Home

Go Back   IndieTalk - Indie Film Forum > Tools of the Trade > Cameras & Lenses
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-18-2012, 06:30 PM   #31
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItDonnedOnMe View Post
How's that? He said he had a 1.2k HDMI on her face, so it's not like we're seeing a huge dynamic range displayed here.

There's some odd contouring along the right side of her neck. Could just be the results of his grading work, or possibly compression, but it's not something I'd generally expect to see with 10 or 12 bit source material.
1.2 HMI + 216 in an underlit room. That's the ONLY light in that room, being chopped to hell by 216 and probably far back.

The other side is bounce and there's neg. This situation isn't enough to bring up room level to broad daylight, that window would be gone on anything with less than 10 stops of usable DR, exposed at this level.

And, it should be something you'd see on a bad grade, which john admits he's no colorist. More than likely he applied a strange curve, that's all. That and the fact that you aren't watching an actual 12-bit vimeo file, because a 12-bit vimeo file doesn't exist. Any issues created by a weird grade will always be exaggerated.

It's going to happen more, most people at this level have NO idea what it means to color a raw image, and things are going to look like trash for quite some time.
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote




Old 04-18-2012, 07:08 PM   #32
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
For those that aren't familiar with it, here is a very quick, but barely surface scratching example of what raw is about.

Epic 5K screen caps, me quickly illustrating in about 3 minutes :


original



bad


a little better



No Colorist = detrimental. John did his best, but he openly states that an actual colorist would do a lot better.

Believe in it. =]

Last edited by Kholi; 04-19-2012 at 12:12 AM.
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 04:31 AM   #33
richy
Premiere Member
 
richy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: WI
Posts: 2,325
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItDonnedOnMe View Post
I don't know, I have a feeling this camera may have the opposite effect. Look at the digital bolex guys - they're basically the kind of garage start-up you're describing. A week ago they had an innovative camera a lot of people were excited about. Today they have a camera that costs slightly more for significantly less functionality - smaller sensor, lower resolution, no on board compression, no direct SSD recording, no high-res touchscreen, no thunderbolt, etc - and they don't have the support background, professional experience or reputation of black magic designs. You also don't get $1000+ of free high end professional software with their camera. Oh, and their target ship date is five months after black magic's. Long term they're dead in the water, at least with their current plans, so unfortunately I just don't see how a small garage startup will compete significantly with cameras with this level of functionality hitting the market in this price range.
Oh. I feel bad for the digital bolex guys. =(

Here's hoping that they're able to adapt.

What I think would be cool is if a company like BMD, or whichever, called you (ItDonnedOnMe), Kholi, Paul Griffith and the rest of you who know what's what to help them develop an awesome indie/B-cam/whatever cinema camera, like BMD let John Brawley in on their development of this camera...only with even more involvement. =D

I know we're not supposed to judge a camera by the video we watch on Vimeo. But for a non-techy layperson like myself, well, that's all I got to go by.

Anyway. Gosh. Looking at Brawley's video examples, I tentatively think that I like it better than that of the GH2. It looks really good so far. Maybe there's nothing scientific/empirical to support why that should be, in other words, maybe it's just my imagination. But this video looks less micro 4/3-y to me. And that's nice. Especially the Bondi video shot with the Canon 15-85mm. But it seems true of the 35mm video too. If it's not my imagination, and I don't think it is, I suppose it's because there are differences in how the two cameras operate? Or is it just the difference that 2.5K gives you or something?
richy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 08:37 AM   #34
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by richy View Post

Anyway. Gosh. Looking at Brawley's video examples, I tentatively think that I like it better than that of the GH2. It looks really good so far. Maybe there's nothing scientific/empirical to support why that should be, in other words, maybe it's just my imagination. But this video looks less micro 4/3-y to me. And that's nice. Especially the Bondi video shot with the Canon 15-85mm. But it seems true of the 35mm video too. If it's not my imagination, and I don't think it is, I suppose it's because there are differences in how the two cameras operate? Or is it just the difference that 2.5K gives you or something?
It does look to drop images of a coked-out-GH2 nature, to my eyes as well. Or, it looks really similar to actual S16, just cleaner stock.

What you might be seeing is color depth, or the actual real resolution being put to screen without aliasing, over-sharpening, etc. Resolution is definitely part of the perception of depth in an image, as much as people want to deny it.

And, then, there's the color depth. Which extends a long long long way into how you perceive still and motion.

Many things at work, and it's still only the beta image. There are a lot of things that can and probably will improve in a matter of weeks that'll make it even better.
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 05:31 PM   #35
ItDonnedOnMe
Premiere Member
 
ItDonnedOnMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholi View Post
And, it should be something you'd see on a bad grade, which john admits he's no colorist. More than likely he applied a strange curve, that's all. That and the fact that you aren't watching an actual 12-bit vimeo file, because a 12-bit vimeo file doesn't exist. Any issues created by a weird grade will always be exaggerated.

