lots of mostly friendly advice and encouragement. =)

[Cygnus]

Originally Posted by Boxt

That makes a lot of sense, and is it a feature? Are you to produce, direct?

Hire really experienced people as heads of department. The upm/line producer and 1st AD will organise and run the shoot for you, I would spend the most money on these people, and choose people who explain things to you during the interview. The ones who are generous with their knowledge are always better to work with.

Eventually I personally would like to direct. We have two photographers who are focused on the lighting, and one who wants to eventually write scripts. We all will continue to work on the producing (at least in the beginning). Putting together talent and money is what we do on a daily basis, that part won't change.

The plan (if we do this) is to hire experienced people to direct us in our goals. As an example, if I direct the test movie, an experienced director will be there on site to take over when needed, to show me how and why things need to be a certain way, etc.

That's how I do it when teaching another photographer. Let them go through once, then I show them how I would do it.

Of course it takes longer to do it this way, and costs more money, but it's harder to learn if you aren't hands on, at least for me.

Originally Posted by richy

Now that is intriguing. Because I'm clueless about that/those industries, I have to ask: what do you mean by being a butthole?

It's not limited to the photography business. To get to the top of any game there is a certain amount of ambition and ego that has to be involved.

When you start the climb to the top, other things get pushed off to the side. (That's the butthole part).

What most people find along the way is that they have no time for others who aren't working full time for the same goal. You have no time for people who make excuses. You have no time for people who are happy at the current level of success.

Trying to balance a complete workaholic attitude with those who aren't is really tough, and wears on you after a while.

Here is a recent example:

A local makeup artist wanted to do a "test" with us to show off her skills.

I set up the location and model, then the woman had to cancel the day of the shoot. (I don't remember the excuse).

A few days later she contacted me to reschedule.

I informed her that it wasn't going to happen, we don't have time for flakes.

In the real world, clients don't care why something doesn't get done, they only care that it didn't get done. It costs everyone money.

As much as I would like to be understanding about reasons/excuses, in the end it only means the job didn't get done.


The average person doesn't like to be so "black and white" in the thought process when people are involved.

In business, you don't have the ability to be "grey" too often.

Hopefully that answers your question..

[Boxt]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

Of course it takes longer to do it this way, and costs more money, but it's harder to learn if you aren't hands on, at least for me.

I think you're right. If you are not doing, you are not learning. With so many talented people around you already, would consider creating a collective while you are making test films? It's easy on the purse and a great way to work. It takes a lot more stamina but you will find the flakes drift away early. The figures you mentioned earlier, I wasn't sure if they were for the test film or the bona fide film. It was quite a high range for the test, I hope it was for the bona fide film. A collective approach might be the way to go. I produced seven short films that way before I ventured into a feature.

[trueindie]

Originally Posted by Cygnus

That makes sense.

As mentioned in the above reply, we do this all the time. In a couple of weeks we are shooting a shoe ad and we have five other vendors trying throw money into the shoot to get their products as part of the shoot.

Hi,
You're talking about product placement above for commercials and you say that you do this all the time. I'm just curious. How exactly do you get other vendor's interest in your projects? Is there some sort of already established network that you tap into? If so, how was this network created? And if not, would you please advise the rest of us and give us some tips on how to best go about approaching private organizations to be financially interested in our projects?

Thanks so much. It would truly be a great help for many of us neophytes if you could take some time and elaborate on some of this
Best,
Aveek