I'm not so sure it can be blamed on his grade - he just posted full res ungraded/graded still comparisons on his site. I grabbed the ungraded one and simply maximized the dynamic range without applying a curve and the contouring is visible, it also looks similar to his graded version so I don't think he was doing anything too extreme with the CC. Now, granted this is a JPEG and therefore 8 bit, but I'm assuming he's working with at least 10bit files in resolve so I'm surprised to see the same contouring in either place. I suspect it's whatever he's using to convert the CinemaDNG files to an edit format that's causing this, but until he's able to post a native frame it's hard to say.

On the ungraded still black's at about 25% so this shot isn't even using the full dynamic range of the camera. There's also a surprising amount of noise considering the apparent exposure.

Last edited by ItDonnedOnMe; 04-20-2012 at 05:36 PM.
ItDonnedOnMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 06:06 PM   #36
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
Caught a glimpse of the shot too. Curiously, it also doesn't look like it's the 2.5K cinemaDNG. It may or may not be, but it would make sense that it isn't the full range from the camera if it's ProRes.

That may be the culprit, or just early camera image development. We went through similar with RED in the beginning, very similar . I hope it's more ironed out before release date but it won't stop me from purchasing, either way.
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 08:33 PM   #37
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
Just got a confirmation directly from John that all footage was CinemaDNG.

So, ideally, whatever happened there will be sorted, or is explainable otherwise.
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 09:08 PM   #38
ItDonnedOnMe
Premiere Member
 
ItDonnedOnMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,832
Hopefully. The shadow noise in the red and blue channels is pretty significant.

ItDonnedOnMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 09:11 PM   #39
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
Wouldn't worry about the noise either. Plenty of time to adjust SNR before release date.

I've got a prototype of a certain yet-to-be-released large sensor camera right now in my hands and it was explicitly stated not to bother shooting above a certain ISO or in certain circumstances because the sensor is still a beta sensor. It's noisy, very clearly.

The camera is due out very soon. Not worried because I know the last iteration of this same camera was damned clean.

That's just how it goes.
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-20-2012, 09:18 PM   #40
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
Oh, and I should point out, in comparison to low grade video (4:2:0 8-bit), heavily compressed formats... uncompressed will look noisier.

Observe hacked GH2 footage. The less compressed the signal from the sensor, the more noise. Or, if you've ever messed with Viper or Genesis footage, same thing.

This still needs to be balanced, but an uncompressed signal isn't noise-free.

Resolve has a pretty good noise-reduction setting built-in, as does most finishing/color suites. It's common/typical, just like sharpening. Good thing you get the software for freeskies.

Learning? However... its not free. =P
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2012, 12:10 PM   #41
ItDonnedOnMe
Premiere Member
 
ItDonnedOnMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,832
Cool - I'll take your word for it on the prototype performance. This probably has something to do with why he hasn't been allowed to release the original raw files online yet anyway. He also hasn't mentioned anything about what he's using to convert from raw, there's a lot of room in that process to change the results significantly.

And while I do expect more visible noise with lower compression - it's the type of noise that concerned me. I would expect to see more fine, high frequency noise, but the color channels exhibit significant mid- to low-frequency noise. Again though, that could be a result of the debayering process. I suppose at this point there's not much point in analyzing it too closely - the camera will be here soon enough and we'll have plenty of real world results to determine where it fits best.
ItDonnedOnMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2012, 12:22 PM   #42
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItDonnedOnMe View Post
Cool - I'll take your word for it on the prototype performance. This probably has something to do with why he hasn't been allowed to release the original raw files online yet anyway. He also hasn't mentioned anything about what he's using to convert from raw, there's a lot of room in that process to change the results significantly.
He's using resolve to convert the raw. It's just a prototype camera, so with that comes a lotof bad things. John mentioned that there were dead pixels, that's an indicator of just how prototype it is.

The camera I have testing right now freezes when attempting to record some times. Super prototype lol.

Quote:
And while I do expect more visible noise with lower compression - it's the type of noise that concerned me. I would expect to see more fine, high frequency noise, but the color channels exhibit significant mid- to low-frequency noise. Again though, that could be a result of the debayering process. I suppose at this point there's not much point in analyzing it too closely - the camera will be here soon enough and we'll have plenty of real world results to determine where it fits best.
Agreed. It does look more alarming at first glance, but s'all good. It will be here, probably not soon enough. Arg.

The wait is gonna be pretty killer. First time I've ever considered putting off a project until the release of a camera.
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 05:39 PM   #43
FernandoAndre
Basic Member
 
FernandoAndre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 388
Well, it's July.
Any news? Can't wait to see BlackMagic videos popping on internet.

Editing: sorry. I mistook the month.
FernandoAndre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 05:40 PM   #44
Kholi
Basic Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,077
Quote:
Originally Posted by FernandoAndre View Post
Well, it's July.
Any news? Can't wait to see BlackMagic videos popping on internet.
Where did you buy your time machine and are they sold out? xDDDD

It's June. hehe.
Kholi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2012, 05:47 PM   #45
FernandoAndre
Basic Member
 
FernandoAndre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Brazil
Posts: 388
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kholi View Post
Where did you buy your time machine and are they sold out? xDDDD
It's June. hehe.
My bad. I was so fascinated looking for the footages that I pointed the mouse cursor on the Windows time&date and read "July".
FernandoAndre is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

©2003-2013 IndieTalk